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murphymunday
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# Posted: 23 Jun 2015 10:16 - Edited by: murphymunday
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Hello! So glad to run across this Small Cabin website, there's so much helpful information here! Here's my question : is it worthwhile to invest in land & an incomplete cabin?
I'm looking at a 3 acre property in Stone Ridge, NY with a partially-built modern cabin in place. There are architectural plans and framework in place, but it needs quite a bit of work to finish it - all interior work, electric, plumbing, new dug well, replaced septic. We love the style of the cabin and the property itself!
I'm wondering if anyone has experience buying a partially-finished cabin? I've attached a PDF of the existing architectural plan and a couple photos of the current build to get a sense of the progress. My husband and I have no building experience, so we would definitely be hiring out a General Contractor to oversee the project as a whole.
Any thoughts, experience, feedback, or questions are greatly appreciated!
Here's a link to the photos!
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 23 Jun 2015 10:22 - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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Looking at the framing, it looks very nicely done and professional. I am not big on the style, but that is just ones personal preference. If you like the style, I wouldnt be afraid. How is the foundation done? Post and pier, look it over well.
Was the septic done with a design/permit? Just make sure it was permitted so your not stuck with something that doenst meet specs or bootlegged build that could bite later on down the road.
Strange abrupt end to the siding in several areas. looks like they ran out of material??? But I suspect it was done deliberatly???
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murphymunday
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# Posted: 23 Jun 2015 10:34
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toyota_mdt_tech Thanks so much for your response! The owner built it on his own, so I want to be very thorough with an inspection! But before throwing money towards it, I wanted to get a sense of if it's a good idea in general or not... Thank you for your input!
Septic in place is an old metal one, so it needs to be permitted and replaced in the future. The siding is indeed a little quirky, but intentional. I don't mind it, personally 
Property / home is listed for sale at $119,000. The land value is good. My concern is the cost to finish.... $8,000 for the well ~$5,000 for the septic ~$60,000 to finish the 900 sq ft. cabin. That brings the total cost to nearly $200,000 all in.
In the end, we'd have a modern little weekend cabin with a nice piece of land - something you can't find in Brooklyn (where we reside), but is the $200,000 investment worth it???
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deryk
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# Posted: 23 Jun 2015 11:13
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that is a lot of money. You could buy 5 acres within 2 hours of NYC for under 20k, and build your own design for a lot less money. I read an article online today about what people are willing to pay for a cute "tiny" house. Sorry you can build a small house or cabin for a lot less then what you are looking to spend.
Sure if I came into a big chunk of money and could buy 50 or 60 acres of land I have seen some nicely designed smaller homes under 100k and would have a hug piece of land for privacy and to really feel that you are out in the woods.
But, to each their own.
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ColdFlame
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# Posted: 23 Jun 2015 11:55
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Murphymunday: "Worth it" is very much something that's different for each person. I happen to really like the modern style/esthetic of the structure.
I'll echo Toyota's sentiment - I agree that the framing looks like it was done very well, but looking at the foundation, it looks like it's just resting on concrete deck blocks - if so, I'd be wary and make sure it's very well inspected.
Going back to the price - considering what the price of real estate in and around NYC is, it seems like quite a bargain for your own piece of heaven within 2-3 hours of Brooklyn. Look at comparables in the area and see what it would sell for finished. Depending on the current owners situation, he may be looking to unload it quickly. Chances are that he's out of money considering how specific he built the design, so that is potentially a great opportunity for you.
Keep us apprised of the situation and, if you purchase, document the build and post progress photos!
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 23 Jun 2015 15:27
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Did the builder get permits to build? If not, and the building dept finds out, you will have a problem on your hands.
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rockies
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# Posted: 23 Jun 2015 18:00
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Since there are architectural plans I would guess that the cabin has been correctly designed and engineered. If the client went to all that trouble I would also guess that he built the cabin as per the plans.
It looks like the main space is built on a proper concrete wall and the den area is built on piers. I would contact the architect listed on the drawing and ask for any info on the build. usually clients stay in contact with the architect even if they build it themselves. Also ask the owners who they used for concrete work, roofing work, etc. Most people who build it themselves still contract out the bigger, more difficult tasks.
If you like the property and the cabin, then buy it. $60 grand to finish it is just a random number now, and that all depends on how well you shop for sales, how fast you want it done, what level of finishing you want, etc.
In the end, if it turns out to be not what you really wanted, then sell it. Lots of people will want a beautiful modern cabin close to New York in the coming years.
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Don_P
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# Posted: 23 Jun 2015 19:46
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If there will be a GC later find them now and have them look it over and give you an estimate. If there is bank financing you'll need that going in anyway. This also puts another builders eyes on it for you up front.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 23 Jun 2015 22:06 - Edited by: bldginsp
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If it was built without permits, even if it was built to code, the building department will require that the owner prove it was built to code. This means proving that there is rebar in the concrete, a difficult thing to do. If built without permits, you don't know if it meets zoning laws, if not, you can't permit it no matter how well it was built. Verify that it went through the process, or that it can, or be aware of the risks you are buying if it was not. I strongly suggest you think long and hard before buying an unpermitted structure. Hopefully the issue is irrelevant and it is on a permit. But don't buy now and find out later.
Worst case scenario is that the reason it is for sale is that the building department caught them building without permits and slapped a stop work order on them, now they are selling it without telling you that that is the case, in which case you are in for a surprise as soon as the county recorder records the change of ownership. Again, hopefully nothing like this is the case, and it is permitted. It's easy to check. You can show up at the building department and request records on the parcel of any/all permits pulled on the place. You don't need to tell them that there is a structure there, you are just asking for records, and all permits are public record. Also, the seller has a legal obligation to disclose all they know about the property, but that doesn't mean they always do. I could tell you stories.
Verify permits before you buy. DON'T listen to real estate agents. Their motivation is to sell, not disclose.
As far as 'should we buy a half-built building' goes, to a certain extent this is an advantage (if permitted). They have to charge less because it is incomplete. But the major structural work is complete, which is the hardest part. You could finish out the inside for less than $10,000 if you are hard working and frugal, or a lot more if you hire someone and have a taste for travertine. But you can do it over time, years if you choose. Might be a relatively inexpensive way to get an up-state hide-a-way.
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murphymunday
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# Posted: 24 Jun 2015 14:30
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deryk It's true, but there's something nice about not starting the whole process from scratch. The location is pretty wonderful, too
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murphymunday
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# Posted: 24 Jun 2015 14:32
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ColdFlame Thanks so much for your input! It's so nice to hear other people's thoughts on this. I do think that it's a pretty fair and average price and could resell well down the road. It's kind of wild that there aren't too many small "modern" cabins in the area nearby to compare to... then again, the majority of homes Upstate are 3+ bedrooms.
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murphymunday
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# Posted: 24 Jun 2015 14:33
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bldginsp Great though! I called the town permit department and there is indeed an open permit for a 1 bedroom residence, so it looks like we are good there!
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murphymunday
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# Posted: 24 Jun 2015 14:37
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rockies I agree with you and do believe the current owner (who did most of the framing work himself) did a pretty solid job on the framing and went through the trouble of having the plans made in the first place. No doubt a lot of planning and money went into this. From what I understand their financial situation changed and therefore, they couldn't finish the building.
I will for sure have the foundation checked, but I do think that part is on a poured concrete slab and part is on piers.
Love your thought on going for it. Never know until you try!! Thanks again!
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murphymunday
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# Posted: 24 Jun 2015 14:41
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bldginsp Checked with the building department and there is an open permit for this 1 bedroom residence, so that's a relief! I really, really appreciate your feedback and for the steps to take to find answers - really helped this newbie out!
The reason for the sale is that the owner's financial situation changed and they couldn't finish the building. So, I think there's room to come down on the asking price considering that situation.
$10k would be awesome to finish the cabin, but my husband and I don't know where to begin with building, so we would definitely need a GC and help!!
Thank you again for your information and opinion! Really appreciate it!!
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 24 Jun 2015 15:30
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That's good news. You could also verify that all of the inspections done so far have passed (probably so).
Be aware that a permit will expire if more than 6mo. or 1 year pass between inspections. Then you have to pay renewal fees, sometimes all the original fees. Might be a while since they got an inspection. If it's close to expiration you can write a letter to the building department requesting an extension, but they have to receive the letter before the expiration date. That's how most departments do it.
Good luck! Nice building!
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Kudzu
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# Posted: 24 Jun 2015 18:12
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Will you own your mineral rights? This will probably be a hard sell for the owner, I would wait awhile then lowball him. Good Luck, I like the look.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 24 Jun 2015 21:14
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Where I built my cabin (this will vary by area) the permit was good for 18 months, then I had one extension for another 18 months. Then after that, same fees as original permit again all over again and good for 18 months.
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Don_P
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# Posted: 24 Jun 2015 22:54
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This really varies as I've worked around the country. Some jurisdictions hit you all over again after 6 months, at the other end some just want to see you every six months or so and see that you are still progressing.
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murphymunday
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# Posted: 25 Jun 2015 10:41
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bldginsp Good to know! Thanks! I'll post any updates or decisions when we have them!
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murphymunday
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# Posted: 25 Jun 2015 10:46
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Kudzu GREAT question - something for me to find out, for sure. Thanks!!
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murphymunday
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# Posted: 25 Jun 2015 10:48 - Edited by: murphymunday
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toyota_mdt_tech Don_P Thanks for sharing your experiences and information! I'll make another call to determine when the permit expires.
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smallworks
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# Posted: 28 Jun 2015 23:35
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Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech Was the septic done with a design/permit? Just make sure it was permitted so your not stuck with something that doenst meet specs or bootlegged build that could bite later on down the road. Strange abrupt end to the siding in several areas. looks like they ran out of material??? But I suspect it was done deliberatly??? Agree. [quote=murphymunday]I'm looking at a 3 acre property in Stone Ridge, NY
Hey Murphy,
we live in the next hamlet over. Mind the building inspector and triple cross the t's and i's
Also, "what is worth it?" This is a lot of money IMO but money is a tool. If it feels right and you can do it, go for it.
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murphymunday
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# Posted: 29 Jun 2015 11:53
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smallworks Thanks so much for your input! We will be sure to be very thorough with the inspector!
It's a tough question... "worth it". There's value in the pride of owning some land and a home, there's value in the comfort of a get-away cabin outside of NYC, and value in the process, as well as finalizing a home with fixtures that make us happy. Hard to put a price on happiness! I guess our hope is that if / when we turn around to sell, we could get out of it the money we put in to it or maybe a hint more... Either way, the escape and quality of life enhancements are more than worth it!
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rayyy
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# Posted: 29 Jun 2015 16:58
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It look's to me that there is about $2000.00 in lumber and materials in this cabin and 3 acres of land under it.Anywhere else in NYS you'd be looking at about $15 to $40 thousand dollars for something like this so $119,000 to me is just crazy.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 29 Jun 2015 17:06 - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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Wow, wholesale lumber source? The lumber to do my shell was $4000 and its much smaller than that (236 sq feet, 288 incl porch), only 8 foot walls too, no vaulted ceilings. Then there was the labor to cut it and nail it all together.
I see OP has no OSB, (cheap glue smelling wood that turns into sawdust if it ever gets wet, I hate the stuff) but real plywood too, big studs in the wall too. Looks overbuilt. Which is good. 
Helped a buddy build a 10X12 (14X12 w/porch) toolshed and that was close to $5000 for lumber/materials to get it to the picture below.
And I thought all land in NY was expensive? Not sure what the market is there. But I know cabins in NY cost loads of $$$ like anything in NY
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smallworks
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# Posted: 29 Jun 2015 23:47
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It depends on where you are, skills and bartering. NY is rural in between the buttons.
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murphymunday
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# Posted: 30 Jun 2015 11:25
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rayyy Thanks for your input! I do think the wood and materials they used are quality. I also know they hired an architect to create plans for them (which I have now). I do think they have put about $100,000 into this from buying the land, demolition on an old house on the property, permits, building, materials, etc. Still does feel both high and low at the same time to me!
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murphymunday
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# Posted: 30 Jun 2015 11:29
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toyota_mdt_tech So nice to see your building and costs for those materials! Thanks for sharing. Land in this area is on the higher side, it's close enough to some emerging towns, on a winding hilly road, nice area nearby. GOOD cabins cost LOADS, so does a little piece of property that offers a feeling of privacy.
Still debating....
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fickle_serendipity
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# Posted: 30 Jun 2015 14:54 - Edited by: fickle_serendipity
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Quoting: murphymunday $10k would be awesome to finish the cabin, but my husband and I don't know where to begin with building, so we would definitely need a GC and help!!
Don't underestimate the potential two people like yourselves have. It would definitely take longer to finish, but definitely cost a whole lot less too! I firmly believe you can learn to do the work yourself with much determination and the willingness to learn. The crucial framing part is done. Ask many questions....become an expert at that, and don't be too embarrassed. That is what this forum is all about. Start small, and as you complete each task your skills and your confidence will strengthen. There is much to be said for the pride one feels at the end of a working weekend and the task at hand is complete. It is mind over matter! And don't be afraid of making mistakes....that's what a "do over" is for, if necessary
I am excited to see what you decide to do. A place to get-away to can be wonderful. There has been great advice given to you in the previous post. I just wanted to add my 2 cents and remind you not to "too quickly" disregard your own abilities
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creeky
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# Posted: 30 Jun 2015 15:23
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He pulled permits. He has plans. The build quality looks good and it's closed in. From the limited pics I see over 2k just in doors.
But it's a shell. And, not to be post modern design guy, the facade is unbalanced and not particularly well thought out. The space inside does look amazing tho.
So it's down to finishes. No insulation. No drywall. No electric. No plumbing. Ouch.
If there's trouble with the well and septic maybe that's the real reason they want out. And electric can be a real killer. you document the well and septic cost but why is there no power?
The nice thing is you can finish it to your taste, on your budget, at your pace. And "modern" can be done to any budget.
And i hear ya on land cost. Some people fainted at my property cost, but local lots are selling at 5-6 times the per acre cost now.
good luck.
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