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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 24 Jun 2015 09:48
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OK, I'm ready to buy a real pump.
We're off grid.
We're under the radar, not doing the permit thing.
The static level is 18'.
The well is 40'.
I bought a test kit, the water is fine, so let's not make this thread a discussion of safety, sanitation issues...please.
My quandary is whether to get a ½ horse, ¾ horse, or 1 horse.
Talking with a neighbor, a 1 horse could suck it dry....not good....pumps don't seem to do well when running dry.
I'm leaning toward the ½ horse for that very reason.
Also, I learned that well depth, in regard to pumps, is measured from the static level, so the shallow well jet pump (25') seems the prudent way to go.
I'm thinking to run 30' of pipe with a check valve....sound right?
Sir Just seems a wealth of info, so I'm hoping that ol' geezer will chime in here, and of course all y'all that are in the know.
Goin' ta Home Dopey tomorrow to fill the little list I have.
It's 50 miles away, so I figger we s/be luxuriating in H2O after making 27 round trips...
Oh, and another concern;
I'm considering not getting a pressure tank, since I'll only be pumping water when needed.
Crank up the jenny, turn on the pump, fill a couple 30 gallon containers (one by the cabin, one by the garden), then shut 'er down....
I'm rather pumped about our new upgrade...especially in the shower dept (another thread, another time).
Thoughts?
Input?
Just, where ye be, mate?
ps; the pipe (casing?) is only 2" so can't do the submersible
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groingo
Member
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# Posted: 24 Jun 2015 11:22 - Edited by: groingo
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One thing you need to check regarding your well is the recharge rate, how long it takes to put water back after drawing it down based in gallons per minute, that will help you size your pump motor requirement.
From experience I would never go with a submerged pump, to much hassle WHEN things go wrong, above ground much easier to work on.
I have a 140 foot well, has a recharge rate of 3.9 gpm drawing at 45 feet and use a 3/4 hp motor.
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Just
Member
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# Posted: 24 Jun 2015 12:12
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Quoting: Gary O My quandary is whether to get a ½ ho
1/2 horse is all you need , if the well is slow you can restrict the flow of any jet pump down to 1/2 gallon per min.
put a valve in the main line to restrict it if need be '
Also put a tee and tap close to the pump for priming purposes .
[that way you don't have to yell at Cabby to turn on the hose NB NB NB '..
Quoting: Gary O I'm considering not getting a pressure tan
I WOULD GET THE SMALL BLADDER TANK !! , helps the pump maintain it's prime , if the pump has water on both sides of it its hard for air to get in and and destroy its vacuum [prime] ..
Quoting: Gary O with a check valve..
Yes you need a check valve and 30 feet of 1 in . pipe down the well [ buy the best quality pipe , clamps , fittings ,and check valve to go down the well .]]
use metal or nylon fittings , USE TWO under ground STAINLESS clamps and hot water to complete all your connections .
The closer the pump is to the well head the better !!
THIS SHOULD GET YOU STARTED
QUESTION how will you keep it from freezing come winter, under ground pit or pump house ???
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 24 Jun 2015 15:01
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Sounds reasonable with a 1/2 HP pump and a small pressure tank (20gal) would be best as indicated above. Everything should be rust proof... so stainless clamps, PEX/PVC, Hot Galvanised fittings or Brass (not copper). Saving a dollar or two on a clamp or fitting will cost ya a lot more later...
Remember that old saying "Penny Wise & Dollar Foolish", Water System, Power Systems & Heating Systems is no place to be foolish, the 3 key items to surviving should never be messed with.
Do try to determine the recovery rate of the well.. Pump it dry and wait to see how fast it recovers. This is done typically 3 times in a row to determine the Mean Recovery time. That will ultimately tell you if the pump is too big or small that you intend to buy.
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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 24 Jun 2015 15:50
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Quoting: groingo One thing you need to check regarding your well is the recharge rate, how long it takes to put water back after drawing it down based in gallons per minute, that will help you size your pump motor requirement.
how do I do this without a pump? (not being funny here)
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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 24 Jun 2015 15:52
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Quoting: Steve_S Do try to determine the recovery rate of the well.. Pump it dry and wait to see how fast it recovers. This is done typically 3 times in a row to determine the Mean Recovery time. That will ultimately tell you if the pump is too big or small that you intend to buy.
how do I do this without a pump?
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Just
Member
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# Posted: 24 Jun 2015 16:00
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I would get Cabby right on that recovery time thing Gary ,your recovery time should only be a few weeks..lol
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Just
Member
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# Posted: 24 Jun 2015 16:30
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IT doesn't matter you are going to have the smallest pump they make with a restriction valve . at our lake cottage we have a 1/2 horse pump and a small tank with a full bath ,washer dryer , 40 gal hot water tank.and the well is 7 ft deep with a 1 1/4 in.pipe . Did you ever get the pitcher pump to work??that should give some indication that there is water in the well to be had..
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Just
Member
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# Posted: 24 Jun 2015 16:54
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One like this should be good !
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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 24 Jun 2015 21:18 - Edited by: Gary O
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Quoting: Just Did you ever get the pitcher pump to work?
Yes, but it doesn't hold a prime, nor is it designed to
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 24 Jun 2015 21:49
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Heya Gary,
My local rental companies have pumps that can be used for such instances... Shallow Well pumps very similar to what Just posted above. Drop the line in and pump till dry, shutoff should be automatic when the pump cavitates. Wait 15 minutes and run pump again to dry... Wait 30 minutes & measure (time) how long it take to empty, then again after 30 minutes.
ON IMPORTANT POINT !!! DO NOT DRINK THE WATER !!! If you have introduced ANYTHING into your well casing, water line or whatever, you MUST consider it potentially contaminated (think e-coli) which can be transferred from your hands & the lines.
During your testing it's no problem BUT when you do finally put in the line etc be sure to shock it with chlorine (1 gallon of Retail Bleach like Javex / Clorox per 50 gal) or use well shock tablets (5-10 should do it). Let that sit overnight and then pump it out... when the smell of chlorine is gone, your good to go.
SOME would say this is overboard BUT having been subjected to e-coli poisoning because a MUFFLAH (foreign language curse) did well works and installed new lines without shocking it contaminated the source with e-coli. In our province here, it's mandatory to shock after the Well Seal has been opened for any reason... Remember Walkerton & Other towns in Ontario where people died in the past 15 years...
Once of prevention - Pounds of cure !
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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 24 Jun 2015 22:06
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THAT...is a ton of excellent info.
Thank you very much, Steve_S
and y'all of course
tomorrow the adventure begins
oh, one more question; Just, one inch pipe, really?
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Just
Member
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# Posted: 24 Jun 2015 22:08 - Edited by: Just
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1 check valve.[ i have mine at the top of the well]
2 restriction valve. [set at 3 gals. per min. with a 1 horse 8 gal. pump]
3 1 in. line to well .
4 small pressure tank [ I also have a large 40 gal. bladder tank .
5 tee and tap beside the pump..
6 line to house
may help get your head around my gibberish .
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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 24 Jun 2015 22:24 - Edited by: Gary O
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1 check valve.[ i have mine at the top of the well] CHECK
2 restriction valve. [set at 3 gals. per min. with a 1 horse 8 gal. pump] CHECK
3 1 in. line to well . CHECK
4 small pressure tank [ I also have a large 40 gal. bladder tank . CHECK
5 tee and tap beside the pump.. CHECK
6 line to house CHECK
no gibberish, I read slow, so appreciate you typing slow
my trips to Home Dopey begin tomorrow
I may start a small plumbing outlet here in the sticks by the time I'm done...
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Just
Member
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# Posted: 24 Jun 2015 23:00
Reply
I have one rental house with a 3/4 in. suction line ,,works fine
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toyota_mdt_tech
Member
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# Posted: 25 Jun 2015 00:16 - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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Gary, if you just want water when starting generator, why not just run the line right from the well pump up the well shaft, out the cap, with a hose bib. Caution, leave bib open, in fact, use no valve. This will just pump water when the generator is running. You can wire in a switch so you can start the generator, plug it in, and flip switch to turn on the water. If you do it that way, you can also pierce a small hole in the pipe about 4 feet blow grade. This will create a small internal water leak to prevent the well from freezing. It always the water to bleed out the system to below frost line.
Set it at about 15-20 feet from the bottom to prevent sand locking. In reality, a well that shallow will need at max a 3/4 HP but its shallow enough, a 1/2HP would do it also.
If you dont do the bleed trick, then you should use a pitless adapter, this allows the water to exit the well out the side of the casing below the frost line instead of coming out the top. I know you are in high elevation. So it will freeze up in the winter. Pipe freezes, breaks etc, well pump drops to the bottom. You can add a steel tether or rope tether too retrieve it.
You said 2", Is this just a drive point? I have never head of a well under 4".
A quick search came up with one.
https://www.geotechnical.net/rediflo-2-pump.shtml
But if you go this route, you want to get a filter sock and wrap over the well motor, around the bottom and all over to the top, secure it with a wire tire at the top.
Gary, I just did a solar well, it works on that principle except it runs on solar power. I just flip an electrical switch and a pipe spout on the top of the well head flows 2.8 gallons a minute at the flip of a switch. Mine is DC volts, works from 12V to 48V.
I will finalize install this weekend and bring back good pictures.
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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 25 Jun 2015 00:38
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Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech You said 2", Is this just a drive point?
yes
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 25 Jun 2015 08:40
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@Toyota... Which Solar Kit did you go with ? I looked at a couple and got quotes, some of which were in outer space price wise. Certainly post photo's & details in maybe a separate thread, would be a good resource for folks.
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bldginsp
Member
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# Posted: 25 Jun 2015 09:06
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Just to point out that your original question kind of gets ahead of the process. The main choice with a well pump isn't the horsepower, its the flow rate. Once you decide what flow rate you want, you choose the horsepower that will achieve that.
As others pointed out, you need to know what the well will produce, since you can't pull out of it any faster than that and you should pull a bit slower to be sure you have recharge.
With a shallow well 1/2 hp will probably fill your needs but, if the well has a high recharge rate you might want a high rate of flow pump just so that you are filling your cisterns faster and so using less gas with your generator. If the well recharges at 25 gpm you could pump at 20 gpm, which is fast, and might require a 3/4hp. Slightly more costly motor will cost you less in gasoline over the years.
So anyway, what I learned is to follow these steps in order:
-determine well production rate (recharge)
-choose your desired flow rate that is less than production rate, based on whether you are using a pressure tank, cistern, generator, etc.
-choose pump at the flow rate you need. The hp of the pump will be determined by flow rate and total dynamic head (height from static plus pressure tank pressure plus pipe drag).
This is based on my education for a 300 foot deep well with a submersible pump, I'm not sure about jet pumps, which is what you need.
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toyota_mdt_tech
Member
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# Posted: 25 Jun 2015 09:08
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Steve, I will take complete photos this weekend. I have it in and it works great (2.8 gpm pump rate using sun) they forgot to include the included solar brackets. They shipped them to me, so it will be installed and I will take photos. Its all in place, fenced enclosure. I will trim it out with switch this weekend and give you guys a full update. As it is now, I remove push in plug in 1" pipe at well cap, insert pex spout into water jugs, flip electrical switch, (((boom))) 2.8 gallons a minute.
I got the K170-SR2 system
http://www.solarpumps.com/multipanelkitspage.html
The pump is completely serviceable, ie all internal parts. The panel mount comes down in under 3 minutes. So when I leave, panels leave too.
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 25 Jun 2015 09:18
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That's a pretty nice deal there Toyota ! I looked at SimplePumps TM as I was also considering a Hand Pumping option (backup to the backup, always have 3 ways to do something) BUT the price for my well (230' deep) was insane, especially after $ conversion, duties & taxes.
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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 25 Jun 2015 09:41 - Edited by: Gary O
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Quoting: bldginsp Slightly more costly motor will cost you less in gasoline over the years.
I hear ya, bldginsp...good, solid info.
Man, such a wealth of information, and incredibly not very conflicting.
Thing is (and this is where I get into trouble) I want a flow of water now, like today.
Y'see, this well will suffice for, oh, maybe the first year...or two.
Then we'll get one put in (with 4" casing) by professionals (approx. $4k) somewhere on our original parcel...near wherever we determine the main cabin will be.
Today I'll prolly purchase the ¾ hp one in stock at our not so local Home Depot, then do my best to get it going with as little to do as possible (of which will involve 150 ft of hose).
Yes, I'll run a bit extra in the fuel dept.
Yes, I risk running it dry
Yes, I need to build a little 'house', for winter.
Yes, I have not given total thought to winter and transporting water.
But,
This summer,
right now,
I'm not lugging one more 6 ½ gallon caldron of water...for under $500...or $1000
Once water is flowing, the pump is gonna be resting on an initial overbuilt 4x8 platform sitting on bricks (it's what I do).
Thank you so much, everyone.
All this info is a real help, and you've set this ol' Irishman in a direction.
I'll update as things progress
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toyota_mdt_tech
Member
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# Posted: 25 Jun 2015 14:53 - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
Reply
Gary, do you just want to get water from a spicket or do you want to run it into cabin and plumb it? In those cold areas, they dont usually run it in a house, they run it in an underground vault via a pit-less adapter, then into the house or it will freeze in winter. All the equipment is in the vault.
Is the pump a 110V unit or a 220 v unit?
If you just want water right now, get a 110v pump (or 220 if you have a bigger gennie) set pump to depth using poly pipe, stainless crimp clamps on barbed fittings (double clamp them). Run pipe up well through well head. The pipe needs to tie into 1" PVC or whatever well cap will accommodate. Then run an elbow on it at the cap and run a extension flex house. Hook the hose spicket into your water jugs, start gennie, plug in pump. Will fill it fast.
Here is a nice video, this is exactly how I did mine. I just dont have the livestock tank with float switch. Mine is just a manual wall switch. (livestock well set up)
http://www.solarpumps.com/ Scroll down the page, click on the video. This will get you water now, and cheap. I'd get a 110V pump, the Honda EU2000i will run it with ease. Run a wire to it form cabin circuit to make life even easier so if cabin is powered up, the well will have power and add the switch at well. Flip on switch, fill jugs.
Pierce the poly pipe below frost line to bleed off in winter.
Then next year, more time, you have a pitless adapter put in place on that new 4" (or 6") well, run this into a vault (cement pipe with a manhole cover on it) and that is where your pressure tank will be located, then the pipe leads from there to cabin. If you hire a pro, he will know what to do. I know you have cold winters there G. That way will get you water the quickest and shortest amount of labor time too.
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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 26 Jun 2015 00:13 - Edited by: Gary O
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Used SIRI to point out well/plumbing locations in K Falls.
Now K Falls is more of a happenin' town than meets the casual eye.
However, durn near everthing ya want or need is either on 6th street or Washburn.
Home Dopey is on the south end of 6th.
Big R is quite close to Home Dopey, but surviving quite well.
Diamond, a building supply store, is on the other end of 6th.
Ferguson, a plumbing supply, is on Washburn.
I went there first.
Zero tech help.
Proceeded straight to Home Dopey.
Here's the deal with the big box stores of the world;
They have the presence of mind to occasionally hire retired pros.
I found him.
One thing I've learned over the years, namely while fishing, is finding the old man can be productive. Old men know where the fish are...and are pretty darn wise..
I was in the plumbing dept working with a very astute kid (late 20s) that knew every stick of inventory, and helped me pour over the list of connecting goodies handily provided by the makers of my pump selection.
I then posed a question to this lad (Ricardo).
Why do I need a pressure tank?
He stumbled thru some of his thoughts, but got confused when I advised that all I wanted to do was fill a couple/three containers and water the garden, then shut it off.
I noticed a rather trim, tall, aged gent a few feet away, intently listening.
I also noticed he wore the orange.
I asked him if he knew anything about wells, pumps, plumbing.
'Well, I work in the garden dept, and make sure everything is watered, but before this I was a commercial pumber for 40 years...
'...and no, you do not need a pressure tank for what you're doing.'
Then him (Richard), the kid (Ricardo) and I spent around two hours getting what I needed.
No, my set up is not the all-encompassing ideal.
But,
We're going to have water tomorrow
Gonna be the hottest day of the year so far (100°F) and we plan to have a garden hose water fight by 2pm...
Or
Travel another 100 miles for whatever I forgot, or boogered up...
I got the ¾ horse, a compromise from 1 horse and ½ horse, and enough fittings for options down the line...like winter.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-3-4-HP-Shallow-Well-Jet-Pump-J200A3/204478353
Oh, and if you ever find yerself in Klamath Falls, and in need of plumbing info, Richard is in the garden dept on Thursday
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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 26 Jun 2015 05:32
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Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech Gary, I just did a solar well, it works on that principle except it runs on solar power. I just flip an electrical switch and a pipe spout on the top of the well head flows 2.8 gallons a minute at the flip of a switch. Mine is DC volts, works from 12V to 48V. I will finalize install this weekend and bring back good pictures.
This....I cannot wait to see
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toyota_mdt_tech
Member
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# Posted: 26 Jun 2015 07:31
Reply
OK Gary, I wont be back online till Monday, and I too, will be curious to see how your set up worked out and how that water fight went. 
Its 4:30AM, I depart at 0500.
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Just
Member
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# Posted: 26 Jun 2015 07:41
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Good looking pump has a large casting , means it holds a extra quart of water to protect the pump frpm over heating.. ..
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 26 Jun 2015 08:15
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Good Luck Gary, post pics & details when you get them AND Enjoy the Water Fight that you and missus have been anxious to have. Hopefully you got a couple of Super Soakers (for the Grandkids of course) Wink, Wink, Nudge, Nudge...
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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 27 Jun 2015 00:26
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Water
Is in
Our water fight;
Just kiddin'
The man upstairs had other plans
I'm reporting our day's adventure on our tiny cabin thread
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toyota_mdt_tech
Member
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# Posted: 29 Jun 2015 17:22
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Solar well in finished with photos
http://www.small-cabin.com/forum/6_431_4.html#msg84133
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