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Coastal
Member
# Posted: 23 Jan 2014 10:44
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I love how anonymous assumes that since there is no permit, it will be a poorly constructed mess, with rats everywhere.

My neighbor is building a house right now, he told me he has to pay the city almost $100,000 before he even gets started, with permits and fees.

That really cuts into a budget.

I wouldn't be brave enough to try a whole large house without permit, just because the time frame takes to long and a city inspector is sure to be driving by at some point.

We do live on 10 acres, have really awesome neighbors, and I don't feel the need for permits. We converted an 1800sq ft barn into a really nice house for my mom, hired all the trades and a builder I used to work for, everything is done to code, but the city wouldn't allow a 2nd dwelling. We needed a second dwelling, so we built it.

Call us law breakers, but I'm not too concerned, it's been 8 years now and we're still here.

The other problem with dealing with cities, if you want to build something with new greener technologies, they don't understand it, it's not normal, you can't do it, they need engineers, they need this and that....

If you can't see it from the road, build it. ;)

cabinsloth
Member
# Posted: 23 Mar 2014 17:20
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what "they" have done, may apply everywhere, is once, building is found out and found to be habitual, they will come after you for backtaxes and fees, and they will look into how long said building may be there and tax from that point on....ex, if cabin has been there 10 years and they determine that its been there 15 years, guess what?? you need to have cash for 15 years of taxes and fines... tough to fight, and lost of land and cabin/home...
yes, it has been done...and with google/drones it makes there job easier and harder for you.
something to think about...

stickbowcrafter
Member
# Posted: 24 Mar 2014 09:48
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Interesting thread. I own 40 acres in rural, farm country in northeast Ohio. I don't live on the property but wanted to put up a building for storage and temporary shelter (cabin). I called the local building inspector and he was very nice and helpful. Told me as long as I wasn't living there permanantly it would be classified as an agricultural building and not subject to any permits. Nice that places like that still exist and even nicer that I own property in such a place.

With that being said, I live in the suburbs in western Pennsylvania and I have built several homes, including the one I currently live in. The permit process was extensive but reasonable back in 1998. I understand a lot has changed since then for the worst. But the same can be said for a lot of things in our society today. There are safety factors that necessitate the need for permits and inspectors. However, as often the case in government (especially a liberal/socialist one), the original good intention of a simple process is often over complicated and prostituted into something unrecognizable.

I feel sorry for those of you who have to deal with that. I am thankful my home building days are behind me but I look forward to all the building I have to do at my farm.

-Brian

Platz
Member
# Posted: 18 Apr 2014 18:20
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Hello everyone,

It's clear we want to live safe and as free as possible while maintaining safety within reason. This is where things have gone off-track. The laws have been constructed to force people to build as per the corporation sees fit for where the property is located. It's getting worse all the time until you have no wiggle room and you own nothing except "time access only".
For example, notice how software for PCs are becoming "cloud based" where the software isn't on your hard-drive but is accessed via the corporations server on a subscription?

Proposed Solution:
a) Stop arguing among ourselves....neighbor squealing on other neighbors. This is a situation where the government has trained their people to self-regulate each other as the government would. The eyes and ears of big brother. If you're trying to maintain or increase your property value, it's true value is not a monetary one. It's value is a warm, secure, and sustainable property for all life-forms. Live on it and pass it on when you're done with it.
b) Become part of your municipality (corporation) building and planning board....to change the system, you must know the system and become one with it in order to make changes.
c) Incorporate an unincorporated municipality....Form your own corporation with it's own bylaws (more laws on top of the country / provincial laws) that will attract like-minded individuals. This gives you the opportunity to "set the bar". If you're a rich snob, create a bylaw forcing people to build a house a minimum size of >1000sq.ft, with an indoor pool, and a specific species of lawn grass cut to a specific height.

The solution is hard. It requires:
1) Educating yourself (cause you know the education system does not want to show you how the system screws you point-for-point).
2) Eye for details. The devil is in the details.
3) Patients. This will take time.
4) Perseverance. Legal, financial, and public perception roadblocks will pop-up everywhere and all the time. There are ways around every problem. It's just hard to identify which path you want to take because you need to have a detailed plan that can be completed.

Remember what Ronald Reagan said, "Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction."....from Wikiquote.
Video / audio: URL

By operating illegally, you're satisfy your immediate means....that's selfish. Big brother sees this as a hole in their prison walls which must be sealed up with a law or two.
Instead, if you see that you want to live in a "tiny house", work with other like-minded individuals who can form a non-profit organization that can build "tiny homes" to RV standards. This way the structure is legal. The organization can provide the legal support while the owner provides the finances and labor (if agreed) for their structure.

Currently, people are convinced that if it's under the minimum building size (less than ~100 sq.ft. or something like that) they are automatically exempt. The law is written such that if you can live in it, you need a permit. Also, some laws are written such that if you're doing "installing, building, removing, modifying, renovating, etc" anything on the property, you need to apply for a permit. Remember, it's the corporations property and they want to know what is happening with their assets.

Wilbour
Member
# Posted: 18 Apr 2014 22:21
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Can't remember if I shared my findings but here's what I found. In Ontario you can build a storage shed under 100sqr.ft. without a permit. You cannot live in there for any period of time. This can be over-ridden by municipalities. In the one I was looking at the town would not allow any accessory building without a dwelling first. The dwelling must be at least 850sqr.ft. and have septic ect. Most places in Southern Ontario are like this.

Gary O
Member
# Posted: 19 Apr 2014 09:27
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Heh, if you live in the sticks, have likeminded neighbors, and aren't a complete idiot, you can build yer dwelling.......and live in it.

However, if you do tend to fall into the complete idiot dept and have been blessed with an overabundance of the nincompoop gene; it's still OK. Just keep busy, don't try to think too much.

This has been working for me for quite some time now.

So far

So good

beachman
Member
# Posted: 19 Apr 2014 11:07
Reply 


In NB Canada, the permit guys (Regional development Authority) will not approve anything after-the-fact. You will have a difficult time selling down the road with no permit but they will not make you do anything drastic (tear-down) as long as neighbors do not complain - or there is not environmental issues such as run-off or effluent problems. You are at the risk of your neighbors mainly.

Platz
Member
# Posted: 19 Apr 2014 15:08
Reply 


Legal method
Pros:
A committee double checks your proposed work to ensure it will be safe and built with good standards.
Increases property value since you have paperwork showing the work, expenses and approvals.

Cons:
More expensive regarding time, money, and knowledge.

Illegal method
Pros:
Initially least expensive regarding time, money, and knowledge.

Cons:
Probably not build to established safety standards. Even if you knew what you were doing, a second pair of eyes helps to catch mishaps.
More expensive in the long run if you need to conform to legal standards.
May not get full value for property improvements; depends on the buyer(s)...provided none of them alerts the building committee of what they saw while viewing / inquires about future improvements or bringing it into compliance.

You see, there's a greater risk following the illegal method.
Pick and choose what's important and work on those things.

For example, it's illegal in Ontario to use RWH (rainwater harvesting) as a potable water source. In fact, most places that doesn't suffer water shortages feel they have no immediate need to allow RWH for potable use.
Places like Australia, California, Texas, Ohio, Germany and other places do use RWH as a potable water source because they need it. It's risky to drink RW without educating yourself. The good news is that if you can collect RW off a roof (flushing the first few gallons due to high fecal and organic matter on the roof), you can process it into clean drinkable water. See WHO --> URL

Of course, collecting and purifying RW may not appeal to your local building code since it's not an established safety standard your locals are used to. You might have to compromise and start with an expensive drilled well for drinking, RWH for irrigation / toilet / washing car / etc. until you and others like you have collected enough data to support future law changes.

There are some places in US that prohibits RWH since they have written the law to say that you are stealing water that would otherwise end up on someone else's property therefore deeming the water that falls from the sky as someone else's assets before it is physically located within someone's boundaries. You must stand up and work for change.

turkeyhunter
Member
# Posted: 19 Apr 2014 22:22 - Edited by: turkeyhunter
Reply 


no permits for me....I am green and want to save the tree...that would cut down and used for the paper permit to be printed on...

Leaf in the Wind
Member
# Posted: 26 Jul 2014 09:14
Reply 


Build it. Tell the government to piss off. Until they start paying your mortgage I would do as I please. What they going to do? Take away your birthday? I get so sick of the government dictating what we can do or can not do on our own property. How are they really going to find out about your building? I'd just build it and tell 'em to f*#% off, but I am kind of a rebel that way. Good luck to you.

Ruggles
Member
# Posted: 26 Jul 2014 15:36
Reply 


I did my 12X16 without permits, not because of the cost but because the inspections associated with the build would have been impossible for me to do. I built on the weekends and there isn't a government inspector anywhere that works past 1700 on Friday.

Gary O
Member
# Posted: 26 Jul 2014 18:20 - Edited by: Gary O
Reply 


We have a healthy population ratio of off grid renegades in our neck-o'-the-pumice, some nice, some not so nice.

Heh, bldg. inspectors and even county sheriffs and staters only come to our area if they are called, and they hate being called.
They're afraid of not leaving in the vertical position.

I've been told that anyone that calls authorizes risks getting shot too.
S-o-o-o-o, we are in a bit of a comfort zone in regard to getting permits...... 'scuse me, in regard to NOT getting permits

turkeyhunter
Member
# Posted: 26 Jul 2014 22:05
Reply 


what's a PERMIT....lol
\
Ruggles~~Good for you!!!I am with ya..I font want the inspector on MY property!!!!

Gary O~~~ glad ya don't have to deal with permits or inspections either!!!

Don_P
Member
# Posted: 26 Jul 2014 23:17
Reply 


Can't say they are my favorite people but having seen the results of not doing it their way and I work on other people's homes, I'll render unto. Went to pull a permit a week ago and was asked if their excavator/ stone mason was a responsible land disturber. I allowed that he seemed pretty responsible to me... that didn't seem to be the desired answer. The 148 pages of regs and the test were online and the mason is definitely old school. The regs said that basically anyone involved in the project can be the RLD so I studied, took the test and now have another title for the resume... bona fide certified disturber gotta love 'em. It will be fun to go to the next planning commission meeting wearing that T shirt. The building official's tech seemed to think it was a fitting title, I do render unto, but not quietly

CabinBuilder
Admin
# Posted: 27 Jul 2014 16:33 - Edited by: CabinBuilder
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A reminder: although everyone is entitled to their opinion, this forum does not encourage unlawful construction.

Austin351
Member
# Posted: 5 Aug 2014 16:22 - Edited by: Austin351
Reply 


Disclaimer: I haven't read through all of the posts to see if my statements have already been made.

Building permits help protect you and everyone else that sets foot on or in your structure. If there is an accident and the insurance company / law / victim's family / etc finds it was never to code, you will be held liable in one way or another...

If you already know how to build it to code, why not do it?

If you think you can wing it, you can probably get the structure built. Sleep well wondering if you had enough to support that ridge beam you're looking up at.

Many have thought of an estimate of what the material costs will be. Some find they need additional money because of what the plan review revealed. The opposite of this is building how you think it should be built, and actually over building it. Thus, costing you more money.

Speaking of money, here is something that most people have no knowledge of. Your estimated value of the project (what you fill in on the application for permit) should ONLY BE FOR THE COST OF THE AREAS BEING INSPECTED! Lets say you are building a cabin that you figure will costs about $50K to get "move in ready". Do not include the costs of flooring, light fixtures, cabinets, sinks, wall covering, trim, paint, etc. You will base your price (varies from each state / jurisdiction) on foundation, framing, plumbing, electrical, insulation, and roofing. With these items, your estimated value may be closer to $30K....


Yes, I have built with and without permit in the past. Do it right the first time and never have to look back.

To the guy that can only have one dwelling on the parcel, the room in the barn is to be called a "craft room"

toyota_mdt_tech
Member
# Posted: 5 Aug 2014 21:12
Reply 


Quoting: CabinBuilder
A reminder: although everyone is entitled to their opinion, this forum does not encourage unlawful construction.



I would agree, but one can build legally without a permit if certain parameters are adhered too. But I think a cabin for habitation will always require a permit.

MtnDon
Member
# Posted: 5 Aug 2014 22:55
Reply 


Quoting: Austin351
should ONLY BE FOR THE COST OF THE AREAS BEING INSPECTED!


This may vary with location but here in NM the value is based on square footage and a formula that the permit office uses, not on what the owner builder says they will spend.

toyota_mdt_tech
Member
# Posted: 5 Aug 2014 23:11
Reply 


Don, its done the same here too. But they also count covered porch! Just an excuse to charge more.

bldginsp
Member
# Posted: 6 Aug 2014 00:15
Reply 


Permit fee structures are not dictated by the codes, they are arbitrarily developed and written by each separate jurisdiction. In my experience, it's quite easy to get different fee amounts for the same permit depending on how the local fee structure is interpreted for your project. You have the right to question the fees you are being charged, and sometimes you can get them reduced when the person who is charging the fees sees things a little differently than they did three minutes ago. A little polite eagerness can go a long way.

Don_P
Member
# Posted: 6 Aug 2014 06:52
Reply 


Ours are based on the area being inspected, including porches. For remodel I have to be careful to include all that I'll be getting into that is inspected, but nothing more. Sometimes difficult. I've been all over the current house digging and installing a basement under part, removal and replacement of floor joists under those rooms, reinsulate them and remodel then repair siding and roofing and repaint the entire thing. The repairs/repaint were not on the permit. The next one will be a total gut job, a much more expensive permit. In the adjoining jurisdiction it is based on amount. I've pulled the permit there on time and materials jobs with unknown scope and then gone back after final inspection and paid the permit fee based on actual numbers. For new work scope is a little better defined and so a number is easier to give but overall I prefer the area method. Back in the day a permit was $20 and the community subsidized the building department. This was a realization that we wanted to get folks into housing, a recognized benefit to the community as a whole. In our community we now try to make the building dept as self sustaining as possible thus the fees rose. In some communities they view the dept as an income generator and charge very high fees. I personally feel that construction is one of the most financially stressed times for a young family and we should help get them into housing. For second homes though my feelings are different, being fair in all this is a tall order.

beachman
Member
# Posted: 7 Aug 2014 19:43
Reply 


Obviously, we have a wide variation of opinions here. I guess that the permit process arose from people upsetting other people and sometimes hurting or even killing people with shoddy work. The process has taken on a life of it's own (think Frankenstein turning on it's creator). Just like most laws, they are there to give teeth to authorities who are called to act. But like most laws, the authorities look for any infraction to justify their own existence or to raise money. You build a railing on a deck that is over a certain hight so no one will fall and break their neck. If you build without a permit, make sure you do so responsibly. Otherwise, you risk kicking the sleeping dog. With drones, Google Earth and snoopy neighbors the days of pioneering are nearly over, if not over. Platz makes some good points - get involved or get with the program.

bldginsp
Member
# Posted: 7 Aug 2014 20:37 - Edited by: bldginsp
Reply 


In the early 1870s in a suburb of Chicago, a certain Mrs. Oleary went out one morning to milk her cow. She set down her lantern and got started, whereupon the cow kicked the lantern into the hay and caught the barn on fire. Okay, so, stuff happens, right? Problem is by the time they put out that fire, half the city of Chicago burned to the ground. This was a large part of the beginnings of the building codes, which, among other things, reduce fire hazards by various means.

But the codes have gone way, way beyond such basic safety rules and are so complex now that they resemble the tax code. I think the consequence of this may be that people will revolt, use the voters initiative process, or follow some politician who will take a hatchet to the codes and reduce or remove the basic safety provisions in the process of trying to reduce the excesses that exist. I would rather see a rational process of simplifying the codes to make it easier and less expensive to implement, but I don't see that happening.

We don't see many examples of bad building practices harming people because we have been raised in communities that have had most buildings inspected with permits for, at least, the basic safety stuff. So people don't see the negative effects, such as the Chicago fire or all the deaths that occurred shortly after Mr. Edison started installing wiring in all our houses, before the electric code. So the codes seem unecessary, just a bunch of bureaucratic bull that exists for no reason but to make money for the gubmint. When people see it that way, they say, "We've got to do something!"

So the public will be willing to trash the codes in the name of 'individual freedom', that is, until we start to see a lot of innocent deaths again, then people will say, "We've got to do something!" and the pendulum swings the other way.

Meanwhile, every time a three year old dies in a fire or some disaster that resulted from an inadequate building, the potential of a full life is ended because the adults couldn't figure out how else to behave.

Wilbour
Member
# Posted: 7 Aug 2014 21:40
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I am sure i have read all the posts at one time or another . If I'm not mistaken what the primary question was "Can I build without a permit ?" Not so much about the building codes but skirting town regulations . If you follow "Tiny Houses " you see fine examples of people living quite well in homes not permitted by most towns in Ontario . These people are living in homes without a mortgage when they could not otherwise afford for a large North American dwelling . Town regulations force our hands . I see monster homes being built on tiny lots all around me and feel we are moving in the wrong direction.

GregPS
Member
# Posted: 23 Aug 2015 12:22
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Some jerk parks his camper in his front yard. You drive down a nice country road and then woah! a big white camper. It pisses you off because you didn't buy a camper because you don't have enough room in your back yard.

(Whispering) This is the price we pay for freedom. Every time we go after some petty rule breaker, every time we prosecute a victimless crime, we become more and more like the statist totalitarian societies that our fathers and grandfathers have fought to keep us free from since the Revolutionary War on down through WWII and the Gulf War. I know a neighbor who renovated to the point where they stripped the house to the foundation. They then built a new home, all without permits. Sure, they broke rules. Sure they could be unsafe. When I built my home I did it by the book and I broke into a cold sweat each time I had an inspection knowing that a single decision by my building inspector could result in me losing everything. So it isn't fair that they didn't have to suffer like me. But this is America. I would never rat them out no matter how much they piss me off. We look out for our neighbors here in the USA. We take care of each other and defend FREEDOM ABOVE ALL. Rebellion is American. We don't live in cages made of steel or ink. Our friendly neighbor visited them one day. Walked right in their home! Mr. Friendly didn't see a permit. Well the next day they got a visit from the building inspector. They were hit with a stop work order on a house that was done and ordered the family and children to vacate their own home. They applied for a building permit and after 2 months waiting and a minimal fine they were able to continue with their lives. If you felt satisfaction reading that outcome then you are losing what it feels like to be free.

People who need to be in control and rely on rules to make them feel secure tend to have very rebellious children. Their children will teach them painful lessons on the human desire for freedom. For each punishment they dole out, their children do more and more outrageous acts. Kids who showed so much promise self-destruct as they mature in a desperate effort to establish room for their own identities. I was one who went down that path. My parents finally gave up, I found my own way forward and graduated tops in my class. I was careful to respect my kids freedom and individuality and so far I have been fortunate enough that they still respect me.

There is a price to pay for freedom and there is a price to pay for taking it away. When in doubt, choose freedom and we will all be a lot happier.

toyota_mdt_tech
Member
# Posted: 23 Aug 2015 18:06 - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
Reply 


Quoting: bldginsp
In the early 1870s in a suburb of Chicago, a certain Mrs. Oleary...


All good points bldg insp.
I think many codes are good, basic construction practices, ie the standard framing methods etc. But a guy who wants to build a nice storage shed, all up to code, not because the county mandated it, he didn't want it to collapse on him or his family, but cant "sleep in it". So if you have a toolshed, you are out working on the property, it starts to rain, you can retreat to it to get out of the rain, but you can not sleep in it. For you to sleep in it, its going to need a well, running water, toilet, septic system, X insulation in the floor, walls and ceiling etc.

So it has a lot to do with collecting tax revenue too but hidden in the name of safety.

I am for limited govt, not anarchy or no govt. As mentioned, it has become so complicated, many horror stories associated with applying for a permit, many times, I think the person giving the OK just likes to see one squirm a bit. Many peopkle are afraid of all the hassle and extra hoops required, and try to avoid the permit process. This makes it unsafe for those not up to speed on conventional building practices.

A permit should be a simple as getting a burger at a Mc Donalds drive through. then everyone can permit it and ends up nice and safe.

Gary O
Member
# Posted: 23 Aug 2015 23:32 - Edited by: Gary O
Reply 


Quoting: Coastal
The other problem with dealing with cities, if you want to build something with new greener technologies, they don't understand it, it's not normal, you can't do it, they need engineers, they need this and that....If you can't see it from the road, build it. ;)

Coastal......I....I... love you

Gary O
Member
# Posted: 23 Aug 2015 23:35
Reply 


Wow. Everbod's got an opine on the whys and why nots in regard to premits.
I ardy stated mine.

However

Someone mentioned insurance.
Ever wonder why things cost so gal darn much????

Man, what a gutless society.

That's my only opine on insurance.

And now, back to our regular programing...

bldginsp
Member
# Posted: 24 Aug 2015 09:04 - Edited by: bldginsp
Reply 


Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech
A permit should be a simple as getting a burger at a Mc Donalds drive through. then everyone can permit it and ends up nice and safe.


Would that it were so simple. In Europe they do things differently- they have no building inspectors, but you have to get a permit and go through plan check to ensure that your design is structurally safe and it meets local zoning rules. Then, the contractor or architect is responsible for the construction, no inspections except for the final. It makes sense to make the person building it responsible. And the process costs less if you are not paying inspectors (like me). But, the architects and contractors need to be licensed and trained, and this requires regulating them very closely, which we don't do here because we rely on inspections, and it would require that an owner/builder have an architect on site inspecting and certifying that the work was done to codes. One way or the other it needs to be checked by a qualified person, or you will end up with some installations that are downright scary. Then the 'builder' decides to sell, sells it to an unsuspecting buyer who moves in and has to live with the effects of the 'builder's' ignorance. 'But he said he was a good builder!' Yes, he did. They all say that. What else are they going to say? 'Well, I'm not such a great builder, but it sure has a nice paint job!'

Your freedom ends where the other guy's nose begins. Your freedom to build whatever you see fit ends when that building threatens the life, health and safety of the unsuspecting people that walk in the door or buy the place later. Freedom entails responsibility- ensuring that you have met your responsibility when building means using the democratic process of having your work checked against the law passed by your fellow citizens. Their freedom is important too, and they want to be free of the effects of your poor craftsmanship. If you are not a poor craftsman, and you do it right, what's wrong with getting it checked to prove it? Show me that you are a good builder, don't tell me about it. I'm an inspector, not a believer.

Gary O
Member
# Posted: 24 Aug 2015 10:28
Reply 


Kruchev is laughing in his tomb

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