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Rumplestiltz
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# Posted: 27 May 2021 00:58
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Hey just found this site while researching building laws and codes for creating in addition to a pre-existing small cabin in the woods near Parry sound (Nobel)
Here’s the situation. My family owns a large property in Nobel with three existing structures on it. One is a large cottage, the second is a small cabin and the third is a garage-like structure.
All three cabins are extremely old and directly on Georgian Bay, steps to a private sand beach. I believe they are built closer to the water than is legal in this day and age, but my understanding is that they have been “grandfathered†in. They all have road access, but share electricity and plumbing/septic/well water.
Recently the whole cottage property has become an asset of my late mother, and the trustees are looking at either selling the whole property- or what I suggested - maybe a portion of the property? Namely the side with the small cabins.
The two small cabins are about 20 ft apart, and about 80-100 ft away from the main large cottage. there is a logical place to “split†the property per say (as I see it) where separate drives break off from the main shared drive.
My main questions are, is this allowed? Obviously there would be some zoning stuff turning one property into two.
would the shared septic and electricity/water/well be an issue?
the two small cabins are not very nice or appealing as is, and would definitely need major renos until they were really something someone would want to buy/tear down/replace. And they are small for a principal residence or cottage.
How big of an “addition†to a pre-existing cabin can you make? Like if I sold both the cabins, and the property they were on, to a close friend, how big of a cottage would he be allowed to renovate a small 10x10 cabin into?
Do I try splitting the land into two? I’m trying to keep the cottage property but it doesn’t seem possible with the estate legal fees and 3 beneficiaries involved. How hard is it to split land, and how long does something like that usually take? I’m not opposed to owning a “share†of the property, with one other party involved, but our 2 “shares†and finances are not enough to outright take ownership and are well short with legal fees etc...
I’m representing myself as I’m not in a financial position to be hiring estate lawyers - so any help would be greatly appreciated...
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 27 May 2021 04:33
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FYI Georgian Bay is PICKY and FINICKY which is largely due to the nearby Citiots abusing freedoms and privileges. There always have to be some to wreck it for the rest...
You will have to find out the specifics of the property title, current zoning and that of the neighbours. There may be covenants or by-laws as well, so check with the township Land Registry Office.
Next meander over to the Building Dept and find out what the requirements are for your land "AS IS". What is the required backset from lake, property sides and roadway. What Septic, Well requirements are in place.
THEN THE TRICKY PART GrandFathered Clauses!
What a Quagmire ! Simply put, Grandfathered clauses can work for an existing homeowner BUT when the land is Surveyed & Severed, the new parcels do not get the full benefit as stuff falls off.
FYI, depending on the Title to the land and its history a Real Estate Lawyer may actually be required to process complex searches etc. You are likely looking at between $1000 to $3000. A survey will also have to be done so figure on a couple of grand for that + fees @ township.
* Things changed in the past few years due to the amalgamations with counties & townships, things were pretty fuddled up for a little while but from all accounts it's pretty well settled.
** FYI ** Ontario's Emporer Ford has slipped a few quickies in with some of his slight of hand trick budgets... There are serious Tax Changes coming to Cottage Country this fall. As well, Hydro One got the okie dokie to Jack rates into space for non-permanent residences & recreational properties. We just got a notice from our Town about the pending changes, some are nuts and being argued against by MANY towns/counties. But HOG-towner's never hear anything outside of Hogtown...
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Brettny
Member
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# Posted: 27 May 2021 05:13
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Call the town
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 27 May 2021 08:46
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Imo you will NEED a lawyer familiar with the locality. If you dont you will make mistakes that equal or exceed the cost of one.
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silverwaterlady
Member
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# Posted: 27 May 2021 09:32 - Edited by: silverwaterlady
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Wow, you need a real estate attorney that is familiar with the area, grandfathering and estate taxes. Also, hopefully this attorney knows a good land surveyor. DO NOT DO THIS YOURSELF. HIRE A PROFESSIONAL. There is a cost to cabin ownership. Legal help or advice is sometimes a requirement.
Our cabin and property will be a tax burden to our children, we fully intended to sell before we die. I’ll already be on my way out because it would kill me to sell.
I’m glad we never got hydro.
It’s difficult to understand the approach towards seasonal residents. The rates are already high. Seasonal’s pay high rates when they are not even at their cabins.
Way to make them sell. Do they think we don’t already pump enough money into their economy.
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jsahara24
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# Posted: 27 May 2021 09:34
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Call a surveyor/engineer in the area and ask for a proposal to complete the plans to break up the parcel into two lots. They will have an understanding of the zoning/subdivision laws and will be able to get you some free advice while they are getting you a quote for the work.
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silverwaterlady
Member
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# Posted: 27 May 2021 09:47 - Edited by: silverwaterlady
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I would not consult a land surveyor until the real estate attorney consultation. That’s the second step as you may not want to take the property on after you talk to the attorney. The first thing he or she is going to advise is a recent appraisal of the cottages and property.
Taxes. Once you find out the cost of estate taxes you might just bow out.
I’ve read article after article about the children or grandchildren of cottage owners in Canada wanting to keep the generational cottage in the family. The appreciation of the cottage has risen drastically. So much so the estate taxes were overwhelming. Because the cottage is considered a second home.
I wish you luck. I hope whatever you want to accomplish happens.
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Brettny
Member
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# Posted: 27 May 2021 11:29
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I wouldnt contant anyone but the town first. No point in calling an attorney if the town wont let you build on.
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 27 May 2021 11:57
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You may be able to learn a lot about the 'requirements' just by visiting the township or county website. (or whatever they are called in Canada).
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Rumplestiltz
Member
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# Posted: 27 May 2021 13:21
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Wow! Amazing responses! Thank you so much for pointing me in the correct direction. I plan on getting an attorney, but only at the point where I truly need one.
I have been sitting in on the “mediation†sessions and honestly- nothing has been done or signed yet that really requires legal advice yet... and it’s been over a year. So at this point I have saved over 5 figures of legal fees (compared to the other parties) by just attending the meetings myself and taking notes... #win
My hope is that my brother and I can retain a portion of the property- either the large cottage or the two small cabins side. But pretty much exactly what “silverwaterlady†said is happening, it’s a generational family cottage that has skyrocketed in value, and the estate taxes and penalties are totally out of hand. I’m afraid the whole property might have to be sold, but ideally my brother and I could keep some of it, via the solution I cooked up (splitting and selling a portion of the land) however as many above stated, Georgian bay is not a fan of land owners from hog town :-P... the cottage also may be a historical site as it was built/owned by the Dion quintuplets lawyer... :-P
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redneckpaul
Member
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# Posted: 27 May 2021 13:40
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Whenever there is a lot of money involved and multiple family members your looking at a bad situation. Money brings out the worst in people. Someone is going to feel like they got ripped off.
This property sound like a "pain in the ass" with all the issues involved.
FWIW....My advice is to sell, split the money between all parties and move to a free state where you actually own the land and can do what you want.
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 27 May 2021 14:13
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I wont do 'partnership deals' with anyone except my wife. And even she has reservations.....
Kidding aside, once you own it you own all of it, the good and the bad. The emotional attachment may make it hard to see the downsides. Consider all the work and expense of making it compliant now, the maintenance and the taxes, etc. divided by the number of times you will use it. Might be that you would be big money ahead to go to the area a few times a year and rent a cottage?
Guess what Im saying is, try to look at this purchase as a business deal as objectively as possible, because that is really what it is. If it doesnt make good 'business' sense then it wont make a good 'investment' but become a liability.
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curious
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# Posted: 27 May 2021 14:42
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Georgian Bay is PICKY and FINICKY which is largely due to the nearby Citiots abusing freedoms and privileges.
Why do we have to stoop to name-calling and stereotyping? One could point to as many rural dwellers as being similarly guilty.
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curious
Member
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# Posted: 27 May 2021 15:15 - Edited by: curious
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edited
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silverwaterlady
Member
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# Posted: 27 May 2021 15:32
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My understanding with a grandfathered property is that you have to maintain the same footprint. Or leave up a corner, or something from the original building.
As mentioned I suppose going to the municipality is a great start. Because the above may not be legal in the area where you have your cabins.
That’s what we did a few decades before we built and being in a unorganized township we were quite surprised at the things we could not do. We just wanted a shed for storage of camping gear. No shed allowed unless we were going to start building the shell.
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jsahara24
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# Posted: 27 May 2021 15:38
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I have no understanding of the tax/inheritance laws in Canada, but they sound pretty bad.
I am looking at it strictly from whether you are able to subdivide the land in order to keep a piece of it. I work in the surveying/engineering field in Pennsylvania. When someone wants to subdivide a piece of property they come to me and ask for a proposal to get them the necessary approvals. Every Township/Borough has their own ordinances that we have to abide by, so having someone local who has worked in your area is critical.
We do some research on the zoning and subdivision laws and advise the client what they are able to do at no cost. We then provide a quote to complete the work for them. If this was in SEPA I would estimate the engineering costs to be 20k + with applications fees. We would need to prove that both lots have an area to install a septic system, actually a primary and replacement area so perc tests would be necessary. A well and electric is assumed, but they would need to be separate or easements drafted accordingly (which is generally frowned upon).
If this were a rural area in PA then we could get through the approvals much easier, location is everything.....
Good luck and I hope you are able to figure out a way to keep a piece of families cabin....
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 27 May 2021 16:32
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Quoting: Rumplestiltz the cottage also may be a historical site as it was built/owned by the Dion quintuplets lawyer... :-P
Ohhh Geez ! don't bring that up to anyone, if you do, it's a rumour you heard, you don't know for sure.
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Houska
Member
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# Posted: 28 May 2021 06:13
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Many families deal with similar issues in Ontario. Capital gains taxes are owed when a property (other than principal residence) is sold, or otherwise changes ownership. And the latter happens also when the owner dies. Prudent older-generation owners will have planned ahead for it (investments set aside, life insurance), but of course this is not always possible. Often the younger generation needs to sell all or part of the property since no one, estate or heirs, can come up with the capital gains $ without that.
If you do want to split the property, here are a couple of pitfalls to watch for.
1. The process of land severance "by consent" (of the township) is only possible for a certain number of splits (3? not sure) of an original property. And previous splits count towards that limit. If you're over that limit, there's a much more complex subdivision process meant for creating whole residential subdivisions and cost-prohibitive for a simple split. So be careful if your property was split off from another, or has had pieces split off in previous decades.
2. New and retained parcels must be consistent with the township's official plan and zoning regulations. While existing structures and footprints may be grandfathered in on an existing lot, to grant "consent" the township will insist that the new and retained lot *can* comply with the plan and zoning. Example ways this can trip you up: a) overall rules on minimum lot size or frontage, b) building setbacks, c) setbacks from waterfront, wetlands, etc., d) rules on septic systems.
To be clear, the application of this is generally not "you have to tear down something grandfathered in", but "if this new lot gets created, will a future owner be able to build and satisfy the rules?". So consents get refused not because there is a bunkie too close to the boundary (for instance), but because there is not space to build a code-compliant cottage including new septic system, for example.
3. Land severance via consent is one of the opportunities the bureaucracy has to apply more recent, constraining rules that have come in place in recent decades. Therefore a consent application will get circulated to the local conservation authority, health unit, etc., and you should expect a severance will only be granted on you in return "voluntarily" putting restrictive covenants on title in the form of a development agreement or something similar.
4. Finally, when a new lot is created, it has to be registered with the Land Registry with an up to date survey of the boundaries (old and new), plus any rights of way for access for both properties. This can trip people up since they expect having to get the dividing line itself surveyed, but may end up having to get not only the dividing line, but also the boundaries of old and new parcels, and perhaps the line of a private access road all the way back to the public road surveyed at their expense.
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Houska
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# Posted: 28 May 2021 06:16 - Edited by: Houska
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I'd strongly suggest you start not with a lawyer, but a local planning consultant. They know the rules, as well as how they are locally interpreted, and how to position things when asking the officials a question. Can't suggest one for your area, but we used one when purchasing in Eastern Ontario and she was very helpful.
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 28 May 2021 08:19
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Boy, is this sounding like a snake-pit 
Fwiw, we lost our built by hand tools in '83-'84 cabin at the family farm when my folks died a few years ago. The reg's wouldnt allow us to keep the cabin if we bought the 5 acres it was on without adding another 33ish acres to make the min 38 for each 'habitable structure'.
At the $4K/ac the farm went for there was No Way. That began our process of mentally/emotionally 'letting it go'; and yes, it is a process. Loss happens to people every day. There is good life on the other side of it.
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