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bobrok
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# Posted: 3 Jul 2015 15:20 - Edited by: bobrok
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I just had a conversation with a solar installer who suggested this as an alternative to lithium ion for off grid applications. The battery uses saltwater.
The manufacturer is a company called Aquion Energy URL in Pittsburgh and according to their website and the installer these have many of the features of lithium ion batteries but currently cost less.
I couldn't find any reference on this forum to them or to this type of battery and I'm wondering if I missed something or if someone else knows about this.
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creeky
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# Posted: 3 Jul 2015 16:23 - Edited by: creeky
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I looked at these last year.
Please contact a supplier and see if you can buy one. The last time I looked they were not available for sale.
There is no supporting data that I've seen. Perhaps we could see this also?
Remember Lithium is available now. It is supported with almost 20 years of independent research.
Lead acid has been available for what a hundred years. The properties are well known.
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groingo
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# Posted: 3 Jul 2015 16:46
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Good find, a bit of digging and I spotted one name investor (Billy boy Gates) , he plopped 35 million (chump change) into this so there is likely something to it...worth looking closer for sure!
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bobrok
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# Posted: 3 Jul 2015 17:11
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Thanks!
The person I spoke with is supposedly going to pick up a shipment of these sometime soon for install to her customers, so she may be a supplier.
At any rate I'm supposed to meet with her up at my camp in the next couple of weeks to do a system walk-through/assessment/recommendation for me.
I'll certainly let you know what I find out.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 4 Jul 2015 02:41
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That's awesome! Thanks for the info!!!!
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 4 Jul 2015 02:51
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Well, there's an Oregon distributor plus some California distributors who serve Oregon so it would be doable for me.  The smallest (2 KwH) are 48V. What does that mean, in terms of gear like charge controllers, inverters, etc.?
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 4 Jul 2015 03:28
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Read their blog, which listed an online distributor. The cost of the 2.4 kWh battery is $1,276.
http://www.solarpanelsplus.com/products
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creeky
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# Posted: 4 Jul 2015 09:54
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that's pretty cool. he says rubbing his hands together with glee.
Julie2. 48v uses the same solar controller. most good MPPT controllers handle multiple charge voltages. you'll also get slightly better efficiency at 48v. bonus.
your inverter will need to be 48v. the advantage to 48v is lower amperage so thinner wires can be used. Harder to hook up dc appliances tho.
500 bucks per usable kilowatt. that's pretty reasonable $$.
my one concern is a 12A max charge rate on parallel stacks (nice you can parallel cause 2.4kw is about 1/2 to 1/3 of what I'm looking at for my next battery pack).
12A at 65v (max charge voltage give or take based on temp) is only 800 watts. So if I parallel two I can run a 1500 watt system. Max 24A.
Compare that to lifepo4 where you can charge a 5kw battery pack at 40A (or even higher). Giving you a 3kw solar input. This is important when you think about short days, or cloudy weather.
also note: (and this is what I remember when I looked at these earlier) the discharge rating is the same as the charge. In fact two things come into play.
One: the discharge max is 10A per stack. So 20 amps on our "model" system.
Two: "voltage sag" under load is higher than even lead acid.
So you may find, with our two stack model (5kw), you are effectively limited to discharging at 800w /h or less. And certainly you can go no higher (100% SOC) than 1300 watts/h.
This means you are stuck using a very small load. Or you need more stacks.
By comparison a 5kw lifepo4 can be discharged at 5kw/h. If you were so inclined.
so. Cons: slower charge/discharge.
Pros: reasonable cost. excellent lifespan*. low maintenance. good temperature range.
*note the mfct spec of 3,000 at 100% discharge.
pretty nice.
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groingo
Member
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# Posted: 4 Jul 2015 12:21
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The recharge rate is going to be critical especially during winter months when solar production time goes way down.
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bobrok
Member
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# Posted: 4 Jul 2015 12:58 - Edited by: bobrok
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Quoting: creeky Harder to hook up dc appliances tho
I addressed this in my conversation with the installer. If I upgrade I want to be able to use the solar to run my on demand 12v. water pump that sits out in the shed. She said she'd install a DC transfer switch (do I have this correct) to do this. Easy, she said. True? Functional?
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creeky
Member
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# Posted: 4 Jul 2015 16:01
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you'll need a dc to dc converter (48 to 12). pretty easy.
however, and, as I always recommend, forget dc. it's not worth the hassle. just go ac. you have an inverter already. why wire for two systems. save the work. you can get the same shurflo 12v dc revolution in 115 ac as the 2008-x (many models).
which i think there's a post on just that pump right on page one. (insert whistling sound).
remember to look at your loads. high draw ac loads = lithium. and the price is the same (plus/minus). the life span is the same. the maintenance is the same.
looking forward to how this works out.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 4 Jul 2015 23:08
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Yeah, Creeky, because of those amps and the discussion I saw regarding a practical scenario on their blog, your 2 battery model would likely be OK for me but I'd need 3 to be safe and for any real energy storing to occur. My biggest concern would be surge watts.
Would adding panels help or is this simply an "it is what it is" situation?
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creeky
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# Posted: 5 Jul 2015 08:04
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I'm not sure. Adding panels would help when the suns out as the power could go direct to the load. But how do you then keep the charging amperage down?
I went to look at the blog post with the guy using them for his offgrid office. He has a very low load. Plus, he only has 750 watts of panels for 6 stacks. Yikes. 6 stacks at 1300 bucks a stack. Mmmm.
For my 8 grand I'd go a 10kw lithium pack and forget the hassle. With the money I saved I could then throw 3 or 4 kw of solar at it and have more power more of the time.
For the sake of: I was daydreaming about having two battery banks the other day. Maybe you have aqueous for a low load circuit (office, bedroom, bathroom) and a lithium pack for a high load circuit like the kitchen where you're using high draw/surge appliances?
No dishwasher, microwave, smoothie blender, vacuum on the aqueous circuit that's for sure. I even wonder about the start up surge on the fridge. You know. Unless you go 6 stacks.
I'll wait and watch.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 5 Jul 2015 23:02
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Quoting: creeky I went to look at the blog post with the guy using them for his offgrid office. He has a very low load. Plus, he only has 750 watts of panels for 6 stacks. Yikes. 6 stacks at 1300 bucks a stack. Mmmm.
That is EXACTLY what had me shaking and scratching my head! Now, I did read his full report and actual draw and it's electronics and AC-heavy, so I wonder if his "230 watts max" per hour claim was really under-estimating. I did reply to that blog, asking if he considered adding more panels instead of doubling his battery bank -- and if it would make a difference -- but it hasn't posted or elicited a response yet.
If this is a big flaw with these batteries, then I absolutely agree that their practical applications are currently very limited and lithium ion batts are still the way to go!
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Bret
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# Posted: 20 Jun 2016 15:09
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http://blog.aquionenergy.com/aquion-launches-24-volt-battery?utm_campaign=24+V+Produc t+Launch&utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=30789775&_hsenc=p2ANqtz--ds THPT9ed6gPxysewrdYLqMGioAsg6_veZre75oJZLuIetPXYmnWmVNS4fsnS-Qp4J5w7Gr38Hvt3DL7WrDl2wE E4sw&_hsmi=30789775
New 24v battery. It's getting more interesting.
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