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aleahey
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# Posted: 7 Sep 2021 10:11
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Hi there!
I bought a cabin about 6 months ago and have been slowly renovating it. We have reached the porch!
The porch was covered in an ugly plywood ceiling. I pulled that down and discovered a separate ceiling joist structure and rafter ties. I am wondering if I can safely yank down the ceiling joists and just leave the rafter ties exposed.
The rafter ties are every other rafter, and run the span perpendicular to the ridge beam. They sit on top of the wall plate and are nailed directly to the rafter.
The ceiling joists are toe nailed in to the wall, don't all run the span (though most do), and appear to be "hung" from the ridge beam with some 1x2s for added rigidity. Does that sound like its structural? Reckon I can yank that stuff down and just leave the ties? Thanks!
Pictures worth a thousand words, so an album: https://imgur.com/a/eyi2e32
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 7 Sep 2021 12:03
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To my eye the Rafters & Ties are set "on" the wall structure as expected. The Ceiling joists are nailed to the sides of the 2x8? which looks like a header (2 plates on the top ?) on top of the wall. PIC #2.
?? Is it possible there was a bigger window in place previously, subsequently removed and that smaller one installed ? It is just odd to have a header there... is it the same on the other side ?
It helps to understand the evolution of a structure before modifying it, the results otherwise could be quite unpleasant and even unexpected. I would say, that it is likely prudent to remove the wall paneling and have a look at the actual structure underneath. It MAY be possible the ceiling joists are also keeping the walls together as a supplemental post renovation "fix". NEVER Underestimate the possibilities of what others could have done.
The Roof looks good and solid, with ties just under the Ridge Board would lock it pretty well.
Steve
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aleahey
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# Posted: 7 Sep 2021 12:15
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Thanks Steve!
I don't think there was a bigger window, this seems to be an added-on porch. The place was built in 1969 and I think the porch dates to the 1970s.
The ceiling joists are indeed nailed to the sides of the 2x8 with the two plates on top. It is the same on both sides.
Just to give you context of what you're looking at, here is an exterior shot of the porch. New metal roof.
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Brettny
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# Posted: 7 Sep 2021 14:35
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Those ceiling joists look like they could also be holding the walls from bowing out. I wouldnt remove them. But that dosnt mean you cant just paint everything and leave it open.
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 7 Sep 2021 15:20
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Quoting: aleahey The rafter ties are every other rafter, and run the span perpendicular to the ridge beam.
That is not a ridge beam. It is a ridge board. Board vs Beam makes a big difference in what they are designed to do. A true beam would have to be much larger, taller and wider. Plus it would need to have more than a single skinny 2xsomething in the wall at each end of the beam to support 50% of the total weight of the roof.
That is a ridge board which is basically just a nailer to make it easier to connect the upper end of one rafter to its mate. It is not really a structural member. A 1x could have been used in its place. It also keeps the rafter pairs aligned during construction.
The rafter ties should be one piece from one rafter tail to the other side. If rafter ties are not one continuous length they can be two pieces with a splice, but the splice must be supported by a wall below.
The 2x2 vertical members would have been placed there to reduce the amount the ceiling joists might sag over that span with the weight of the old ceiling in place. They would not be a significant factor in loading the ridge, IMO.
It is, shall we say, odd to have rafter ties and then a separate set of ceiling joists a short distance below. The rafter ties should be the member that keeps the walls aligned. They are usually also used to install a ceiling. IF all is as it seems to be when looking at the pictures from afar it would seem safe to remove the ceiling joists.
....Just for general FYI... The last picture illustrates a no-no. Notice the red-lettered 2x4 that is laid on its side, flat. The lettering indicates it was graded as a stud. That means the lumber grader saw something in that original length that weakened it against bending stress, so it was graded to be a stud. In broad terms, a stud should never be used flat or on edge to support a load. The way it is used in the picture is probably no big deal. I mention this only because people have used stud grade lumber as a joist and that can lead to problems later. It can also lead to having an inspector red tag the work.
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aleahey
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# Posted: 7 Sep 2021 15:42
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This is helpful, thank you so much.
I follow what you're saying for the most part. Is it normal for the rafter ties to be rather wobbly? The two higher ties, above the ceiling joists, can kind of be rocked back and forth almost like a guitar string. Not to say they aren't secured to the rafter well, just over that long of a span there is some movement in the center.
The ceiling joist structure is just toe nailed in to the wall plate, which is what made me think it isn't doing anything and might be causing more harm than good. I'm fine with leaving the rafter ties in place, but would love to remove all this ugly ceiling joist system. It seems like a later addition, at any rate.
The rafter ties are one continuous piece (each), but the ceiling joists are not. There is some kind of funky piecing together going on in the center around where they hung a light.
Would you be of the opinion everything save for those ties can go? I'm thinking of the general ceiling joist system as well as the (similarly red stamped) giant X visible in the 4th image and the vertical hanger 1x bits that as you say are to prevent the ceiling joist system from sagging.
I think I will go with your impressions from afar.
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 7 Sep 2021 17:39
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Quoting: aleahey Is it normal for the rafter ties to be rather wobbly? The two higher ties, above the ceiling joists, can kind of be rocked back and forth almost like a guitar string.
As long as the rafter tie ends are securely nailed to the rafters is does not matter to the structure if a rafter tie can be "plucked" like an instrument string. The connections between rafter and tie must be done right and be tight. Table R802.5.2 in the IRC specifies the number of 16D common nails that should be used at each rafter tie end connection. Link It depends on rafter pitch, snow load, rafter spacing, wood species and grade, and total roof span. Other tables in chapter 8 deal with the lumber sizing.
The giant (wood 2x) X you mention is the type of bracing that is installed while the roof is being framed; to hold rafters in place and not flop over. Once the sheathing is installed they are pretty much superfluous. They are generally left in place as it is too much bother to then try to remove them. You could remove them. Free wood.
As long as you are leaving the rafter ties in place it would appear that the non continuous ceiling joists and the short vertical sticks can be removed.
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Brettny
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# Posted: 7 Sep 2021 20:47
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I took a look at the picture again and you can remove ths short pieces between the ceiling joists. I wouldnt remove the diagonal braces though.
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aleahey
Member
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# Posted: 7 Sep 2021 21:10
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Sorry which diagonal pieces do you mean? I getcha w/r/t the in-between short pieces.
I would like to remove the entirety of the lower ceiling joist structure. You reckon that’s unwise?
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Brettny
Member
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# Posted: 8 Sep 2021 15:19
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The only two diagonal braces that are above the ceiling rafters. No I would remove the ceiling rafters as there prob acting like wall ties and needed.
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