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rayyy
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# Posted: 23 Jan 2011 08:40
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lol thanks for that advice.
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DLMcBeath
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# Posted: 23 Jan 2011 09:40
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Quoting: hebegbz Even if you are completely safe, with sensors and alarms, and cracks and everything. Calculate the number of pounds of fuel that you are burning into the air that you are breathing. Even propane makes lots of soot and water vapor, neither one is good in your living space. You can't see it, but it's there.
I think you guys are over-reacting, I know several people that heat their homes all winter long with vent free space heaters. My neighbor heats his house with kerosene heaters and has for the 13 years I've lived here. None of these people have had any problems heating this way.
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smart
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# Posted: 3 Feb 2011 15:56
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I have a really old one..works great. 1 hour to heat the same size space. rental on tank annual-85.00
monthly includes wall heater and stove only on 50 runs about 100 per mo. Mountain Propane awesome
Washington State -area Quimper Peninsula
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redsy
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# Posted: 8 Sep 2011 11:39
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CONVERTING - If you want to take a non-vent furnace or any appliance and convert to having a vent, take note. To me it sounds fairly simple to do, however you run into the issue - can the pilot light or the burner handle the draft or the wind that may be forced into the chamber. You don't want that to go out, cant hurt you if the chamber is 100% vented to the outside, and sealed off from inside, but might get cold at night.
EFFICIENCY - To me if you have any flame inside you living space, it is using up the oxygen, the oxygen will be replaced by drawing in air from any crack in a wall, window, door. This is putting cold air indoors and will need to be heated. Better way is to have a sealed and vented unit that reheats the warm air already in the building over and over. stepping outside from time to time should be sufficiant to refresh the stale air, and no co inside.
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not overeacting
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# Posted: 8 Sep 2011 14:54
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Sorry. I am a MD and we see a death every couple winters from CO poisoning. Just because you know a couple people who have not had problems does not make it safe. I am sure you know many smokers who are into their 70's and 80's with nothing wrong other than leather skin, does not mean cigarettes are safe (my personal pet peeve).
Is saving at most a couple hundred bucks worth risking your life? CO is silent and deadly. Plus 1 gallon of propane creates about 0.8 gallon of water vapour - sucks to have that in your small cabin. Ideally vent. If not make sure your cabin is not airtight - eg. windows open. And in both cases have a CO monitor.
Quoting: DLMcBeath I think you guys are over-reacting, I know several people that heat their homes all winter long with vent free space heaters. My neighbor heats his house with kerosene heaters and has for the 13 years I've lived here. None of these people have had any problems heating this way.
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bugs
Member
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# Posted: 8 Sep 2011 18:41
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not overeacting.... Is this your first post??? Welcome to the forum. Look forward to seeing your cabin pictures. You make a very valid point regarding the increased humidity. Just what person needs is a moldy cabin.
Up here in the middle of the frozen north of the continent (.... +34C today.... cannot believe I am discussing heaters ahh well it will be -34C soon) , if my memory holds true we had about 15 reported accidental deaths (pop 1.1 million) due to CO poisoning (Sadly some were in a nursing home my late father resided in. ) last winter. All were related to natural gas furnaces/boilers not a portable propane heater in sight. We also had a couple of house fires and explosions due to natural gas furnaces too.
Yes CO is deadly. Yes, have a working detector (at nose height or on the floor as CO is heavier than air if I recall my chemistry.) Yes crack a window for fresh air with any heating whether it is natural gas, propane, a wood stove, etc etc etc and don't use a heater when you are asleep... toss an extra blanket on or, if all else fails.... snuggle up to the partner.
Complacency is usually the real killer.....even at home.
For me I am more worried about the 1.5 hour drive through the maniac drivers than sleeping with a propane heater that is turned off and the window cracked. Or how about this:
http://www.atomicheater.com/
or an in window propane heater. No holes to cut!!! Fingers saved.
Anyway just my Cdn 2cents worth.... Are we at par again??? Hmmm.
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Just
Member
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# Posted: 8 Sep 2011 21:02
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I'm with ' Not ' 3 times in my life i have been very very ill from CO. I was wide awake all three times ! once in a ice fishing shanty with a buddy heater and a small window open !!!! once in a open tractor heat -houser with a bad muffler clamp !! and once back in the 60's, in a home combine cab ,with a colman heater under the seat. beleve me and the others above you don't want it and you would not want to see your family with Co. poisoning!!! the risk is not worth a life why take it at any price !!!!
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bugs
Member
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# Posted: 8 Sep 2011 22:07
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Just
With all due respect.... and I mean it it.
Your occasions of CO poisoning sound odd or I don't understand the terminology. The ice fishing shack I can understand if the open window is up high (above nose level) and the place fills with CO at sitting/jigging level. The heat houser on a tractor I do not understand. The "heat housers" that I rode in were so open you froze your behind off and the heat all came from the engine not the exhaust. And, the third, combine cab, my gosh what were you folks doing with a coleman heater under the seat in a combine? I harvested more acres than I want to remember below freezing in a open combine (no cab... skidoo suits were a blessing) but we never heated the platform..... grain dust and dry equals the Pearly Gates!!! You folks definitely lived on the edge!!! Glad you are still with us.
Anyway everyone has their level of risk whether it be heating a cabin, heating a house, drivin' drunk, smokin, or whatever.
Just a ps: The only time we had a problem with CO was when my dad was working on the car and forgot to vent the exhaust. The dog saved him by waking him up. The dog did not save him from chemical poisoning when he was out spraying herbicides on a calm evening in an ac equipped tractor cab. Dad came home seeing four of everything... including my mom!! Took him about two months to get back to seeing normal again.
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Just
Member
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# Posted: 9 Sep 2011 09:18
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the shanty had a 6 opening at the peek above my head . could have been the wind direction . I'm not sure all i know is I was ill for two hours after .
the heat houser was just as you said but a clamp had come loose under the hood allowing the fumes to come back with the heat from the engine.
hear in ontario we combine corn in the winter there is no way anything in that field will burn there is no dust the grain is often 30% moisture. it is true there was no open window in the cab untill the next day when i cut one in the roof!!
But that is not the point .the point is there is always going to be some one around as stupid as" me "do you want them to die in your cabin !!!
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PlicketyCat
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# Posted: 9 Sep 2011 17:30
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Not all vent-free appliances are created equal. Some are definitely more dangerous than others, especially in enclosed spaces.
If you're considering a vent-free appliance for your cabin, there is a lot of sizing and safety information available at http://www.ventfree.org/
Be advised that most manufacturers of quality vent-free appliances also manufacture direct-vent appliances and firmly stand behind both technologies.
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Erins#1Mom
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# Posted: 9 Sep 2011 17:51
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MtnDon,
I'm not sure about your background but you explained CO poisoning very well. As a nurse in a hyperbaric center, we treat CO poisonings year round. Someone working on a car in closed space, landscraper working in his greenhouse and generator malfunctioned, elderly couple with woodburner with a flue that needed cleaning. Last winter, lost a 50 year old couple who were running a generator in their drive under garage one night (power outage). One can't be careful enough.
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 9 Sep 2011 20:30
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A number of years ago I had several experiences, all second hand, that prompted me to research CO thoroughly. (1) My father was slowly being poisoned, inadvertently, by the poor maintenance being done on his company owned delivery vehicle. A CO test during work hours helped find the source of his troubles. He survived that and the vehicle was repaired. 2. Not so lucky; a couple of friends died in a canvas wall tent when the wood burning outfitter stove filled their tent with CO on a cold Montana hunt. Those events were close together in time and sparked my interest. At the time I was a big time user of small catalytic heaters in tents and vehicles.
In later, more recent years my mountain neighbors had a serious brush with CO poisoning. They were having headaches that developed overnight and would clear up when they went off to work. That would repeat after they would return. I heard about it and told them to borrow a CO meter from the lab (Los Alamos National Lab). I forget their reading but it was very high. That came from a maladjusted propane fueled refrigerator.
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 10 Sep 2011 02:08
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There are all kind of people. Some like to take risks like go without seat belts,use unvented gas appliances to save a few bucks,build unsafe houses, place outdoor propane tanks indoors. I've seen the photos on this web site. Than there are the people that take every precaution and do things right and by the book. The sad thing about the people that don't follow rules for safe living end up hurting innocent people.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 10 Sep 2011 09:27
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Very true. Sometimes I feel compelled to point out the issues with the ways some things are put together or done. Frequently I realize there is no point in trying to convince that party they are in the wrong or unsafe. My efforts are made to try and prevent some other person who comes along, sees something and perceives it as okay, a fine way to build, do a task, whatever.
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Mossyoak
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# Posted: 13 Sep 2011 14:20
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MtnDon,
What size BTU heater are you using in your cabin? How well does it do when you are not useing the wood stove? How well is your cabin insulated? Just trying to get an idea of sizing.
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 13 Sep 2011 14:40
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The cabin is about 432 sq ft of heated space, 8 foor ceiling no loft. R18 walls (R19 in a 2x6 = R18), R25 floor, R45 attic. Low-e windows.
The heater is rated at 18,ooo BTU. But with the 8800 foot altitude it is really only producing something like 14,000 BTU. It has been fitted with the high altitude orifice to ensure it does not burn too rich. You lose approx 3% for every 1000 feet about sea level.
At this time of yeat the propane heater can raise the interior temp 20 or so degrees F and maintain with no problems. Later when it has dropped to below freezing the propane heater itself would take way too long to raise the temperature of the cabin interior fifty and more degrees. Once the interior has been raised to 72+ with the wood stove and the propane heater, the propane heater does seem to be able to maintain a favorable interior temp. Although I must say that at the coldest times it does seem to operate frequently. I see $$ signs when I hear it click on so I like to use wood a lot of the time.
This time of the year I'll probably only build a wood fire once when we arrive, maybe add a few pieces of wood once, then let the fire die out. If the night temp outside drops to 40"s the propane might come on during the night. I have it set for around 66 degrees then. So maybe a small wood fire once in the morning again. With cooking there is the additional heat from the propane range.
The heater we have can operate with or without the AC powered blower. Not all blower equipped heaters can.
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Mossyoak
Member
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# Posted: 14 Sep 2011 08:53
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Thanks for the info MtnDon,
I will look around and see if I can find something a little biger than 18K btu, or go with a combo woodstove/ heater. Been useing a 30K btu vent free heater but would like to get away from it. I Like the woodstove idea but they do take up valuable space in a small cabin.
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bobrok
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# Posted: 3 Oct 2011 12:36 - Edited by: bobrok
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It's that time of the year again and I'm trying to fully understand vented propane heaters before I make the commitment to swap out my non-vented one. I am reading and re-reading posts here and product descriptions I have a question.
I have no power to run a furnace circulating fan, and my non-vented heater is mounted on an interior wall. If I replace this with a vented propane unit can I vent it up through the ceiling and across the attic crawl space and out through a gable opening that faces downwind?
Someplace (maybe another thread here, maybe somewhere else?) I read that vented heaters have the exhaust run through a center pipe while the air intake pipe surrounds this and acts to not only cool the exhaust but also preheat the incoming air for combustion.
Is this the way vented heaters work or did I dream this up?
Does a non-powered vent have to go straight up or can I run it up 8' to the attic and for about a 10 foot horizontal run (with an upward angle) to a gable vent? I'd really lke to avoid cutting a hole in my nice, tight, metal roof.
Thanks for all comments.
bob
CB: you may want to move this to the 'vented heaters' thread but I wanted to build on the conversation here also. tnx.
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 3 Oct 2011 19:52
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All the direct vent heaters I'm familiar with vent out the wall.
You are correct about the two concentric pipes, exhaust surrounded by the fresh air intake.
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bobrok
Member
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# Posted: 4 Oct 2011 08:13 - Edited by: bobrok
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Thanks Don, I'm gonna get to know my propane dealer a little better; pick his brain, ask questions and then shop for a vented unit.
I also discovered NFPA 54, chapter 12, which seems to address my question in great detail!!!
I <3 the internet!
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neat
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# Posted: 13 Nov 2011 19:58
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I purchased a new direct vent wall propane heater from Northern tool, only to have my propane installer tell me I should not put it under a window due to icing and the risk of the CO2 coming back into the house...I use multiple CO2 detectors as well as keep a window open with my current propane non vented heaters elsewhere in our home, but can anyone shed a light on whether I can place this under a window? All the outside walls have windows and I would prefer not to use a non vented one as the film gets on the windows/ Thank you
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Mtnviewer
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# Posted: 13 Nov 2011 20:38 - Edited by: Mtnviewer
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In reply to the last two posts, I have found that propane heat seems to give off A LOT of humidity (& other potentially harmful gas if there is no fresh air), along with the heat. At least that has been my experience. Perhaps regulations are different here or have changed or the installer screwed up 8 years ago, but my non-vented wall heater is under a sealed widow. The window does show condensation when the heater is used. However due to the cost of propane, I haven't used the heater much at all & in fact regret buying & installing it, though as my supposedly primary heat source, it prevents my house insurance from being more of a rip off & legal scam than it already is. The wall heater IS NOT in a living space so it didn't legally need to be vented. If it were, then the install & type of heater had to be different. Bedrooms are very regulated for propane heat & may not be insurable. You may not want to cheap out here as a wrong unit or installation could void your insurance, if you have any, as well as cause a death if carbon monoxide were to build up or a fire. They can be scary IMO.
I have a dedicated cold air intake pipe due to both heaters.
My instant on propane water heater has a powered exhaust vent because the vent had to be put to run under my elevated porch to read an exterior wall. I recall the installer saying something about there being a minimum horizontal run before it had to have a powered fan exhaust because of the possibility / probability of condensation, especially in winter. My hot water heater propane pipe is also wrapped in a certain type of foam insulation to lessen condensation. I don't use it much but I've never seen any condensation in or out of the vent pipe.
So it may be the case that humidity & condensation from burning propane could affect your type of unit in your particular install location given local regulations & insurance requirements.
Personally I hate the propane type of heat, the rip off cost, the hassle for refilling (minimum 500 liters for a delivery), the tank rental cost, the danger of propane heat & the resulting fumes.
I'm getting rid of my propane appliances / dependency. I had the huge propane rental tank removed this summer & my account closed. I still use propane for my fridge via 20 lb. bottles but that will end soon I hope. I heat & cook with a Blaze King woodstove & occasionally with electricity generated when I charge my house batteries with my Kubota diesel generator. Propane has a one appliance use for me. It can't charge my batteries unlike the diesel fuel. I would never consider a propane as fuel for a generator engine.
Do you have any alternatives to propane appliances?
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 14 Nov 2011 18:58
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Propane does produce lots of water vapor; that's where a vented heater shines above the non vented type. It still produces the humidity but that goes outside.
Heaters should not be installed under or within a certain distance of windows that can open. There is the danger of the window being opened and the exhaust gases entering the living space. All vented heater will come with installation directions that include the clearances from windows, propane tanks, etc. etc. The directions also list clearances inside the cabin, both to the sides and clearance above.
The Northern Toll propane heater manuals can usually be downloaded before purchase.
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bushbunkie
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# Posted: 17 Nov 2011 12:34
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Thanks MtnDon, that's good advice...especially when your working within the limited outdoor wall space of a 10' x 10' cabin...and you have three windows!I will definitely install it on the wall without windows.
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 29 Dec 2011 19:18
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I have had ventless heaters for years and have had no problems. As long as the area is well vented it is a good choice for heat.
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Bigdtown
Member
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# Posted: 14 Jan 2012 23:41
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as and hvac technician I feel the need to jump in here. First of all it's not CO2 that you are worried about (as some of you are saying) it's CO. I also have a 23,000 BTU kerosene heater that is my main heat source, but when we go to bed we set the heat pump for mid 60s (I know, we aren't of the grid but bear with me). When I go to a house and read any CO at all I freak, and anything over 5 ppm I have to shut that unit down (the US is strict about this), so you all talking 30-40-70-100 ppm blows my mind. With that being said I have a $300 CO detector and have never read even 1 ppm off of my heater. Be safe, be smart and make damn sure you remember to wake up!
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surefire423
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# Posted: 22 Aug 2012 19:35
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To continue on this note...CO is cumlative in your body. This means that each exposure adds to the last. It takes a long time to rid it from your body.
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 22 Aug 2012 21:31
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Glad this topic is at the top of our list again. Some people on this forum really need to read it!
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rayyy
Member
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2012 04:06
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I know I started out with a vent free heater,but the moisture was accumulating on the vapor barrier above the pine board ceiling then dripping down onto the boards them selves.Rusting up the nails and then dripping down onto the floor and me.It also would accumulate on the coldest surfaces.Quite a mess.Went to a through wall vented gas heater.problem solved.
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Taigen
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# Posted: 11 Dec 2012 14:23
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Breathing very cold air all night may not kill you but it's not good for your health either.
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