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MtnDon
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# Posted: 11 Dec 2012 14:31
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It is preferable to breathing warm air laced with CO. No?
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Dillio187
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# Posted: 11 Dec 2012 14:47 - Edited by: Dillio187
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I installed the same heater as MtnDon, and I have to give it a big thumbs up. The only thing that's a pain with it (as most other heaters of this type) is starting them up when cold, most of the time there is a reverse draft down the flue and you have to wrap a bag or jacket around the cap on the outside to block the air, and then light the pilot with a butane torch.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 11 Dec 2012 15:25
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Agreed. I have found that quite often if I stand there with the knob held down for at least 30 seconds and then give the igniter several "clicks' in rapid succession I have reasonably good luck starting it. This seems to be mostly a problem when the heater and the room are very cold. If the room is warm and I want to light the pilot it doesn't seem to be as difficult. But this is the only thing negative I can say about it.
I use a propane torch with a built in igniter for all my fire starting. The type where pulling the trigger opens the gas valves and clicks the piezo sparker. On days when it mey be reallt stubborn to start I find that heating the thermo probe in the burner box with the torch allows turning the control to 'on" and then the entire fire bar lights.
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tex
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# Posted: 2 Jan 2015 17:10 - Edited by: tex
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WE ARE LOOKING INTO HEATING OUR 9X12X8 FT HIGH CABIN.
Fully insulated and fairly tight cabin...mouse certified!
We did not use poly, though, tar papered, board and baton exterior... used sheep's wool insulation (better than fiberglass/environmentally friendly and breaths better too) and tongue and grove pine boards to finish the inside. Metal roof.
I have looked at vented and unvented propane/diesel heaters. Wood stove and ...a heat buddy.
Frankly; it amazes me that US/Canada have such limited options.
My general opinion is use/ have a small heat buddy around to warm the place up (in a fully insulated cabin) I find it works for basic comfort, it is easily moved around for comfort zones and get a decent sleeping bag, wool blanket, floor mat(s) if you plan to stay over for more than a night or two during cold weather.
Ultimately; though marine (boat) stores carry a "vented" cabin heater that we are definitely interested in, to both, heat the room and will include a line to the propane stove too. A weekend retreat should do well with this device.
Wood stoves (small ship type) that I in fact have.. takes to much space/wood/footprint et al, smoky, dirty and challenging to install properly.
We do not want a propane BBQ, a small Coleman charcoal grill for $ 20.00 works just fine for our needs. 
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tex
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# Posted: 2 Jan 2015 18:01
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Does not sound that you care to live away from any convenience. Unless it costs you money?
Small cabins in my opinion should be representing "minimal" use of all contemporary devices.
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rmak
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# Posted: 2 Jan 2015 18:53
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I have been using a kerosene heater with cracked windows and alarms when I go out to the cabin for a few hours in the evenings (cabin's on our property). It's impractical to fire up my woodstove since I can't be there till it burns itself out and I don't want to leave an open flame.
I thought all was good until I read the horror stories. I prefer living to the alternative.
So I started to look into vented propane and was moving in that direction. Now I find I can't put it by a window, so that shoots that! I have one wall without windows, but that's where my futon beds are, and I'm sure you're not supposed to have furniture in front of the heater.
This whole issue is quite discouraging. My cabin is only 12 X 16, so my options are limited.
Oh well, so much for my plans of quiet time at the cabin. Might as well close her up till spring!
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 2 Jan 2015 23:27
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Quoting: rmak It's impractical to fire up my woodstove since I can't be there till it burns itself out and I don't want to leave an open flame.
Open flame? The fire is within the metal firebox, isn't it? We use a quality made cast iron wood burner, have an approved chimneyand stove installation and clean the chimney on a schedule that experience has shown to be on the cautious side, and don't worry about absenses of any duration. Are we being foolish or you overly cautious?
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Ontario lakeside
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# Posted: 3 Jan 2015 00:35
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If you cant trust a wood stove while your away, how can you trust it while you sleep!!
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rmak
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# Posted: 3 Jan 2015 09:43 - Edited by: rmak
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MtnDon I would never call you foolish! You have been a tremendous help to me.
I have the problem of quick heat to use the cabin when I'm not working. I don't want to drone on about my personal life but I have a number of commitments. I would like to be able to get out to our cabin when I can, to enjoy it. Starting a fire in the stove (Jotul, pretty high quality) just takes too long. For instance, our family sometimes goes down for Sunday breakfast at the cabin. With just the stove I need to go down at 6:30 to have the cabin warm by 9:00. Waking up at 6:00 and sitting for hours in the cold is not something I want to do on a rare day off. Sorry to go on since I am discussing this on another thread. I understand this is a problem which is unique to me. If I was retired or worked less this wouldn't be an issue, but then again, I probably wouldn't have a cabin to worry about.
Even if I started a roaring fire and got things warm after a while, I just don't feel comfortable walking away. I wouldn't mind sleeping there (and we sleep all the time at home with a fireplace insert) but I'm physically there in case something happens. I could call for help or use the fire extinguisher. That's different from having the cabin burn down in my absence.
I was excited when I picked up a kerosene heater. It took the cabin up 40 degrees in an hour. I could use it for a quick few hours of peace, or start a fire in comfort. I follow all of the precautions and read all of the dangers. I still wanted to be "overly cautious" because of all I've read here.
I intended to spend the money on a vented propane. If I can't have it by a window, that plan is out too. So I'm back where I started.
I apologize for the long post. I am discouraged. If anyone has a constructive idea I am open to it.
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Shadyacres
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# Posted: 3 Jan 2015 09:54
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A small woodstove installed properly by manufacturers instructions would be fine. You can also use different size wood depending on how long you plan to be there.
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rmak
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# Posted: 3 Jan 2015 10:46
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I have a small Jotul (602) professionally installed. Still takes about 3 hours from 24 degrees to get into the 50-60 range. I've heated with wood just about my whole adult life. I lived three years with heating our house with a wood furnace. I honestly don't think my problem is in building a fire.
Once the cabin is warm, maintaining the heat is no problem. Raising the temp from below freezing to "take off your coat" warm is a whole other animal.
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Shadyacres
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# Posted: 3 Jan 2015 14:44
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Don't think I mentioned that you didn't know how to start a fire. I was getting at if you know when you will be leaving your cabin , stop putting wood on it so many hours before you leave. Sounds like you are a pro at wood heat so it should not take you long to figure that out. I have been using wood heat for about 40 years and I know when my stove will need more wood or how long it will burn. And there should be no problem to let it die out after you leave the cabin.
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rmak
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# Posted: 3 Jan 2015 15:21 - Edited by: rmak
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I'm sorry if I gave you the wrong impression. There are people of all different ability levels on a number of things here. I just wanted to clarify that I burned up a lot of wood in my day.
I might have made a mistake when I put double walled stove pipe on instead of single wall. I was afraid I'd cook myself out of my 12 X 16 cabin with even the smallest stove. The one I have is rated for 1000 square feet and we're just under 200. As it is, I just get radiant heat from the stove itself. This may account for the long time it takes to heat the cabin up. That would be an easy fix if that's the problem.
Thanks to all you folks. I don't want to hijack the topic away from vented propane. Maybe I'll start a thread about my pipe and get some feedback.
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creeky
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# Posted: 3 Jan 2015 18:13 - Edited by: creeky
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Must be january. lol.
Unvented propane as a dwelling heater is illegal in Canada. by the by. I have an 80s wood stove in the studio (free, inc. the wood I burn). I have 3 vented propane. And 1 unvented Mr. Buddy. All get serious use during the season.
Unvented propane does put a lot of moisture into the air. It is not suitable for real cold weather. If you're heating up a small well insulated building in the fall no worries. But if you think you can heat your small well sealed building on a cold mid winter night. Well, they put that low oxygen cut off in them for a reason. Look at some of the stories from last winter ...
rmak. reheating even a small building takes time. there's a lot of mass to warm up. look at the dozens of posts "how do I heat up ...". I too have thought of swapping the pipe out of the stove to the first join for extra heat ... but this year I cut a cord of dead elm. Lots of it around.
Okay it's rotten/punky wood and burns up quick but that stuff works the ticket. There's nothing like a good hot fire. Throw a couple of blocks in and get a real hot fire going. I use wood pellets as starter.
And one of the first good lessons I learned on this site was a guy who said "good hot fire" ... he used cedar. That's a great option too. A good hot cedar fire will heat your building up quick and give you a great bed of coals. watch your pipe tho. tar and all that.
Vented propane is what I use exclusively in two of my buildings (washroom and bedroom). It's relatively cheap. Requires no work (except hauling 100lb tanks, but... not so hard). It's low btu tho, so it doesn't heat anything quick.
A friend of mine who uses his cabin on weekends had a 400lb tank put in and now he leaves his vented propane heater on 10c/50f during the week and turns it up when he and his wife get to the cabin. Might be a good solution for you weekenderz? And while the tank rental is like 150 a year it was less than 300 to fill. And with his tiny place (10x12 w/loft; reasonable insulation) it'll take a couple of years to go through I would think.
Beautiful place too. I've tried to get him to post here. anyways. Cheers all.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 3 Jan 2015 18:17
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Any wood burner with fire brick in the box takes a while to warm up. I think that means most modern EPA stoves. I do know someone who removed the firebrick from jotul and likes it better that way.
The main reason that the direct vent heater have restrictions on window placement is to eliminate the potential issue of having heater exhaust enter the building through an open or leaky window. Another reason is that the heat inside or the heat from the exhaust outside might play havoc with vinyl windows, or the glass if the glass was very cold and the heater was fired up.
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rmak
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# Posted: 4 Jan 2015 11:44
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Thanks, creeky. Yep, it's January. I didn't seem to have one thought about heaters last August.
Don, that window thing makes perfect sense now that you explain it. Just about every square inch of the cabin is used for something already, but I'll figure it out. The unit I was looking at was 15,000 BTU direct vent from Northern Tools. It's about 22 X 25 X 9. I did a Q and A with Northern about clearance distances, but got no response. Any idea about how far combustibles need to be kept from the front of a unit like that?
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tex
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# Posted: 4 Jan 2015 14:34 - Edited by: tex
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We will be using our existing, free , unique "ship" yacht - small wood stove.
Its not a modern EPA unit, but has been refurbished and includes (heat box) inserts and all new chimney piping and will be installed with heat shield(s).
The wood is free and we have a small heat buddy to warm the room (9x12) while the stove gets up to operating temperature.
Vented propane units may work ok, for larger "cabins", but for the times you typically use / need heat (spring/fall) a small properly installed (and sized) wood stove should work fine.
I like to clean the stove before I leave. Like (a charcoal) BBQ, its safer, cleaner to return too. No potential fires and its ready to go when you arrive.
For a small cabin a "small" wood stove is the way to go.
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creeky
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# Posted: 5 Jan 2015 11:48
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rmak. the manual for that heater is available on line and indicates window clearances.
see pg 14 manual: says 6" from opening window.
URL
also note. in canada it's code to have the vent 3 feet from the corner of your building. nope. don't know why. it's 24" in the manual here.
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rmak
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# Posted: 5 Jan 2015 15:56
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Thanks Creeky! I will be going for a 15,000btu so I guess it would have to be 9" underneath a window. That is doable. So I guess the propane heater is back on for me. Now, does anyone have a good way to hide those gosh awful ugly tanks?
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 5 Jan 2015 18:59
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Quoting: rmak good way to hide those gosh awful ugly tanks?
what size? 20, 40, etc pound or the big non poertable?
I ran underground gas pipe (the green coated stuff) from the cabin over to between a couple of out buildings and place the tanks there, hidden behind a fence enclosure. I also think it's better from a safety point of view in our case, because of wildfire dangers.
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rmak
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# Posted: 5 Jan 2015 21:05
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Good idea. I was thinking to use the largest size I could move around and be able to put in my pickup to be re-filled.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 5 Jan 2015 21:38
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FWIW, keep in mind that cylinders should be transported standing up; never laid on their side.
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DLMcBeath
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# Posted: 26 Jan 2015 11:46 - Edited by: DLMcBeath
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Let's add a little more contention to this conversation.
1. I have read that ventless wall heaters do not produce (if working properly) enough carbon monoxide to cause ill effects.
2. Ventless heaters deplete the oxygen in the room - They have an oxygen depletion sensor that shuts the unit off in the event of low oxygen levels in the room. Wood stoves also burn the oxygen from the room. Do they have an oxygen depletion sensor?
3. Propane puts out water vapor - How about running a dehumidifier in the room?
I don't know? For every pro there's a con. 
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 26 Jan 2015 14:28
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1. The key phrase is "if working properly". There are many variables that can contribute to CO production.
2. Oxygen depletion is not as big a concern as even small amounts of CO. The hemoglobin in our blood grabs CO before oxygen and will not let go of the CO.
You can get fresh air kits for many good stoves. That turns them into the wood burning equivalent of a direct vent propane heater. No, they don't have an O2 depletion sensor... how would you make one extinguish the fire?
I bet that if we did not have wood burning stoves already if someone invented a wood burning stove today there would be too many safety concerns that it would not even be allowed to be sold.
3. Propane puts out Uber amounts of water vapor. I don't know how practical a dehumidifier would be. Especially for the off grid crowd.
However, if one is bound and determined to use a ventfree heater by all means go ahead. The odds are that no harm will come to you. But there are downsides already mentioned and more on the topic that you can find here in other topics on the matter.
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FishHog
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# Posted: 26 Jan 2015 14:56
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I had a vent free in my last cottage. I'm putting a vented one in the new one. I had no safety concerns as I had monitors and tested them many times. But the moisture was an issue, so I'm going with a vented. Down side is that they aren't as efficient in heating, as you lose heat to the outside, but I burn wood when I'm there, like the heater to maintain temps when I'm out of the day.
Pros and cons to everything. Use your head, take precautions and use what works best for you.
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creeky
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# Posted: 26 Jan 2015 19:08 - Edited by: creeky
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I can see using vent free in a drafty north carolina lake house, to take the edge of a chilly morning but there are some real problems with vent free:
no combustion process is 100% efficient. so the non combusted material is always a concern. a few hours on google finds that there are number of bad things that can come out of a gas combustion process.
There are 4 products that are definitely released by propane combustion: primarily co2 and h20. both are safe but bad in too high a concentration. excessive: water vapour will lead to mold and mildew as fishhog points out; c02. well: most of us prefer oxygen for breathing.
c0. will be released. normally safe in small quantities unless you have an unlikely scenario. sadly this result has happened. will happen. perhaps even is happening. the results of excessive concentrations appear in the news every winter.
one often undisclosed problem is Nitrogen dioxide. or n02. it is detrimental to your health even in small concentrations. if you find yourself coughing and hacking with gas heat ... respiratory stress is a sign of n02. and it's there.
NO one wants to be the dark cloud of mt. doom. but unvented gas heaters used for home heating are illegal in Canada for a reason.
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KinAlberta
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# Posted: 20 May 2017 07:46
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Lack of venting system led to carbon-monoxide deaths in Venables Valley home - Kamloops This Week
Excerpt
"...In its investigation report, the BCSA states a “water heater was installed inside the home without a vent system attached.†The water heater was a tankless, on-demand type, in which cold water could be heated instantly by a high-output propane burner when a hot water tap was opened."
https://www.kamloopsthisweek.com/lack-venting-system-led-carbon-monoxide-deaths-venab les-valley-home/
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Willie1959
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# Posted: 20 May 2017 08:42
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That's why I got a portable heat pump. I have the generator on in the winter anyways. Current one uses only 8 amps to run and my Honda 2500 watt runs it no problems. I would rather pay for 1 liter of gas per hour and be safe.
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