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Infamous Dave
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# Posted: 4 Apr 2017 20:53
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Hi all, this is my first post. I've been lurking and reading for a few weeks though.
There is a 40 acre piece of land in northern Minnesota that my father-in-law has been frequenting since the early 60's. It belongs to his now elderly uncle. I have been going there also on and off since the mid 90's.
The property is surrounded by federal land and a 255 acre lake with no public access. There is a small cabin, I think it is about 16' x 24'. It is constructed of cinder block and is on a floating slab. it has a homemade wood stove and 2 bunk beds.
There is no electricity within miles of the property and no well. We use a generator for power and bring our own water. There are 2 outhouses.
The access to the property is the worst part. It is only a few miles from town as the crow flies but to get there you travel on several miles of poorly maintained forest roads and travel the last 3/4 of a mile or so on what amounts to an OHV trail. I have a dodge Ram 1500 4x4 but If it's too wet, you're not getting there no matter what vehicle you have. Over half of the OHV trail appears to be on federal land so I'm not even sure how much improvement we can do to that road even if we did decide to spend the money but I should be able to find that out if we really get serious about the purchase.
The property nice and the cabin is a good start. Right now it is set up for guys going hunting for a few days but if my wife and I purchased it I would need to make it a bit more comfy for her. I already have the plans to do so. We have been RVers for 20 years so my idea would be to install all of the systems our RV has to make it more comfy. I would add a 12 volt system and a converter that would charge the batteries whenever the generator is on, running water via a holding tank and on demand pump. Maybe even a gas fridge.
My biggest hold up is the access. When it's too wet we probably won't be able to go, If we get a lot of snow we probably won't be able to go. Also, it will be a lot of work for a guy close to 50 years old with 1 prosthetic foot.
Am I nuts for even thinking about doing this?
The land is just so cool and has been in the family for so long to let it go away. My FIL's uncle is getting up there in age and will probably either end up going into a nursing home and losing it to the county, selling it to a stranger or if he dies first and it goes to his kids they will just sell it because none of them have ever enjoyed it.
If anyone has any comments, opinions or advise, I'm all ears. If nothing else, thanks for letting me get this off my chest.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 4 Apr 2017 21:10
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Hey, sounds like you like it. I would buy it. I too have 40 acres and a cabin, love it. Wouldn't change anything.
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ICC
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# Posted: 4 Apr 2017 21:10
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The mentioned federal lands are within the boundary of anational forest? First thing to check is what legal rights of access come with the property with regards to access across those federal lands.
I know of a property near me that is for sale but according to the FS there is no legal right of way across the NF to this tract. Weird, but there it is for some lawyers to sort out. That has brought the value of what I was looking at here down to just about nothing.
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Infamous Dave
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# Posted: 4 Apr 2017 21:17
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Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech Hey, sounds like you like it. I would buy it. I too have 40 acres and a cabin, love it. Wouldn't change anything.
Hi!
Where are you located?
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Infamous Dave
Member
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# Posted: 4 Apr 2017 21:20
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Quoting: ICC The mentioned federal lands are within the boundary of anational forest? First thing to check is what legal rights of access come with the property with regards to access across those federal lands.
Yes, it is within a national forest.
Access rights are definitely something I am concerned about and the first thing I will check into if we decide we may want to submit an offer.
Do you know where I would inquire about such a thing?
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 4 Apr 2017 21:49 - Edited by: bldginsp
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First thing you could do would be to look at the existing recorded title map- which will have on it any legal easements that had been obtained in the past. So the right of access could already exist and would come with the sale. If it doesn't exist, and you ask the Forest Service, you may be tipping them off about a situation they were unaware of. What you DONT want to do is purchase any property where there is a question about access in the hopes that it can be resolved later. Issues like this can go on forever and you could lose.
National forest is there for us all to use including adjacent landowners, but I have never heard or read anything about how the Forest Service handles this sort of thing. They may not want you slopping through there when the soil is soggy. Maybe if you improve the road you will have to let other people use it, which they will. These are just guesses. Let us know what your research turns up.
Edit- found this link regarding easements across public land to private land. It says you have to make an application, which may or may not be approved. It also says only the owner can make the application. So you can't apply until you buy the land, but you have no assurance the application will be granted. It would be wise of the current owner to do all this before selling to be able to tell potential buyers that there is legal access. But I doubt an old man in a nursing home will be up to the task. Tricky situation.
https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5163384.pdf
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Infamous Dave
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# Posted: 4 Apr 2017 23:26
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Quoting: bldginsp First thing you could do would be to look at the existing recorded title map- which will have on it any legal easements that had been obtained in the past. So the right of access could already exist and would come with the sale. If it doesn't exist, and you ask the Forest Service, you may be tipping them off about a situation they were unaware of. What you DONT want to do is purchase any property where there is a question about access in the hopes that it can be resolved later. Issues like this can go on forever and you could lose. National forest is there for us all to use including adjacent landowners, but I have never heard or read anything about how the Forest Service handles this sort of thing. They may not want you slopping through there when the soil is soggy. Maybe if you improve the road you will have to let other people use it, which they will. These are just guesses. Let us know what your research turns up. Edit- found this link regarding easements across public land to private land. It says you have to make an application, which may or may not be approved. It also says only the owner can make the application. So you can't apply until you buy the land, but you have no assurance the application will be granted. It would be wise of the current owner to do all this before selling to be able to tell potential buyers that there is legal access. But I doubt an old man in a nursing home will be up to the task. Tricky situation. https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5163384.pdf
Thank you! That is very helpful information!
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snowho
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# Posted: 4 Apr 2017 23:44
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I have 40 acres surrounded by Forest Service land in the State of Jefferson (Northern California)and have had many discussions with the forest about access rights. If there is no other way to gain access across other private property to the land and already existing public roads provide access, they cannot deny you access. It's held up in the 9th district court in favor of the land owner and it's why the forest service hates private land islands. In the legal world "shall provide" holds a lot of weight.
(a) Reasonable use and enjoyment of land within boundaries of National Forest System
Notwithstanding any other provision of law, and subject to such terms and conditions as the Secretary of Agriculture may prescribe, the Secretary shall provide such access to nonfederally owned land within the boundaries of the National Forest System as the Secretary deems adequate to secure to the owner the reasonable use and enjoyment thereof: Provided, That such owner comply with rules and regulations applicable to ingress and egress to or from the National Forest System.
Adequate access means a route and method of access to non-Federal land that provides for reasonable use and enjoyment of the non-Federal land consistent with similarly situated non-Federal land and that minimizes damage or disturbance to National Forest System lands and resources.
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BadgersHollow
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# Posted: 5 Apr 2017 00:22
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I think they cannot deny you access over established roads, but they can preclude how you use your land. I nearly bought 360 acres but it was land locked by blm. Blm said I could access it for recreation. But not for full time habitation. I think their idea of recreation also had a time constraint, i.e. a few weeks a year.
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snowho
Member
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# Posted: 5 Apr 2017 00:44
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I would like to hear the story behind that and what rights the BLM was holding on determining private land use/zoning. Where was this?
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leonk
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# Posted: 5 Apr 2017 08:12
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you like it, you want it, I assume you can afford it - buy it, you enjoyed it the way it is, not many people have the benefit of 'test driving' the property for years before buying. Then you can improve it as much as you can/wish.
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KelVarnsen
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# Posted: 5 Apr 2017 08:25
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A few notes regarding access.
If you have the means you could always buy a snow machine for winter access. I think I enjoy my cabin in the winter just as much, if not more, than in the summer.
Depending on you vacation/retirement situation you, you may be able to go for longer stretches in the future. Longer stretches means few trips in and out and more time at the cabin.
Health can be a concern in a remote location. Use extra caution when working on projects. There is no hospital around the corner. I work very hard to keep myself fit (eat right, exercise, etc.). I don't always enjoy the discipline, but knowing that I'll be able to enjoy my cabin in good health for a long time is a huge motivation.
If you've got the itch to get a cabin it's only going to get itchier. You might as well scratch it now! Good luck with your decision.
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Littlecooner
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# Posted: 5 Apr 2017 10:29
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This sounds like a dream that many people on this forum would love to be facing. Wow. Go buy this property. There are always details for any legal question. Some basic have already been discussed, but in the US of A, there are laws to provide that you can not be land locked and prevented from accessing your property. The flip side of this coin, you do not want to go to court. That cost money. Then there is the rule of "prescriptive easement". prescriptive means "unwritten". Depending on exact location and case law for the exact time limits, If I or anyone else uses a path, ORV trail, road, etc on a regular basis for the statutory length of time without being contested, you develop a right to use the item for ingress and egress. But again, stay out of the court system. Question is this - so you and people you know have been using the ORV trail for 20-30 years and the Forest Service has not had any problems, why do you expect problems if you become the owner if you do nothing to the existing access?
Yep, it is a gamble, the future is unknown, problems may occur in the future. Tell me one item of property ownership anywhere in the US of A that the same comment would not be appropriate. No one has a crystal ball for the future. Why worry over something that has not happened in the past, just do not change anything and buy your property. An occasional cutting of a small limb growing over the trail with a machete will probably never be addressed by the NFS. Bring in a contractor with a D8 and build a two lane graved road to your new land over the NF, yep, you just created a problem for yourself. Common Sense man, buy the property and just use what is there with minimum 'maintenance' of the status quo on access. I bet you enjoy the cabin for many years to come.
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Rickkrus
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# Posted: 5 Apr 2017 15:06
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If it wont hurt you $$$ jump on it. Access should be in the title.
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bldginsp
Member
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# Posted: 5 Apr 2017 15:46
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Ronald Reagan used to say "Trust- but verify". Verify before you buy.
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naturelover66
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# Posted: 5 Apr 2017 17:29
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I would go for it!! I bought a 16x24 fixer upper on only 5 acres after a near fatal heart attack. Its my happy place to de stress and enjoy beautiful north west michigan.
Its more than a cabin.... Its my project to plan and enjoy every chance im not forced to be at work. ...and im a 50 year old woman. I plan to die there.
If u can do it i would definately go for it
Lisa
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jhp
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# Posted: 5 Apr 2017 19:24
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Hi Dave,
I'd start with the county mapping site if you haven't done it already. Find the property and enable the layers that show you all the road right-of-ways and easements. This will tell you if the road is managed by the county or part of the national forest and managed by the DNR. It really could be either in that part of the world...or you might find out it's a private road/trail.
Assuming it's Cass County click here:
http://cassweb3.co.cass.mn.us/link/jsfe/index.aspx?defaultRole=Public
Just zoom down on the map to find the right spot, or you can search by parcel number or physical address if there is one.
Toggle the all the "road types" by clicking the checkboxes and see who manages what.
If it's managed by the county I would think they'd be more receptive if you were trying to improve the road, especially if you're willing to go jump through hoops with permitting and whatnot.
If it is managed by the DNR I don't think you'll have much of a shot in making any alterations. The DNR historically has been very sensitive to forest road maintenance and proactive in closing roads and trails when conditions deteriorate (for good reason.)
Either way I'd say it's worth a few minutes of investigation and a couple phone calls depending on what you find. My experience has been whoever you get ahold of just explain your question and someone will try and help figure out who you should talk to.
MN DNR Deer River Forestry office: 218-246-8343
Cass County Highway dept (Walker): 1-888-650-7368
As a side note if its within your means and you want to do it, just go for it. Access only six months a year to great country filled with memories is better than renting someone else's dream for a couple weeks a year IMO.
I can tell you from experience great parcels don't last forever unless people just keep buying them and not turning them into overdeveloped 2.5 acre lots.
Best of luck.
-some internet stranger
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Infamous Dave
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# Posted: 5 Apr 2017 23:17
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Thank you very much for the info! I have been to the county GIS map many times but I never played with the check boxes on the left before.
The trail in question does appear on the map when I check the box marked "Forest Service Roads".
Do you know anything specific to this type of road?
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Infamous Dave
Member
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# Posted: 5 Apr 2017 23:20
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jhp, are you in Minnesota?
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jhp
Member
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# Posted: 6 Apr 2017 09:52
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Quoting: Infamous Dave Do you know anything specific to this type of road?
I'm 95% sure then they are maintained by the forestry department of the MN DNR. If they are like the rest of the state forestry roads they are classified minimum maintenance and limited access. For example, most of the state forest access roads are closed now through the early summer to prevent damage due to the frost let-out.
I'm not sure what other rules they may apply to a national forest roads, but I'd say the DNR would be the first place I'd contact.
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ICC
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# Posted: 6 Apr 2017 10:24 - Edited by: ICC
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A road in a National Forest comes under the jurisdiction of the US Forest Service; federal, not any state department. States do have their own forestry departments. Similar work, different masters.
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Infamous Dave
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# Posted: 6 Apr 2017 21:22 - Edited by: Infamous Dave
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Quoting: jhp If they are like the rest of the state forestry roads they are classified minimum maintenance and limited access. For example, most of the state forest access roads are closed now through the early summer to prevent damage due to the frost let-out.
I believe you are correct. I found a forestry map that does show the road in question but shows it ending at the property line. The GIS map on the County's website shows the entire trail across the private land and extending almost a mile beyond the cabin.
The map I found listed most of the roads and a the access limitations you mentioned but it did not list this road specifically. Most of the same type of roads look like they open in May and close in the winter.
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jhp
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# Posted: 7 Apr 2017 13:06
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If the problematic section of the road is on your property and neither the county, state, or fed claim responsibility for maintenance then you can probably improve it. I would want to get 100% confirmation in writing from everyone for starters and understand what permits you would need to take any action.
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Kudzu
Member
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# Posted: 9 Apr 2017 17:31
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buy it
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toyota_mdt_tech
Member
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# Posted: 9 Apr 2017 18:01
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Quoting: KelVarnsen If you've got the itch to get a cabin it's only going to get itchier. You might as well scratch it now! Good luck with your decision.
Well put Kel, if they allowed signature lines in our post, I would add that, giving you credit for it of course. 
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 9 Apr 2017 18:34
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If it's not land locked and....
One thing to check to save a lot of problems is making sure property taxes have been paid on the structure not just the land.
If the taxes were being paid on just the land you could be in for a hefty tax bill with penalties.
If all that is ok than I say go for it. This is something you don't want to regret later on in life.
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Infamous Dave
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# Posted: 15 Apr 2017 16:41
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Thanks to everyone for all the advice!
We are moving forward with the attempted purchase of the land/cabin. There are several things that have to fall into place to allow us to buy it but we are hopeful.
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montecristo
Member
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# Posted: 8 Oct 2018 13:48
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I'm curious on how this all panned out Dave, if you don't mind sharing.
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Infamous Dave
Member
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# Posted: 8 Oct 2018 16:40
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Not very good.
The land is not yet available to be sold so we ended up just parking our trailer at a small rustic campground not too far away. That way we have the benefit of electricity and a few other comforts that civilization provides. We are still close enough to spend time at the property when we want to without all the work of maintaining it.
There's still a remote possibility that we could end up purchasing the land but it seems unlikely at this point.
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Nate R
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# Posted: 8 Oct 2018 19:23
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Thanks for following up, interesting story.
I assume that if you own property that BECOMES enveloped by NFS land, they can't DENY access to the parcel that was there already.... But another story for another time, I guess.
I only saw this thread for the first time now.... I was going to suggest looking into an Argo UTV for access. Land, water, swamp, no problem.
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