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MtnDon
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# Posted: 9 Mar 2012 11:20 - Edited by: MtnDon
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Inspired from another thread.
There are many types of taxes and many different views on those taxes as to their fairness, usefulness, etc. I break taxes into 4 main groups; Property Tax(based on land value), Income Tax (earned and investment), Sales Tax (called gross receipts in some places), Taxes that are Fees (the variety of construction permits, drivers licenses, etc.
I hope this doesn't grow into a melee. I'll state up front that my politics are varied; I subscribe to the "cafeteria plan" premise. A little from the left, a little from the right and a bunch from the middle.
School taxes were mentioned, with the thought that they were unfair to those people who do not have children. School taxes are usually assessed on property values and collected from the property owner. I believe all property owners should pay school taxes even if they never have kids, or even if their kids are grown up. Why? I believe education benefits more than just the individual being educated. We all end up benefiting from each other being educated to whatever level we are capable of.
To say that each person/couple is solely responsible for the education of their children is to divide people into different classes and keep them there. IMO.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 9 Mar 2012 15:44
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Some folks will make similar arguments against almost every use of money for public facilities...
Libraries
Pools
Walking / Hiking / Bicycle paths
Parks and Green areas
Skateboard parks
Dog walk parks
Senior Citizen recreation centers
My city has all of the above and I only use three of them. But I think that is okay. It's all a part of what makes the character of our society.
On the other hand I get very upset with the waste and misuse of public (tax) money which includes outright theft. ....
Use of public vehicles for personal business
Use of gov credit cards for personal vehicle fuel
... Not to mention kickbacks, etc.
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dstraate
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# Posted: 9 Mar 2012 16:35
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Jerome Block?
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mrcvs
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# Posted: 9 Mar 2012 16:58
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I believe that all taxes should be through consumption taxes. You consume, you pay more in taxes. You have more children, they consume more, and then you get hit with even more taxes. If you save and invest and earn an income, this should not be taxed. If yu=ou can't afford to have kids, and probably privately educate them, then don't have kids.
The income tax was enacted in 1913 to go after big money--I believe, in those days, you had to have an income of at least $25,000. That's probably well in excess of a million dollars annually today. Going after the middle income for taxes was NOT the intent of the initial Federal Income tax. Congress decided to spend, spend, spend, and this is how the middle class came to be taxed. Let the big corporations and the consumer pay all the taxes, NOT the income earners, investors, and property owners!
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Martian
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# Posted: 9 Mar 2012 18:34 - Edited by: Martian
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mrcvs, I tend to agree. Taxes were the method used to keep money circulating.
My theory:Monopoly, the game, teaches us what happens in capitalism; Money rises to the top. In the game, we're all given the same amount to start, but in the real world, some shmuck earns a few bucks on his job, and he spends it. That creates jobs for his fellow shmucks and some of it goes up the chain to the suppliers investors. Everytime money goes round in the economy, some of it goes up the chain to the investors. Eventually, most of the money reaches the top and has a tendency to float there. In Monopoly, we win when someone gets all the money; GAME OVER. The only way to prolong the game is if some of that money gets back in the hands of the players. That's the role government has in a capitalistic society; take just enough money from the top to keep the game going, but not so much that the better players lose interest in the game.
Jobs don't get created by a few rich people playing in the stock market; its Joe Schmucks spending his money that creates jobs. One person spending $1,000,000 isn't nearly as good for Main Street as 1000 people spending $1000. If the government spends the money on capital improvements, like roads, bridges, school, etc, then Joe Schmuck has a job, money to spend, and a nice world in which to live, but it has to be paid for as we go.
Until 1980, we did that. Then, President Reagan cut taxes on the upper incomes, and started borrowing money to the tune of a 168% increase in government debt before he left office. It continued administration after administration. Except for under President Clinton, the economy and the debt have grown at the same rate ever since. We have financed our growth and let the money stay at the top.
I guess thats a long-winded way to say I agree with you. If we don't get some of the money floating around up top down to the bottom, and keep as much as possible of it in Joe Schmuck's pocket so he can spend it, then we will go the way of a game of Monopoly; GAME OVER.
Tom
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mrcvs
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# Posted: 10 Mar 2012 08:15
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The way to get money into Joe Schmuck's pocket is to produce high-quality goods in this country, and emply skilled craftsmen, instead of importing cheap junk from overseas. In short, a high tariff would solve this problem.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 10 Mar 2012 10:48
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High tariffs are not the answer. They have unintended consequences. Most often they "protect" an industry that needs modernizing, protect industries that are inefficient, and protect those jobs at the cost of other jobs.
Some good reading on tariffs.
http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/protectionism-hurts-consumers
http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/tempting-path-protectionism
http://american-business.org/2753-tariffs.html
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TomChum
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# Posted: 10 Mar 2012 11:34 - Edited by: TomChum
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Quoting: MtnDon I guess thats a long-winded way to say I agree with you. If we don't get some of the money floating around up top down to the bottom, and keep as much as possible of it in Joe Schmuck's pocket so he can spend it, then we will go the way of a game of Monopoly; GAME OVER.
How true. But there are winners and losers in Monopoly too, and it's not GAME OVER just because Joe Schmuck has lost. Joe Schmuck is on his way out, currently buying stuff from Joe Chang, ensuring that Mr Chang will beat him in the game. But yes, when all the money is taken out, there will be a GAME OVER.
Joe Schmuck also thinks that big oil and big insurance are on his side, and is willing to do their bidding. They want him to HELP take money from him that never returns to the economy and he's more than wiling to do so if allowed a few trinkets. Joe Schmuck is building his own coffin, and pleased beyond all getout that he has the money to buy the materials, the tools to build it and the truck to haul it. He'll cut holes in the side so he can reach around to pound the nails in the top. For now it's all good.
Joe Schmuck would be wise to notice that when the government wastes money INSIDE our borders, that's not so bad, his buddies get jobs. When he or the government spends money outside our borders, it's gone. Buying from China, or Dubai are examples. War spending within our borders props up the economy on the short-term, but incredibly wasteful and short-sighted because we don't get anything durable out of it like schools, roads, or usable infrastructure.
Countries spending their wealth on their own infrastructure are positioning themselves to kick our asses. Countries allowing people and mega corporations to take the money out of the economy are headed downhill, broke. In the end, the corporations and people who have all the wealth will have the freedom to move to the countries with the great infrastructure. Which they will need for protection.
We are lucky to live in these times.
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Martian
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# Posted: 10 Mar 2012 12:47
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Quoting: TomChum War spending within our borders props up the economy on the short-term, but incredibly wasteful and short-sighted because we don't get anything durable out of it like schools, roads, or usable infrastructure.
Tom, I couldn't agree more. We spend way to much money on "consumables". All materials of war are consumables. They only add value to the economy in the initial purchase. We need to be spending on those things that add value after they are aquired.
Tom
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hattie
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# Posted: 10 Mar 2012 12:51
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The rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer and the middle class is shrinking to oblivion. Pretty soon there will be two classes - rich and poor. I'm so absolutely disgusted with our Canadian government and it really bothers me because I used to consider myself a very Proud Canadian!
I recently wrote a letter to our Minister of Health about our experiences when Bob had his cardiac arrest. It literally cost us THOUSANDS of dollars. Yes, and they say that health care is free in Canada. hmph. Oh no it isn't!! They don't take into account that there is no local health care for small communities so those people have to go to larger facilities elsewhere. There is no compensation for food, travel and accommodation. When you are self-employed as we are and have to shut down your business due to a medical emergency, no one is going to help you. They say "oh, but you can claim those expenses on your income tax and get some of the money back." Well, if, like us, you had TWO medical emergencies in ONE year and had your busines shut down for months on end because of it, it means you have no income to get back at income tax time. So that means that the very poor are out of luck, but if you are rich and have lots of money, you will get money back from your medical emergency. Even though we didn't make any money last year, we still had to pay all the expenses we incurred. No one was handing out money to us. And as soon as you get back on your feet, there is the government at your door with their hands rifling through your almost empty pockets. It makes me sick. Sorry to rant, but I am just so ashamed of the people who "run" our country! Shame on them all!!!
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mrcvs
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# Posted: 10 Mar 2012 15:26
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Hello Hattie,
I am really surprised to hear it is that bad in Canada; I would have thought that it would be the situation if you were in America certainly, but not Canada.
The part about pretty soon there will be only two classes--I think we are pretty much there already. Not much of a middle class left south of the Cnadian border.
My best to you, Hattie. You have been an inspiration!
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Canuck
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2012 11:30
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Hattie,
I am not saying that it is fair that rural canadians have to travel to larger centers for care and that those travel expences for spouses are not covered (if you need an ambulance transfer or even flight from your local hospital to a larger center that is covered by the government). But keep in mind an ICD and installation in the USA will cost about $80,000. Cardiac surgery between $160-320,000. ICU/CCU stay at $12-20,000 per day. This is a far cry from Canada where ICD = $0, ICU = $0, Cardiac surgery = $0 (though not true $0 as we all pay taxes).
Those who are self employed certainly have more challanges which is why it is generally recommended to have good life insurance, disability insurance and critical illness insurance. If your business depends on you working, then getting overhead insurance as well is a good idea too. We insure our houses for fire and theft, those of us who are self employed need to insure our health as well for those items not covered by public insurance.
This is just as some information for the Americans on this list.
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hattie
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2012 12:50
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When I used to work full time I did have disability insurance, etc. (which I paid for out of my own pocket - not through my employer) and of course never needed to use it. It is horrendously expensive and totally out of the question now. We don't make enough money to warrant spending the money on it. As for life insurance - again - horrendously expensive. As you get older the cost of it is prohibitive. We already pay over $3,000 per year just on house and business insurance alone (then there is car insurance, food, bills, etc.), so having disability, critical illness as well as life insurance would leave us with no money to live on. When you make $20,000 per year it just doesn't work.
We pay our bills, pay our taxes and make due with what we have and never ask for a hand-out from anyone. The Canadian government is making the lives of lower income families more miserable each year while they keep getting their raises and complaining because their pensions aren't big enough. When Bob and I were in the regular work force, our employers didn't offer pensions, or medical or dental coverage. Sorry to be a ranting idiot, but it gets frustrating when you hear so many complaining because of their measely $60,000 per year salaries and the full pensions they will receive and expect us to pay more in taxes to "help them out".
Many people move to rural areas in BC because they can't afford to buy a half million dollar condo in the main cities. Then when these lower income folk move to the country, the medical facilities that were once available all of a sudden disappear and these people are forced to drive elsewhere for medical care.
We chose to retire early and we chose to live here. I have no regrets on that at all. I also don't have a problem paying my fair share in taxes, etc. Is our health care cheaper than in the States? Yup. Is it free? Nope. And I don't like our government trying to make it out like it is. Ask anyone who has to go to, say, Royal Columbian Hospital on a daily basis to be with an ill loved one. Ask them how much they are paying just to park their car? Hundreds of dollars!! Sorry but that isn't free. Is it the hundreds of thousands of dollars that US citizens must pay for their health care? Absolutely not, but when you are coming from the lower end of the income scale it might as well be.
Okay, I'll shut up now. *LOL*
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TomChum
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2012 14:57 - Edited by: TomChum
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In America we have an option to change this but democracy doesn't work when the voters are bamboozled by large, very well-funded public relations firms.
Currently Mega corporations are taking the lions share of our health care dollars. As a middleman, they take more than the wages paid to the healthcare workers (doctors, nurses, technicians) of whom are relatively well-paid in comparison to the general populace. Consequently the US Govt. is trying to step in to stop this rape of the citizens. But it's impossible because the Insurance companies can afford massive public relations (with our dollars) and have been very effective in stopping this campaign that would cut their profit out of our healthcare costs.
The lure of government paid healthcare sounds good, and may very well be good for awhile. But at some point it could cost the same, or worse than what we have now. Probably this is the stage you are experiencing in Canada. US citizens don't trust their government, really. But citizens don't comprehend how their distrust enables mega-industies to rape them, and how easily mega-industry can manipulate this distrust.
If the government has the money, possibly it will be wasted back into the economy. But if Mega-Corporations have it, the money certainly is taken out of the economy by the super rich. To give them a little credit, the mega-industries are pumping a lot money to the local economy in the form of advertising campaigns to control legislative actions (= anti-democratic).
Ron Paul says it pretty well, why people don't trust the government. "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." But if you have no government to protect you, you are at the mercy of mega-industry, and this is where we are.
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spicyacres
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2012 15:26 - Edited by: spicyacres
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There is a class of people that produce, add value, and create more than they consume. What they produce is real. They grow food, they harvest resources, they manufacture things, and they perform services in free and voluntary exchange with other citizens.
Then there is a class of people that do exactly the opposite. It is the parasitical class. They skim off a slice off the top in the form of taxes, duties, surcharges, commissions, levies, sales taxes, fees, legal costs, interest, service fees registration fees, dues.... They wear suits and they make the rules, and they enforce those rules with a self-granted monopoly on violence - it's ok for them to kidnap and even to kill people.
A healthy society is one that has the largest proportion of the producer class of citizens, and only as much government as is necessary to arbitrate the rules of civil society.
If you are American, vote Ron Paul for your president. He is your last hope.
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hattie
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2012 16:06
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Quoting: spicyacres A healthy society is one that has the largest proportion of the producer class of citizens, and only as much government as is necessary to arbitrate the rules of civil society.
Amen to that. WELL SAID!!!!!
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CabinBuilder
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2012 16:25 - Edited by: CabinBuilder
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Quoting: spicyacres If you are American, vote {Xxxx Yyyyy} for your president.
Although I agree with pretty much everything said in this thread, I was afraid the discussion will end up here. Talking politics could be an endless and passionate discussion - one which for sure divides people.
Quoting: TomChum there's nothing like politics to ruin a great forum .......... (or a great country for that matter).
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spicyacres
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2012 16:40
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My apologies, I should not have thrown the "Vote for" line in there. 
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