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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 24 Jan 2016 15:57
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I'd decided on a 14 X 24. Was looking at cabin ideas for fun and recently found pics of this one. Wow, if my builder could do this within budget (he wouldn't have to finish the interior or do foundation work or that big deck), then I'd bag the gambrel design and go with this!
http://www.truthistreason.net/14-x-24-owner-built-cabin-wloft
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neb
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# Posted: 24 Jan 2016 16:20
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That is nice.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 24 Jan 2016 16:39
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The plans are available BUT they're packaged with plans for two other, smaller cabins, and the package is $60. I don't WANT the plans for the other two, just this one!
We'd have to modify a bit because I want stairs going to the loft, not a sturdy fold-down ladder (which is something my builder offers as an option, too). I don't want a space on the first floor designated as a bedroom, anyway, as that would make the cabin a two-bedroom and alter the requirements for my building permit. Septic, water, and such are based on the number of bedrooms.
Otherwise, I really like this design and layout.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 24 Jan 2016 17:22
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Sigh, I really have to quit vacillating between gambrel and gable because time is of the essence. I think that to make as much of the second-floor loft truly usable like this one, it would take more structural modifications than a gambrel. But gambrels are harder to insulate.
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rockies
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# Posted: 24 Jan 2016 17:48
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Hi. I'm guessing that your cabin link is a version of the 14 x 24 Michigan cabin featured at Countryplans?
http://www.countryplans.com/lemay.html
The one in your link shows a bedroom on the main floor where a kitchen is here. Yours is a nice plan but since you don't want a bedroom downstairs then this version also has a small built-in staircase up to the loft rather than a pull down ladder.
Personally I've always hated Gambrel roofs. They're more complicated to build and insulate and they always remind me of the "Amityville Horror" movie lol. They do provide a bit more headroom upstairs but you can't really do anything with the furniture layout other than putting low cabinets under the sloping parts. If you want more headroom with a gable roof I say just raise the loft walls a bit.
The nice thing about these plans is they also provide a materials list.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 24 Jan 2016 18:04
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rockies
Yes, that's the one! I linked to this blog because it had a lot of good interior pics and different commentary, concisely given. I DO like this cabin. The owner-builder has done a lot of what I had planned, from water storage with a pump in the crawl space to solar, and the layout is close to what I had in mind. But it cost him $15K doing much of the work himself. My cost, hiring everything done, would likely be far more. (Mind you, I do have separate budgets for the foundation, solar, plumbing, appliances, etc.)
LOL @ Amityville horror. The insulation bit does bother me but I think it's doable. I keep weighing the pros and cons. There remain more pros to the gambrel. I could do a half-loft with more usable space upstairs, giving me a ceiling over my bathroom and kitchen and then a cathedral ceiling over my living room so the woodstove doesn't have to cut through my loft. I like that.
Also, I want a carport attached to the cabin, for my car and for firewood and other storage. The gambrel roof will provide a better slope for the carport.
I know I'm obsessing, LOL, but I'm selling everything to do this and this is my retirement home so I can't afford to choose wrongly.
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Don_P
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# Posted: 24 Jan 2016 19:09
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That plan works best with a structural ridgebeam, this also opens up the possibility of shed dormers pretty easily.
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rockies
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# Posted: 24 Jan 2016 19:32
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Don_P
Are you thinking of a structural ridgebeam for both roof types or just a gable?
One other thing about a gambrel roof. It is usually hard (or ugly) to add dormers off the sides of them. Everyone thinks of windows in the gable walls but how about some down the length of the cabin? A gable roof set on 2-3 foot loft walls could have a shed or gable dormer added on to it without it being too complicated to build and also having it look nice. An example of this would be the shed dormer added onto the cabin built by "Colin and Justin" on their show.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 24 Jan 2016 19:33
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Quoting: Julie2Oregon I don't want a space on the first floor designated as a bedroom, anyway, as that would make the cabin a two-bedroom and alter the requirements for my building permit. Septic, water, and such are based on the number of bedrooms.
Julie, its not a bedroom downstairs, its a "Den" or "Study" room. I know a guy who did just that.
OK, I believe that guy is a member here. I remember seeing his post and pix before. I am pretty sure I saw them here, long ago. With the woodstove in the corner, I certainly would of run the pipe through the roof, especially with decking around the pipe, but if I had to run it out the wall, I would of certainly ran it out on a gable end, not where he did it. Aside from that, I like it.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 24 Jan 2016 19:34
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Quoting: Don_P That plan works best with a structural ridgebeam, this also opens up the possibility of shed dormers pretty easily.
What is a structural ridgebeam?
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 24 Jan 2016 19:40
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Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech With the woodstove in the corner, I certainly would of run the pipe through the roof, especially with decking around the pipe, but if I had to run it out the wall, I would of certainly ran it out on a gable end, not where he did it.
Yes, Toyota, I agree -- I don't want stove pipe out the wall. I plan to locate my stove rather centrally, between the kitchen and living room for a couple of reasons but if I DO have to put it into a corner unexpectedly, the pipe will still go up through the roof.
This really is a great cabin. Aside from the full loft and gable roof, the interior floor plan is very close to what I've planned for my own.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 24 Jan 2016 19:47
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Personally speaking, I don't want dormers. If I did, I wouldn't even consider a gambrel but I wouldn't want them on a gable, either. Call me paranoid, irrational, or whatever, but I'm leery of a box with seams emerging from a roof when you're dealing with ice and snow. Especially with metal roofing. I'd worry about leaks, ice and water pooling, etc.
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Just
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# Posted: 24 Jan 2016 22:32
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Quoting: Julie2Oregon I want stairs
Your right like it all but the stair.
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 24 Jan 2016 23:43
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Here is something to consider. A room is not legally a bedroom if it does not have a closet,door or window.
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Don_P
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# Posted: 24 Jan 2016 23:47
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Quoting: Julie2Oregon What is a structural ridgebeam?
I've attached a pic of one in a 1-1/2 story with a loft. The ridgebeam and support posts are in red. Basically the ridgebeam is capable of supporting the roof from that beam, which is the correct way to frame a 1-1/2 story without rafter ties (which would be head bangers in a 1.5 story). So for that type of house a ridgebeam is the way it should be framed. It opens the possibilities of easy shed dormers like Rockies pictured but your concerns are valid.
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Jabberwocky
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# Posted: 25 Jan 2016 09:11 - Edited by: Jabberwocky
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Julie, I'm not sure why you are thinking that Gambrel roofs are hard to insulate. I guess it depends on your approach though... I was looking at building a 16x20 Gambrel roof cabin for a while. The plan was to insulate on the outside of the building rather than inside - a membrane such as Grace Ice & Water shield on the decking, then rigid foam insulation on top of that with seams sealed with appropriate tape. Purlins on top of that would hold the roofing deck (a second layer of OSB most likely) and roofing material.
Such a method costs a little bit more in materials (for the 2nd layer of OSB and purlins, some tape, and a slight premium on the roofing membrane) but the rest of the stuff is essential anyway. I think the total additional expenses for that method came out to around $2500-3000, but it is a highly efficient method for energy efficiency.
*Edit: Actually in lieu of the roofing membrane on the decking you can sheathe with Huber Zip Wall OSB which, in conjunction with the tape, creates your vapor and air barrier... That's a little cheaper and less steps than the first description I offered.
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azgreg
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# Posted: 25 Jan 2016 12:59
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Quoting: Julie2Oregon The plans are available BUT they're packaged with plans for two other, smaller cabins, and the package is $60. I don't WANT the plans for the other two, just this one! We'd have to modify a bit because I want stairs going to the loft, not a sturdy fold-down ladder (which is something my builder offers as an option, too). I don't want a space on the first floor designated as a bedroom, anyway, as that would make the cabin a two-bedroom and alter the requirements for my building permit. Septic, water, and such are based on the number of bedrooms. Otherwise, I really like this design and layout.
I know you don't want to spend the $60 for unnecessary parts of the plans, but if you do you get excellent support on his site for your build and guidance on any changes you would like to make.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 25 Jan 2016 22:58
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Quoting: silverwaterlady Here is something to consider. A room is not legally a bedroom if it does not have a closet,door or window.
Very good to know. Thanks, silverwaterlady!
Don_P
That makes a lot of sense. Looks like the cabin I posted didn't do that.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 25 Jan 2016 23:29
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Jabberwocky
I'd read so many pro and con articles about gambrels that note the big disadvantage is insulating them. Thank you for the instructions! I'm planning on a metal roof -- is it easier or worse with metal, do you know?
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 26 Jan 2016 02:04
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Quoting: azgreg I know you don't want to spend the $60 for unnecessary parts of the plans, but if you do you get excellent support on his site for your build and guidance on any changes you would like to make.
Yeah, if I were committed to this plan and I were building it myself, then $60 would be a drop in the bucket. But just to take a look and get some ideas? No, not so much, when it comes packaged with a lot of things that I'm definitely NOT interested in.
Basically, I'm doing a bunch of research on my own and cementing my ideas to discuss with my builder so his engineering guy can draw up everything and do the packet of info for the county building department. I'm paying for that. I'd pay $15 or $20 for the plans to the 14 X 24 for some ideas but $60 is just too much for my purposes.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 26 Jan 2016 07:59
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 Julie... Gee, your path keeps reminding me of my own (to building my place).
Tin roofing has many advantages over asphalt, durability, light weight, better rain harvesting etc etc ... Cost is comparable to shingle or lower usually. Easier to install and pro's can do it quite fast.
Gambrel Roofs are really no more difficult than a standard gable roof... Simplest roof structure is the Shed Style. Insulation "can" be tricky depending on materials used in the structure & choice of insulation. You do get more shoulder room and headroom and it's easier to place furnishings or materials against / closer to "the walls".
For example, I'm using solid ISO Sheets, which would have meant cutting in angles for the gambrel. Fibreglass needs to be carefully installed and retainers used to hold it in place. Roxul Batts can be "press fit" into the rafter cavities without extra support (more R value and less other issues with Roxul / Rockwool). Spray Foam of course doe4sn't care about shapes.
Roof Structure & Design:
Some may disagree BUT IMO, it's better to go with thicker rafters 2x6min 2x8 preferred simply because you can get more insulation in there and get a stronger roof overall. The best way to manage the heat is to deal with it before it's a problem. As you noted in my Cabin Build thread, lighter colour tin rejects heat as opposed to absorbing it but then you still have to manage moving it away from the shell... I really think that the Texas Cool Roof is best all around for not only Hot Texas but Cold Canada as well and in Oregon you'll get ample hot & cold seasons.
A point on Small Cabins / Tiny Homes on trailers etc... Many of these designs / plans have narrow / shallow Eaves and/or almost no overhangs. That is a major design issue as eaves are intended to keep "wet" away from the building sides and the further out it is, the more it reduces splash/splatter onto the building sides. In my own build and due to the proximity of trees to the cabin I went with a 24" Eave Overhang. You can build with no eaves at all BUT that would tricky and seriously reduce what you can use on siding.
BTW: During our many idea planning tossing sessions, we ran the gamut of looking at commercial plans, self made plans (which is what we used in the end) and freebies that are out there... We did buy Commercial Plans from Cad North-West Plan C0480A 20x24 w/ loft for $209 USD (PDF & Paper). While we did not use this plan they shipped immediately, answered many questions on the phone (good support) and by my reviewing what their plans were like, it was easier for me to provide the drawings my building inspector needed for our place. CADNW has many plans for a lot of things, here's their main site which also has a pile of free plans Cad Northwest Custom Home Design (Oregon)
Hope I didn't add more confusion to the pile.
Steve
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 26 Jan 2016 08:58
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Quoting: silverwaterlady Here is something to consider. A room is not legally a bedroom if it does not have a closet,door or window
And that window must be big enough to climb out and the bottom of that window can not be more than 36" from floor. (ingress/egress) 
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Jabberwocky
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# Posted: 26 Jan 2016 09:34
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Quoting: Julie2Oregon I'd read so many pro and con articles about gambrels that note the big disadvantage is insulating them. Thank you for the instructions! I'm planning on a metal roof -- is it easier or worse with metal, do you know?
I've been thinking about the reason why Gambrel roofs are considered "hard to insulate." Others who actually have that opinion can verify, but I would suppose that it is because, unlike flat ceilings with open attics, you can't blow cellulose insulation in them. If you are insulating them from the inside (in-between the rafters) you are pretty much limited to, as Steve said, batt insulation, rigid foam, or spray foam. Since the lower part of a Gambrel roof is not really a wall, and it's not really a roof either, it can seem a little perplexing.
Batt insulation, for a ceiling, is probably not considered adequate for your climate (Oregon right?) - and so yeah, if that's your only option, they are hard to insulate. Rigid foam and spray foam are better for such an application, but they they are more expensive, spray foam in particular.
The method I described is using rigid foam sheets, like Poly-iso (as Steve said he's using) however these go on top of the roof rather than in-between the rafters. This eliminates thermal bridging through the rafters and provides a continuous insulation barrier, and is therefore more effective at keeping the inside separate from the outside. Another advantage to this method is that it eliminates the need for thicker rafters. Steve is right - if you are planning on insulating from the inside of the building and/or planning on using fiberglass batts, having deeper rafters like 2x6s or 2x8s is much better since you have more room for thicker batts. If you insulate on the outside however, you do not need thicker rafters and therefore your lumber costs are going to be less. 2x4s on a small cabin, adequately braced and spaced are sufficient. While you will be saving in lumber costs, your insulation cost will go up some because of using rigid insulation instead of batt, but ultimately it boils down to what you and your builder feel is best for your budget, climate, and preference.
As for metal versus asphalt, the method I was describing was for a metal roof - hence the purlins for screwing the metal into. If you go with an asphalt roof the purlins aren't necessary. But in the interests of full disclosure, I have quite a bit of experience roofing with shingles, I have NO experience installing metal roofs, I just understand the theory behind them. On my personal project, I will choose a light colored metal roof for the same reasons Steve mentioned.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 26 Jan 2016 09:44
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@Jabber: I'm putting 7-1/2" of ISO between my rafters. I had hoped to put 2" of Foil Faced ISO on top of the roof sheathing BUT it jumped to $35 a 4x8 sheet so I opted out but stuck with the basics of the Cool Roof design for a vented roof.
You can use blown in Wet Cellulose insulation in a roof but you have to use the special mesh fabric instead of straight Poly Vapor barrier. Standard blown in stuff will settle and leave cold pockets and gaps.
Cost differences between 2x4 & 2x6 on a small building like what Julie plans on or what I am building (20x24) really doesn't add up to much but the benefit of 2x6 outweighs the small extra cost.
I went with Forest Green roof which will pickup solar gain BUT my cabin is in a low solar gain spot due to the abundant tree shade coverage which should counteract or at least reduce the solar gain.
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razmichael
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# Posted: 26 Jan 2016 12:54
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I went with a Gambrel roof but made the decision along with the planned budgeting for spray foam insulation. The structural Ridge Beam was a triple LVL that was delivered with a crane so very easy for the two of us to get in place! Our front loft is built over the front deck and overhanging inside for a 10x16 space. I used 10' walls and dropped the lofts down to 8' this provides an amazing amount of living space. I have an easy 10x12 area that I can stand full up in and any furniture fits fairly close to the wall so not much wasted space.
No problem with insulation using spray foam but it will be more difficult when I get around to putting up a ceiling covering (next years project).
A structural ridge beam needs to be able to transmit the weight down to the foundation - although this can be done through headers etc, I chose to use built up posts so this did limit placement of windows/doors. However, the posts are all "built in" to the walls so no posts in the middle of a room.
In some places the issue may be the Gambrel rafters passing inspection without engineering sign-off - a problem I did not need to worry about. Lots of detailed instructions on building these approved for agricultural buildings but not so much for residential. I overbuilt agricultural specs and used Simpson hangers and ties on the rafters.
My build photos are here if you want to see:
Build Photos
Build story My Build
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azgreg
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# Posted: 26 Jan 2016 13:03
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Quoting: Julie2Oregon Basically, I'm doing a bunch of research on my own and cementing my ideas to discuss with my builder so his engineering guy can draw up everything and do the packet of info for the county building department. I'm paying for that. I'd pay $15 or $20 for the plans to the 14 X 24 for some ideas but $60 is just too much for my purposes.
Maybe if you contact John he might be willing to separate the plans for you at a cheaper rate. I don't know.
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Jabberwocky
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# Posted: 26 Jan 2016 13:07 - Edited by: Jabberwocky
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Quoting: Steve_S @Jabber: I'm putting 7-1/2" of ISO between my rafters. I had hoped to put 2" of Foil Faced ISO on top of the roof sheathing BUT it jumped to $35 a 4x8 sheet so I opted out but stuck with the basics of the Cool Roof design for a vented roof. You can use blown in Wet Cellulose insulation in a roof but you have to use the special mesh fabric instead of straight Poly Vapor barrier. Standard blown in stuff will settle and leave cold pockets and gaps. Cost differences between 2x4 & 2x6 on a small building like what Julie plans on or what I am building (20x24) really doesn't add up to much but the benefit of 2x6 outweighs the small extra cost.
7.5" huh? Wow! That's a lot, but you are in Canada right? I know it's beautiful up there, but I gotta admit, it's nice not having such cold climate issues to deal with down here. I wouldn't think Julie would need nearly that much. I'm planning on using 3/4" poly-iso which is supposedly good for R5, but I'm going to put about three layers down with staggered joints. Here they are $15 each, so if you are talking about a single sheet of ISO that's 2" thick, that price sounds about right.
I agree with you about the rafter thicknesses. The cost difference is negligible. However, again, it would depend on how I intended to insulate. If I were to insulate the rafter bays, you bet I would be using 2x6s or larger. But if all of my insulation is going on the outside, I figure I might as well save what I can and go smaller.
As for the wet cellulose, I've heard of it, but don't know anything about it. Might be a good option to investigate though.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 26 Jan 2016 13:42
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Yep, I'm in North East Ontario Canada (agri zone 4a), so 7.5" of paper-faced ISO = R37.5 and having a 1.75" airspace between the roof sheathing & tin with active air channels & thermal break from the structure will (supposed to anyways) improve efficiency. The math came back to an equivalent of R45 due to the air-channel. Paper Faced ISO is rated at R5 per inch where Foil Faced rates to R5.5/6.0.
Wet Cellulose has gained a lot in popularity over the last couple of years mostly because once installed and setup it won't shift, settle or move. It's also treated with a bunch of stuff to make it rodent / insect repellant, fire resistant, mould, mildew & decay resistant as well. While pretty cost effective, it's laden with an assortment of chemicals, some of which I am sensitive to so that was a scratch for me.
For me the ISO was the best solution given that I bought it all from a commercial roofer for real cheap, it doesn't off gas + bugs/critters dislike it. Because I got both 4'x4' & 4'x8' they are to be cut to press fit tight between rafters with offset seams which are to be glued together.
Costs were for the ISO:
2.0"x4'x4'=$3 ea
3.5"x4'x4'=$7 ea
3.5"x4'x8'=$14 ea
4.0"x4'x4'=$8 ea
4.0"x4'x4' XPS RoofMate(tm)=$10ea (used for my Frost Protected Slab Foundation)
Certainly beats the heck out of retail pricing.
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creeky
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# Posted: 26 Jan 2016 14:00
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It pays to haunt the kijiji/craigslist options. I bought my last 2" polyiso foil faced (as new) for 10 bucks a sheet off a guy who built a bigger home and had them as leftovers taking up space in his basement.
Exterior insulation the way your discussing Jabberwocky is much easier and more reliable an install than cutting foam between the studs. Good thinking.
I built my third small house that way. Two winters in I'm still agog with the efficiency. With the low propane prices this year I'll be heating the building for under $150 bucks. And that's with the new to me girlfriend turning up the heat. smile.
One disadvantage is noise off the tin roof. I am considering roxul between the studs and sheathing the walls with 1/4" ply just to reduce the rain noise. If you do a tin roof with just polyiso applied exterior to the roof I would suggest running some silicone beads or spray foam on the purlins, carefully not to block air movement, but to keep the roof from becoming a giant tin drum head. I have sprayed along the edges of the roof and that has considerably reduced the noise volume under heavy rain.
* I'm in a northern Canadian climate just a few miles south of Steve.
* I chose blue tin for this site as it is in full shade and uses the "cool roof" design I have now built 3 times.
* you can see my builds at my blog creektreat dot ca. search shizzer shack or washroom for my second roof and chalet for the third.
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Jabberwocky
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# Posted: 26 Jan 2016 16:02
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Quoting: creeky One disadvantage is noise off the tin roof.
Oh, but Creeky, that is EXACTLY what my wife loves about tin roofs, the more rain noise the better! LOL
Quoting: Steve_S Costs were for the ISO: 2.0"x4'x4'=$3 ea 3.5"x4'x4'=$7 ea 3.5"x4'x8'=$14 ea 4.0"x4'x4'=$8 ea 4.0"x4'x4' XPS RoofMate(tm)=$10ea (used for my Frost Protected Slab Foundation)
Wow, those are great prices!
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