Ontario - permits, planning/building inspector friendly townships

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Small Cabin Forum / Properties / Ontario - permits, planning/building inspector friendly townships


Author	Message
black_raven Member	# Posted: 7 Apr 2015 13:07 Reply Hi all Been reading for a while, decided to join I've been looking forever (well for a few years) for property in Ontario 10-50 acres where I can have a small cabin 200-400 sq ft. To be honest i'm getting kind of frustrated. When I have talked to various township building inspectors/planning departments I seem to get different attitudes from them. I was wondering if people wanted to share their experiences so we can all find friendly locales in which to look. I have found in south Frontenac that they're not very accommodating and there's no way you'll get a cabin, hunt camp etc. North Frontenac is ok..but way too far for me (same as port loring, restoule). In tweed they also say the same, but I hear that in actuality you can get away with a bunch there. in Marmora/madoc area they seem ok w/ 108 sq ft and under. In muskoka lakes if it is existing they seem ok...but doubt you can get a new one. Hastings...only ok if its 50 acres and over. If anybody has anything to add i'd be grateful, and I think it might benefit other small cabin dreamers. thanks

Tucker Member	# Posted: 7 Apr 2015 13:37 Reply If North Frontenac is too far then Lanark Highlands likely is as well, but everyone from the township I've dealt with has been very nice and accommodating so far. They seem quite open to development, understandable as there is little economic activity beyond lumbering, maple products, a bit of farming, and limited tourism.

Wilbour Member	# Posted: 7 Apr 2015 18:28 - Edited by: Wilbour Reply Do your research, both here and on the web. There are many great tips available in countless threads here. As for the townships, read, read, read all the papers available. Some town clerks just regurgitate the same thing over and over when there may be a challenge made for what you want to do. A lot of the information I read was ambiguous in my township. If they truly did not want a small camp built they could have said it loud and clear in bold letters but it's not! There is almost always some wiggle room if you challenge the documents. My township had no problem with me digging an outhouse without inspection or permit. Odd, they had no problem with me pooping wherever but did not want a "Shed" built without a home already established. But that was just one interpretation of the zoning. The best bet is to find an established camp and rebuild. What you don't want is to stir too many feathers. If you do contact the town, do so with your hat in your hands and remember to say please and thank you.

black_raven Member	# Posted: 8 Apr 2015 09:46 Reply Thanks for the info all...for sure i'll keep reading and keep trying. I think that I am going to have to up the budget to get something w/ an established camp like you said.

CanadianNorth Member	# Posted: 8 Apr 2015 11:18 Reply You want to find an unorganized township, which will allow you to build without a permit. Organized townships can often be "ruled" by little despots who sit on these rural councils and arbitrarily apply zoning restrictions based on their interpretation of the bylaws. Don't put yourself at the mercy of people who can create potential problems for you.

toyota_mdt_tech Member	# Posted: 8 Apr 2015 12:01 - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech Reply Quoting: CanadianNorth Organized townships can often be "ruled" by little despots who sit on these rural councils and arbitrarily apply zoning restrictions based on their interpretation of the bylaws Lots of truth to that too. Its hard to get info on what is needed. They will answer a direct question with a direct answer, but dont ever elaborate. So you have to ask all the right questions and hope you didnt miss anything. They act as if they are doing you a favor, when in reality, you want to develop the area (improve) and increase their tax base. It seems they like the ability to keep their thumbs on you. Even if you do it all right, they will still mamange to find or bring up an issue just to show you "they can" and its fun to see you squirm.

black_raven Member	# Posted: 8 Apr 2015 12:52 Reply Yeah I hear you. I just got a direct answer from Tweed that " No zoning [ in ontario where i was referring to ] allows for a 10x10' to be built alone or before a primary use. A hunting camp has a maximum square footage of 800 sq ft but no minimum size. A hunting camp classifies as a primary use. " so...you could build a 10x10 and call it a hunt camp and you're good...but the caveat is you need 100 acres in order to qualify for that Funny thing is when I called the township next door they said sure...under 108 sq ft you can do whatever...but I know in their bylaws it says it isn't allowed...so for sure...lots of doubletalk and interpretation.

Quad_Hunter Member	# Posted: 8 Apr 2015 17:42 Reply Myself, I purchase 100 ac's in Joly Twp last year. Did the nececcary clearing and planning on building this year (warm weather can't come soon enough)... There is no development fees, but I do need a building permit (no big deal....I'd rather do it this way and it protects you in the long run). As for a 10x10, not an issue either and I won't need a permit for it, (only thing is you need a prinicipal structure 1st prior to any other structures). I talked to building guy and basically I'm building a "sleeping cabin". Bylaw in Joly is I'm supposed to get a septic permit 1st prior to a building permit. Called the North Bay consveration authority who issues the permits. Told them I only wish to apply for a class 1 septic system (outhouse) and was told I don't need a permit for class 1 and they do not issue for just a class 1......So...how do I get a building permit without a septic permit that they won't issue??? Girl was really helpful and said.....no worries, I'll just call the inspector in that area and advised them to go ahead and issue building permit as they are to busy to come to site for visit. Bottom line, do your homework and word it correctly when on the phone with these people. Apparent secret to sleeping cabin and class 1 system. No running water at camp or cooking facilities in plans submitted. Apparently there is always ways around the system you just have to word it correctly.

Wilbour Member	# Posted: 8 Apr 2015 18:29 Reply Quoting: black_raven before a primary use This wording is prevalent in most areas in Southern Ontario. Fact of the matter is, they'd be in a fight to prove that my camping and gardening are NOT my primary use. As mine is established as such then you have the right to build a shed to house your camping and gardening tools. Primary use dose not automatically mean "Primary Building"

leonk Member	# Posted: 8 Apr 2015 21:16 Reply quad, that is very useful. I've been hunting on the other side of hw11 for years. how much the land goes for in Joly?

Quad_Hunter Member	# Posted: 8 Apr 2015 21:23 Reply Got 100ac's last year on a private sale. $50k. Buddy owns 200 on one side of me, and 100 crown on other.

felineman Member	# Posted: 9 Apr 2015 01:14 Reply A principle building MUST be min 780 sq ft by OBC, unless you find somewhere so remote that they will never send an inspector out. I have 2010 acres in north Ontario 300 km from nearest town and even there they send someone out. If you want no permits or inspectors you have to go to Alaska and even there they have fly over. The days of building without permits is over world wide. Either build it right or don't build it at all. Sorry but I have researched this for over 12 years now in almost every country and its the same everywhere. Except maybe Australia where you build underground. You need a permit to do any electrical plumbing or modification to any existing building in Canada, there is nowhere to get around it. It MUST be inspected and the no permit for 10 x 10 is ONLY after your main building is done OBC says 780 sq ft min but local can over rule that and most are 1000 sq ft min. so 780 sq ft is for unincorporated townships and the larger for inside a township, no matter the type of building.

CanadianNorth Member	# Posted: 9 Apr 2015 19:56 Reply Quoting: felineman A principle building MUST be min 780 sq ft by OBC It is my understanding that the Ontario Building Code (OBC) does not apply to unorganized townships in Ontario. There is only electrical and septic but not building inspection.

leonk Member	# Posted: 9 Apr 2015 22:16 Reply Thanks, quad. Is it on 4 season road? My head spins every time I read this stuff about permits.

MtnDon Member	# Posted: 9 Apr 2015 23:32 Reply A pertinent Ontario Government document A couple of quotes.... "Since 1976, the Ontario Building Code has set the minimum standard for the design and construction of all new buildings and for additions, alterations and change of use of existing buildings in the Province of Ontario. The Code is a mandatory document used by architects, engineers, designers, builders, suppliers and manufacturers with regard to construction projects which are regulated by the Code. ...." "Every municipality in Ontario is given the responsibility for the enforcement of the Building Code Act and the Code. It requires them to appoint a Chief Building Official and inspectors to issue permits and perform inspections. ...." So I believe what have here is once again the difference between having a law and the enforcement of the law. Here in the USA there are many locations where there seems to be no building codes. However when one looks deeper it usually becomes obvious that what is lacking is local enforcement of the codes. That is quite often a result of local jurisdictions with low budgets which can be a result of low population density. Quite often the only codes that do get strictly enforced state wide are the sanitation codes.

Wilbour Member	# Posted: 10 Apr 2015 00:17 Reply Don't confuse "Principal building " and "Primary use"

leonk Member	# Posted: 10 Apr 2015 17:24 - Edited by: leonk Reply MtnDon, IIIRC OBC doesn't specify minimum dwelling size, that's prescribed by townships. If one builds in unorganized township, it has to be done to the code (OBC), however no permit and no inspections. There are townships in ON that allow hunt camps or sleeping cabins around 600-800 sq ft. Bottom line, the rules and laws are multi level and pretty complicated. Everyone needs to check their own local by-laws in addition to the OBC. But of course, you're right, enforcement is the key. My neighbour is by-law enforcement officer and he said it multiple times - there's only a problem if someone complains. http://tinyhouseontario.com/category/building-code/

morock Member	# Posted: 10 Apr 2015 23:04 Reply Quad - I used to tromp around Joly about 25 years ago. An old VW bug with no doors and big tires. I love that area. You are a luck man. Not many people here will know where you are.

Quad_Hunter Member	# Posted: 11 Apr 2015 18:38 - Edited by: Quad_Hunter Reply Thanks Morock, I've been hunting this area for moose/deer for 25years. Timing and good luck was on my side. Now the build ! I'm usually wanting the fall to appear, but this year Spring/Summer can't come soon enough this year!

Ontario lakeside Member	# Posted: 11 Apr 2015 22:12 - Edited by: Ontario lakeside Reply Hey all My experience may be helpful. Minimum building size depends on zoning, zoning is done at the local level. Im my case I am zoned Limited service residential. This is because we are water access and have no electrical service to our property. In our township the minimum habitable building size on a LSR property is 528SF. No accessory buildings can be built before the primary building is complete. Now we had a 100SF bunkie for several years before the main cottage application and had no problem at all. Several other lots in our area have 100SF cabins and have had no issue. When my cottage was inspected the inspector saw several of these cabins and made no comment. I believe that if you don't cause you neighbours to make a complaint you are probable going to be ignored. We are not in an unincorporated township, we are 2 hours from Toronto. So don't lose hope you can build smaller that 780SF legally Hope it helps

Wilbour Member	# Posted: 12 Apr 2015 22:10 Reply Quoting: Ontario lakeside When my cottage was inspected the inspector saw several of these cabins and made no comment. Funny you should mention that. I had an inspector look at the shed on my the property i ended up buying. While he gave me his assessment of my shed he did see the two bunkies in the two neighborIng lots and he said nothing. Kinda reminded me of Shultz from Hogans Heros, "I know nothing"

creeky Member	# Posted: 14 Apr 2015 14:59 Reply I'll second Shultz. When I put my lane in the area road guy drove by while I was spreading 3" stone with a tractor. Not very quiet. He spent the entire time admiring the farmer's field across the road. I see nutink!

black_raven Member	# Posted: 4 Jun 2015 13:48 Reply UPDATE: So..i finally bit the bullet and bought a property. I ended up finding a property with an established cabin (around 450 sqft) with an additional trailer. the property itself is smaller than I wanted at less than 2 acres, but it backs onto lots of conservation land and it has lake access that is reserved for the local landowners. (not a land condo) I'm gonna need to do a bunch of work, including putting on a metal roof to replace aging shingles, fix a sagging cinder block foundation on one corner, and a few other things...but i'm on my way Pretty excited! Good news is the township seems pretty cool as well. I asked about woodstove permits and they said just go ahead. Also I can rebuild, extend, put up a Bunkie etc. etc. There goes the weekends for the next few years!

Quad_Hunter Member	# Posted: 4 Jun 2015 14:21 Reply Congrats, Now the works really starts ! But it's funny how it really isn't considered work when your enjoying it !

Steve_S Member	# Posted: 4 Jun 2015 15:32 Reply Good News ! Glad you found a place that works for you and sounds like you have the flexibility to do things over the way you want. I have thought many times that it would have been nice to start off with something and build upon it (usually when I'm grumbling) rather than doing it from scratch BUT I have renovated & expanded before and I'm not missing the "drunken sailor talk" that was used extensively in those days... I'll make a suggestion to you... Don't rush, stay out there a little bit while tidying up etc... get a feel for the place, walk around, peek into nooks & crannies and see what's all there... Relax and sit back with a cold one, looking at the property and try to visualize different things your pondering and seeing how it might all fit together in bits & pieces (as time will permit). Take it slow and enjoy it ! I dunno if your going to be using it in winter but certainly get out there a few times and see where the drifting goes and where things will pile up, so you can consider that when you want to build more like a Bunkie etc...

bldginsp Member	# Posted: 4 Jun 2015 16:27 Reply There is a lot in this thread about the power of interpretation by the local authority, as though you need to 'find the nice guys' to be able to do what you want. I say don't pay too much attention to their interpretation, pay more attention to what the law actually says and hold their feet to the fire. If you don't know the law and assume that what they say goes, in effect it does. If you do know the law and can cite specific provisions, you might embarrass a few pompous civil servants, but so what? They have to follow the law. Keep it law based, not fear based. That said, there are some aspects of law that are open to interpretation, in which case you need to find out how they handle it. But don't assume that their interpretation is written in stone. Many times I've seen interpretations 'reinterpreted' because a specific individual pushed hard. Won't always get you what you want. A friendly attitude that shows you are a cooperative law-abiding citizen goes a long way too. Civil servants always take note of someone who knows the law, because the civil servant knows if they exceed the law it can bite them in the butt hard.

Don_P Member	# Posted: 5 Jun 2015 21:19 Reply I agree. A few months ago he knew I was going to get an inspection on one phase of a multi step pour and would be asking for a pass on having to call him for each pour. He walked in and during the course of the inspection asked why we weren't doing code reinforcement. I replied that we were going above code and roughly quoted the table specs from memory. I apparently passed the little quizz. I doubt he knew the exact rebar spec for a 10" poured wall with 7' of unbalanced fill. He was really wanting to see if I had checked my work. I didn't respond with " Looks good to me", or, "I've been doing it this way for 35 years" (to which I always think, shut up fool!, you've just described a class action), I politely replied with the code cite showing we had an understanding of and agreement on intent, we got a pass The trick is in maintaining a friendly relationship while taking a chomp out of their backside. At a certain point one of us will often give the other a look that says "as a matter of fact I do know, don't make me prove it."

bldginsp Member	# Posted: 5 Jun 2015 21:35 Reply It's all about CYB, cover your butt, but often it's about whose bluster can cause the other to fluster, because neither of us wants to bother to pull out the code and actually cite it. Cause I might be wrong and then I look really bad. But the citizens with the wherewithal and gumption (huztpah, hubris) to whap the 'authority' up side the head with well-researched law usually prevail. That is, if they researched thoroughly....