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KinAlberta
Member
# Posted: 17 May 2018 11:45 - Edited by: KinAlberta
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Interesting article:

Myths about Off Highway Vehicle Use

https://donmeredith.wordpress.com/2017/01/27/myths-about-off-highway-vehicle-use /

Also interesting:


Two Fish, One Fish, No Fish—Alberta’s Fish Crisis

https://donmeredith.wordpress.com/2015/03/26/two-fish-one-fish-no-fish-albertas-fish- crisis/





Canada protects largest coniferous forest in the world - BBC

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44091169



Alberta now has world's largest expanse of protected boreal forest
“The conservation area is twice the size of Vancouver Island”

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/alberta-wildland-parks-boreal-forest-1.4663633

ICC
Member
# Posted: 17 May 2018 18:19 - Edited by: ICC
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Quoting: KinAlberta
Myths about Off Highway Vehicle Use


Sadly I have to agree. My first OHV trips were in UT with my Dad in a brand new CJ-3B in 1956. A Jeep was the first vehicle I drove, other than ranch machinery. The 3B was followed by a Scout 80 when they came out; 1960 I think. Between the two of us, Dad and I had a number of 4x4's in various degrees of work up. I have one I'm doing a build on. But I don't even like going some of the places I used to. Too crowded and too torn up.

Back in the 60's & 70's there were not that many folks with 4x4's and definitely many fewer venturing into the boonies. Now we have too many people with too many 4x4's. That is the real problem; too many people and too many 4x4's. Some of them are also idiots and that does not help. I have seen many of what used to be my favorite places degrade severely due to overuse. Even though I love ATV's for some things, they are also a curse; they make it too easy for people to abuse the outdoors. Too many of them ridden by idiots as well.

Borrego
Member
# Posted: 17 May 2018 21:43
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This sounds like more liberal BS....

The vast majority of off-roaders I know and have met are responsible people and care about the outdoors as much or usually way more than those sitting on their couches wringing their hands about this...

Maybe the off-road crowd is different in Canada, but I doubt it..

At least in my area, off-road trails are marked and for off -road use only...you cannot just drive your Jeep anywhere you want. Are the areas more 'worn' than other areas that are not used by vehicles? Of course. But that is their purpose....is mankind not supposed to venture off the highways in a vehicle? Then why have roads to get us to the off-road areas?

And what is the end-game goal here? The author did not state it, but it is clearly to get rid of off-roading entirely......be careful, next they won't want us walking on trails in the wilderness...it ruins the ambient/original state of wonderful mother nature.......silly you say? They're already going there in uber-liberal California.....keeps getting shot down by the odd coalition of hikers and Jeepers.....

toyota_mdt_tech
Member
# Posted: 18 May 2018 10:15
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I'm with Borrego. I am also a lifetime member of the Blue Ribbon Coalition, and outfit that preserves public land for the public, not from the public.

I was an avid off road motorcyclist too and all those groups were very kind to the environment, did trail work, all volunteer too, and all stayed on the trails, packed out more trash then they took in. There is always a groups of hooligans who will come in and tear it up, but the good folks all police it well, the hooligans will come in late at night or times when no one else is around.

Borrego
Member
# Posted: 18 May 2018 19:13
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I looked up the Blue Ribbon Coalition.... noticed that groups like 'Polluterwatch' and 'Greenpeace' don't like them.

Think I'll join.

Thanks, tmt

KinAlberta
Member
# Posted: 18 May 2018 20:35 - Edited by: KinAlberta
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It’s never the majority except in cases of overuse. And that appears to have become the problem in Alberta. I’d hope that in those cases trails would be upgraded.

The great damage is as always usually just the few? However read the link at the bottom.




Science offers counterpoint to the OHV controversy | lethbridgenewsNOW


“...
"Just to give you an example," said Fitch, "there was a time when our watersheds were less impacted and even though it rained, streams ran clear - now, every time it rains, they turn muddy, and we now take it as normal that when it rains, they turn muddy - it is not normal - this is a shifting benchmark."
...

Fitch noted that there have been several groups in the Oldman Watershed that have been busy trying to restore stream banks by planting willows along the stream banks, to get the vegetative root mass back, to thwart erosion.

"However, in virtually every case that I have seen, off-highway vehicle operators have driven over and destroyed all, or part, of that planting effort."

The destruction doesn't end there. Bridges have been built over streams and rivers, to keep OHV riders from crossing directly through the water. However, during the group's presentation, it was shown that the bridges were frequently unused, as OHV riders would tear through the streams within feet of function bridges. When boulders were placed in the path to keep OHVers out of the river, they would go to great lengths to remove the boulders from the path - again, right beside a bridge.

Fitch also explains that each one of the OHV roads or trails is bare soil waiting for some invasive plant species to become established and those invasive species complete with native plants and reduce biodiversity.

"I don't want to make this into some culture war between the off-highway vehicle community and the environmental community but I think the off-highway community has to get over their perceptual blindness about the damage that occurs with their recreational activity - I think they have to display a stewardship ethic and one of the ways of developing the stewardship ethic would be to accept restrictions on their use, to acknowledge that they shouldn't drive on trails that are wet, to avoid streams and rivers, and to be self-policing, as the hunting community has done for years, very successfully."

...”

https://lethbridgenewsnow.com/article/547733/science-offers-counterpoint-ohv-controve rsy

https://lethbridgenewsnow.com/article/547733/science-offers-counterpoint-ohv-controve rsy




Image:

https://lethbridgenewsnow.com/sites/default/files/styles/main_image/public/articleima ges/%284%29%20Carbondale%20Watershed%20LNN.jpg



Myths About Off Highway Vehicle Use
By Lorne Fitch, P. Biol.


https://albertawilderness.ca/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/20160800_ar_wla_myt hs_ohv_lfitch.pdf

KinAlberta
Member
# Posted: 18 May 2018 21:10
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Trespassers:





Stoney Creek farmer struggles with ATV trespassers | CBC News



Shaw is scheduled to make a presentation to Hamilton city councillors next month asking them to help him control the numerous ATV riders he says are causing havoc on his property.

They leave beer cans, he told CBC Hamilton. Last year, they appeared to cut down wood and build a bonfire. Someone else started a bonfire on his farm earlier this year.

"They go through our fields," he said. "They destroy everything. What we were hoping to use as a horse trail has been all but destroyed."

Shaw's problem isn't a new one in Hamilton's rural areas, but to him, it's particularly intense. Police have come out to his property "hundreds of times," he said. But the problem just keeps getting worse. ...”

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/atv-problems-1.4141675



ICC
Member
# Posted: 18 May 2018 22:02
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KinAlberta,

Quoting: KinAlberta
"Just to give you an example," said Fitch, "there was a time when our watersheds were less impacted and even though it rained, streams ran clear - now, every time it rains, they turn muddy, and we now take it as normal that when it rains, they turn muddy - it is not normal - this is a shifting benchmark."


That is a perfect example of what I have seen change from ther 60's - 70's to now. It's more people and more 'stupid' people, IMO. The old horse trails in some of the wilderness areas do not show the same degree of degradation.

Some of my favorite 4x4 areas are now those under restricted travel rules, such as The Maze area of Canyonlands NP, UT. Overnight stays are restricted by campsite limitation and the area is too remote to be visited by many day-trippers.

It's not just 4x4 travel either. Too many hikers on one trail make a mess too. A friend and I did a several night hike through hike through Buckskin Gulch, a slot canyon in UT in April. It requires an overnight stay and campsites are designated and require reservations thus restricting access to a number that has minimal impact on the environment. Daytrippers can go in so far and back out the same day.

ICC
Member
# Posted: 18 May 2018 22:17
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Trail-use has some similarities to septic tanks.

If you have too many people using a septic tank over too short a timespan the septic tank becomes overloaded, the sewage does not have time to break down and the tank discharge is smelly, unsafe. Too many people using a trail ends up overloading the natural systems too. Crossing stream beds in the water is very bad for the fish. IMO, it is rather arrogant to think that what we do has no impact, especially what we do with machines.

I do not know what the equitable answer is.. I would like to turn the earth's population back to what it was in the 1960's. It was about 3 billion then; now approaching 8 billion IIRC.

Bushwhacked
Member
# Posted: 19 May 2018 00:01
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Quoting: ICC
I do not know what the equitable answer is.. I would like to turn the earth's population back to what it was in the 1960's. It was about 3 billion then; now approaching 8 billion IIRC.

Did you just watch A Christmas Carol by George C Scott? HAHA There is a line in that movie where the main character says something about "A decrease in the surplus population"

There is a comedian I listen to Bill Burr, he has a couple skits on the world population (It is stand up comedy... so there are "bad words")

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQfyT4H_NPw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wq_edHqpdA

KinAlberta
Member
# Posted: 19 May 2018 09:38 - Edited by: KinAlberta
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Scroll through these pictures. Randomly picked off the internet so I know nothing about them.

Plus it looks fun and may not be a sensitive environment but the amount of traffic encouraged to go through some areas will definitely change it and anything for a ways downstream. (Not that beavers and dams in general don’t dramatically change their environments and decimate and drown on land vegetation.)

Additionally, I suspect that if a spot then turns into a mud filled mess, riders then move on to an untouched pristine clear water pool or creek to avoid getting completely stuck and drenched in mud themselves.

Overtime, like a fire, mudslide, uprooted trees, etc the changes may even be beneficial in some way. However, in the interim some vulnerable species might get wiped out.


http://www.bearclawtours.com/toct2910/index.htm

ICC
Member
# Posted: 19 May 2018 14:35
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Quoting: KinAlberta
Additionally, I suspect that if a spot then turns into a mud filled mess, riders then move on to an untouched pristine clear water pool or creek to avoid getting completely stuck and drenched in mud themselves.


That happens quite often. Also in places ohv trails become 'braided'. That is where irresponsible users leave the established trail and weave in n out of the tress, brush, whatever. Soon there is a braid of intertwined paths that kills grass and leads to more erosion. Several places in the four corners area of the southwest usa have had that happen.

toyota_mdt_tech
Member
# Posted: 19 May 2018 22:00 - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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KIN and ICC, pictures are all illegal activity.

There will always be a small criminal element in every segment. To take away everyone else's freedoms for this is not right.

It would be no different that a group who bootlegs cabins in remote areas, no permits to the point of all cabin building is shut down for everyone. That would not be fair to those who play by the roads, would it.

Another problem of always shutting areas down is the fact, more people are migrating to the fewer available space left, this creates lots of extra traffic. In my area, regions are closed all winter, open after the spring rains and close up before fall rains, crossing in water is not allowed, deviating from designated trails not allowed.

Trails are not just a path tossed in a hillside, they are engineered to avoid heavy runoff, they are built with a downhill, followed by a slight uphill, then down again. A steady downhill just turns into a river during rainfall.

Here is an example:
https://www.fs.fed.us/recreation/programs/trail-management/trailplans/index.shtml


All year long, groups of volunteers do trail maintenance, and charge no one, in fact, usually cost each volunteer out of his own pocket. Lots of OHV groups and clubs put these work parties together. They are all good stewards of the land and will keep an eye out for hooligans. You'd be surprised at just how many people are uneducated at what they are doing, a little education on the spot helps often, but then, there is a certain crowd who just don't like rules. If they are caught, they get a heavy fine, including cost of repairing damage.

There is a group who opposes all OHV use period and will use any example they can. Lots of these environmental groups

http://thefederalist.com/2017/03/10/environmentalist-protest-destroys-environment-sta nding-rock/

Have to ask what this is he is pouring into the ground and is it good for the bull trout?
Is this good for bull trout?
Is this good for bull trout?


old greybeard
Member
# Posted: 28 May 2018 13:23
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Most of the ATV owners around me trespass on private property and State land constantly. I find they are the laziest hunters and usually fat. They will break new trails instead of getting out and moving a log. You can walk 1 mile in to hunt State land and they'll illegally use the same trail. Very little enforcement, absolutely no respect for property rights and the environment.
I do use a ATV to haul game and firewood, and a dual sport bike on legal dirt roads and single tracks. I used to trespass as well but no longer, its just plain wrong. And damaging.
It would help if PA would open more trails in the millions of acres of State lands, they take our registration $$ with very few trails and little enforcement, most going to state worker pensions so they can retire at 55-56 with full benefits.

KinAlberta
Member
# Posted: 28 May 2018 15:58
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Quoting: ICC



That happens quite often. Also in places ohv trails become 'braided'. That is where irresponsible users leave the established trail and weave in n out of the tress, brush, whatever. Soon there is a braid of intertwined paths that kills grass and leads to more erosion. Several places in the four corners area of the southwest usa have had that happen.


I think the impact depends on the location. When there are no stream beds, or sensitive land, such widening of the trail might just cause some ruts, loss of vegetation and wind erosion. (However, that’s happening on a far larger scale on vast amounts of cultivated land already. Then there’s population expansion, hydro and other development that is eradicating far more than atv’ers ever could.)

That said, stupid uncaring behaviour is sad and moronic but some perspective is needed.

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