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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 22 Nov 2015 12:05 - Edited by: Gary O
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Heh, knew this season would come.
Prepared for it as a niggling secondary operation while building a livable domicile.
Here's the deal;
I set up a thawing mechanism in the pump hut with the thought that I'd just fire it up for the nights it gets really cold, like in the effing teens cold.
Thing is, times are coming that it won't get above the teens for who knows how many days in a row.
It may get a tad expensive to keep things thawed.
My thought this morning, as I throw another dog on the fire, is I may just chose to thaw it all out when I need to draw water.
My question is, will my PVC pipes burst, or will the pump itself incur damage if I let it freeze?
I assume the water level is held within the pump (?), or (hopefully) it drops down past the freeze level (?)
These are the times I wish I were of the MtnDon caliber, but I've historically chosen to spend my idle time writing inane prose instead of leafing thru tomes of pertinent data, and when in town, instead of hanging around the Smithsonian outlet, discussing with kindred minds the theory of perpendicular modulification in regard to the rhomboidal incontinence of transconstipation (like I imagine MtnDon does) I generly go to the Dollar Store and by candy.
Let us pause a moment to examine this in graphic detail, as I've generated a technical knowledge chart, depicting where I think I am;
OK, let's get back to the question;
Will my PVC pipes burst, or will the pump itself incur damage if I let it freeze?
I assume the water level is held within the pump (?), or (hopefully) it drops down past the freeze level (?)
Second question;
Does anyone have MtnDon's email?
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DaveBell
Moderator
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# Posted: 22 Nov 2015 12:51
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Yes.
No.
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NorthRick
Member
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# Posted: 22 Nov 2015 14:25
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Unless the whole think drains back down in to the well when you shut if off, I'd say yes to both. PVC pipe can tolerate some freezing but eventually it will crack. If the pump retains water and it freezes it will likely crack somewhere.
Even if things don't break, there is the whole issue of thawing everything out so it works again. It always takes longer than you think it should.
To be blunt, you don't have a great setup for pumping water in subfreezing temps if the system retains water after pumping. You either need to make sure it drains dry so there is no water to freeze or run heat tape around things and then wrap it well in insulation so it takes less energy to keep the wet parts above freezing.
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 22 Nov 2015 15:00 - Edited by: MtnDon
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I am not familiar with the pump pictured. However most, maybe all the non submersible pumps I am familiar with would be damaged by a hard freeze. I lost an RV pump a few years ago because trapped water split the pump when it froze.
When the pump shuts off most likely water remains in the pump and water lines. When you turn on the pump is water immediately flowing from it? Or is there a delay? A delay would indicate the lines between pump and water in the well drain back. PVC pipe can and will split if water freezes in it.
Tell us more. I assume that is a 120 VAC pump; correct? I know your electricity comes from a generator. Can you, do you, run the pump from batteries via an inverter? Or just the generator?
Do you have a water storage tank inside the heated space? If you did my ideal would be to have a submersible DC pump that drains back when the pump shuts off. A small hole ( 1/16 or 1/8 ") slightly above the standing level in the well lets the water drain back if there is a foot valve to prevent back flow. Power the pump with a solar panel or generator if no solar. Make the inside tank large enough to serve at least a full days use, preferably two.
That would be my ideal. Short of that an improvement would be a heater with a thermostat. Can't tell from the picture if that one does or not.
You can find an email for me if you stop and think.... a couple places that comes to my mind.
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rayyy
Member
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# Posted: 22 Nov 2015 16:45
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Ah-know-watcha-mean.This new project of mine has slowed down a bit due to the numbing effect of cold on my fingers.
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Just
Member
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# Posted: 22 Nov 2015 16:56
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Try building a much smaller box, made from 2 jn. foam, around the pump ,in your present pump house . leave enough room for a coal oil lantern to supply heat . Many farm homes used this method last century .
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Just
Member
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# Posted: 22 Nov 2015 16:58
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Yes ,,, your pump will not last the first night
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OutdoorFanatic
Member
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# Posted: 22 Nov 2015 17:57 - Edited by: OutdoorFanatic
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Hey Gary, you may be able to keep the pump house above freezing with a heater but where does your water line go after it leaves the house?
Around here we have to insulate them and bury them 4' down. Even at that some freeze every now and then if we get an extended cold spell.
If yours is buried less than that I would look into some heat tape.
Heat Tape
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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 22 Nov 2015 22:22
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Quoting: NorthRick run heat tape
can't
no elect or solar, just a genny
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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 22 Nov 2015 22:32
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Quoting: MtnDon I am not familiar with the pump pictured
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Wayne-3-4-HP-Shallow-Well-Jet-Pump-SWS75/203668877?MERCH=R EC-_-NavPLPHorizontal1_rr-_-NA-_-203668877-_-NQuoting: MtnDon You can find an email for me if you stop and think.... a couple places that comes to my mind.
kidding
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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 22 Nov 2015 22:33 - Edited by: Gary O
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Quoting: OutdoorFanatic Hey Gary, you may be able to keep the pump house above freezing with a heater but where does your water line go after it leaves the house?
just to a hose from the pump
quite primitive
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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 22 Nov 2015 22:46 - Edited by: Gary O
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Quoting: Just coal oil lantern
I know, you been tellin' me this
going a bit more up town
but
the heater I've got is over kill
going with one of these with a 'T' connection and 20 lb tank
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200362083_200362083
Quoting: Just your pump will not last the first night
only dropping to 28 tonight
goin' to town Wed
meantime, I'll use a considerable amount of propane
thanks a bunch, guys
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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 22 Nov 2015 23:00
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Quoting: NorthRick To be blunt, you don't have a great setup
Akshly, you're too kind.
This is a cobbled set up.
The 2" pipe for this already existing well would not accommodate a submersible, and (my other excuse) I had a couple dozen other things going......OK, OK, I'll be out with it...it was a half hearted attempt.
Come summer, possibly this next one, I'll have a real well drilled, and solar, and other, better stuff.
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OutdoorFanatic
Member
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# Posted: 23 Nov 2015 06:45
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Quoting: Gary O can't no elect or solar, just a genny
I guess if I was in your shoes then Gary, I would put my water line inside a 4" PVC. Insulate it and put a "T" fitting in the pump house to a piece of dryer hose and run heat thru it.
I used to have one of those small caterpillar kerosene heaters that I built a plenum on the heater end with some stove pipe then hooked a piece of dryer hose to it for heating up an ole diesel motor that we had.
We called it, "The dragon." It worked great for many years.
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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 23 Nov 2015 08:13
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Quoting: OutdoorFanatic I guess if I was in your shoes then Gary, I would put my water line inside a 4" PVC. Insulate it and put a "T" fitting in the pump house to a piece of dryer hose and run heat thru it.
we're on the same page here
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 23 Nov 2015 08:56
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Gary...
You need to get a drain back setup in there ASAP to allow the water to drain out of the pump into the well... That is critical IMO.
Might consider buying a backup pump and having it on hand Just in Case.
Store some water in your cabin... so you have it, if needed, should things freeze up.
The "hose" well it's a hose... You can get hoses that can tolerate a certain amount of freezing but I don't put much stock in that as I know that ICE is one of the most powerful forces on the planet and can destroy just about anything... To that end, maybe setup a Quick Connect @ Pump & Cabin side to allow you to disconnect & drain OR replace in a hurry if needed.
HEAT: Ohhh the bane of my existence ! As you remember my Power-House & Pump-House are one building and the aggravation it's caused me is well... too much really. (insert Fred Flintstone stomping & ruckus-stuckus-frickus-fruckus).
because your on Genny alone... (ohh, that sounds potentially un-PC LOL) that presents several problems. LPG/Propane fuel is the way to go. A small Convector or radiant heat unit may be best BUT they require air in and exhaust out and your space for the pump is tiny which also causes some issues to ponder ! It certainly has to be something that won't run constantly but can run when needed & controlled via thermostat.
I've used my Mr Buddy heater in the pumphouse and while it warms up very fast, the humidity from the propane is terrible and the Co2 builds up quickly ! BTW the Low O2 sensor does work !, so the humidity is a consideration as well.
In the states, there are a number of small Vent Free propane heaters that have thermostats fairly cheap (they are not legal in Canada  ) and some will even use std batteries as ignitors & thermostat control... I haven't done much research on those as I can't get them but have seen them advertised on e-bay etc... I know some use Pilot Lights if that isn't a problem and that makes heat too and in such a small space may actually cut down on actual "real run time".
Something like this:
10k Btu Vent Free Propane or Natural Gas Infrared Space Heater w/ Thermostat There also appears to be smaller 6k BTU units as well.
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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 23 Nov 2015 10:01
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Here's the deal;
At one time, this would be a huge emergency.
But in our recent off grid learning experience here, we discovered we use less than 5 gal of water per day. This includes bathing, cooking and laundry.....not watering the garden or luxuriating in the kiddie pool in the summer months.
Push comes to shove, we can buy the water we need for winter.
Really don't wish to do that, but..... it's an option.
And yes, we began storing it all inside.
The hose.
An explanation is needed here to clarify the situation (sorry for the previous lack of detail)
The well is approx 150' from the cabin.
In summer we used a stout hose to get water to the cabin and garden.
The last two months we have carted the water to the cabin due to possible hose freeze up, and began storing the gallon and 5 gal jugs inside.
(kinda miss the icy swigs)
Also, the last few weeks I've completely drained the hose (of which I'm getting the shortest one I can find next trip to town).
All summer and early fall, this pump situation had been in the back of my mind.
And now, here it is.
Yes, I'm concerned about a little propane heater sucking oxygen.
However, the homemade door is not completely air tight.
Makes it interesting.
My present thought is to get the weakest heating device I can find and see how the battle goes.....
Cabi and I are studying oil lamp data.
Thermostat?
Just gonna trudge the 150' and shut it down or fire it up ever so often.
We really don't have a very tight schedule.
And this is the beauty of retirement.
Ice/freezing is now at the top of our agenda.
We are learning. No choice to the matter.
Whatever we do, there'll be immediate reward or immediately learning what does not work.
And this is the fun of it all.
Thank you, my cabin friends.
Any other suggestions are greatly appreciated.
Heh, we are entering another wrinkle of cabin life, one that will dictate action, some expenditure, and a bit of misery.
I'm doing what I can to keep that misery on the down low.
But
As I type, I'm very thankful I dedicated my attention to getting the wood stove in and the $700 we spent on the exterior pipe and connections.
And all the wood we cut.
Very very comfy.
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Just
Member
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# Posted: 23 Nov 2015 10:56
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just a hint , the first place a pumping system will freeze is in the tiny hose going to the pressure switch ,a cup of warm water will usually thaw it out ..
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NorthRick
Member
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# Posted: 23 Nov 2015 12:53
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Quoting: Gary O can'tno elect or solar, just a genny
Yes, I realize you are on a genny. My thought for your situation is to get some heat tape, wrap it around everything that holds water and then wrap things in a generous amount of insulation. Probably add some thermal mass inside the insulation like containers of water or bricks.
I'm assuming you run the genny for at least a little bit each day. Every time you run it, make sure the heat tape is on. That way you warm things up daily and hope the insulation keeps it from freezing before the next time the genny is on.
If you are in a real cold spell, use the propane heater as you are now to help keep it from freezing overnight.
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NorthRick
Member
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# Posted: 23 Nov 2015 14:15 - Edited by: NorthRick
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I had another idea that might work much better for your situation. Google "12V submersible pump" and look for one like the picture below. These will fit in a 2 inch well and you simply clip the leads to a 12v battery and the pump runs.
To use it, remove your current pump and piping, clear all the water out and store for the winter. Attach a suitable sized tubing to the submersible pump with a hose clamp. Lower the pump down the well until it is submerged in the water column. Secure the electrical wires and tubing to the side of the well casing to hold the pump in place.
When you need water, take a battery and your jugs out to the well house, stick the end of the tubing in a jug and clip the pump wires onto the battery. When done filling the jugs, unclip the wires from the battery. The pump will stop running and, even better, the water will drain back through the pump. It will pull the remaining water in the tubing back down as well.
Nothing to freeze or to keep warm. You will need to know how far down the water level in the well is and purchase a pump that is rated for that height.
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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 23 Nov 2015 19:52 - Edited by: Gary O
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Quoting: NorthRick Google "12V submersible pump" and look for one like the picture below. These will fit in a 2 inch well and you simply clip the leads to a 12v battery and the pump runs.
this I will do
had a bit of angst early this morn
temps dropped to 15°F, not the 28° predicted
fired up the little heater in the pump shed at around 7a
Quoting: Just the first place a pumping system will freeze is in the tiny hose going to the pressure switch
yup
hauled over the genny at around 11a
Quoting: Just your pump will not last the first night
please, no
prayerfully cranked it up
water
running
out here, simple things can cause elation, joy, gratitude
I'll get that skinny pump
not too eager to yank things out
may keep it on standby
getting the little buddy heater
thank you so much for the info, NorthRick
appreciated
keep a fire
snow coming in tonight...
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 23 Nov 2015 20:37 - Edited by: MtnDon
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Google Rule IL200, IL280 and IL500. They make those pumps. Designed as a bilge pump for marine use they don't perform well when confronted with a lot of rise. The 200 (200 GPH with no rise) drops to about a gallon a minute when pushing the water up 15 feet. There are a couple of higher capacity models; IL280 and IL500.
Grainger sells them. Amazon and West Marine also sell them. Worth a google if you don't need to lift the water more than 30 feet. And 30 feet will be slow delivery with the model IL200. Performance Chart at West Marine
The IL200 size has 2 versions. The one with the suffix P, is continuous duty. I don't recall what the duty cycle on the intermittent model is. I have had an IL200P for about 3 or 4 years now.
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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 23 Nov 2015 21:03
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Mtn (of information) Don
what else can I say......
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Topper
Member
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# Posted: 24 Nov 2015 03:46 - Edited by: Topper
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Quoting: MtnDon Google Rule IL200, IL280 and IL500. They make those pumps. Designed as a bilge pump for marine use they don't perform well when confronted with a lot of rise. The 200 (200 GPH with no rise) drops to about a gallon a minute when pushing the water up 15 feet. There are a couple of higher capacity models; IL280 and IL500.
Depending upon how high you have to raise the water, you may need two of the IL500 pumps installed inline, 8 feet apart.
They are pretty handy items to have around. One pump can be dedicated to transferring heating oil, &c. Another for showering, for example...
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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 24 Nov 2015 07:41
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Quoting: Topper you may need two of the IL500 pumps installed inline, 8 feet apart
good info
I'll check out the IL500
static level (last checked) was at 18 feet
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Topper
Member
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# Posted: 24 Nov 2015 13:34
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Quoting: Gary O static level (last checked) was at 18 feet
This fall we drove a well point. Checked my journal -- I initially have 10' of water in 24' of 2" well casing. With this, I'll need the two pump setup.
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Popeye
Member
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# Posted: 24 Nov 2015 13:51
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Since the water is only 18' down, get a pitcher pump.
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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 24 Nov 2015 14:12
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Quoting: Popeye get a pitcher pump
I have one
really hesitant to yank stuff out
I'd rather buy water for the cold months.....
but
that's a grand thought
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Julie2Oregon
Member
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# Posted: 24 Nov 2015 14:52
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Gary,
This is an aside, forgive me, but I was told that the Mount Mazama company delivers bulk water, not just bottled, via truck. I haven't been able to verify that online and don't wish to call them at this point. Would you happen to know if they do?
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silverwaterlady
Member
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# Posted: 24 Nov 2015 18:40
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How are you going to buy water if your snowed in?
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