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Small Cabin Forum / General Forum / Unobtanium - Oil vs Solar vs Wind
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paulz
Member
# Posted: 12 Nov 2021 17:42
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Friend sent me this video in an email, don't know how to share that but found it online. It's on Facebook but I didn't have to sign in to Facebook to watch it. Pretty interesting, if it's all true.

College professor talking the downside to solar and wind.

https://www.facebook.com/dalegasandoil/videos/unobtanium/308699784174165/

gcrank1
Member
# Posted: 12 Nov 2021 18:25
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I havent watched it yet but we have been having these type conversations locally since our power company is going the whole hog on 'green'.
I am reminded of the line so often used in treaties with the American Indians:
Ie, This treaty will last,
"...Until the sun dont shine and the wind dont blow..."
Likewise with our power.

travellerw
Member
# Posted: 12 Nov 2021 19:01
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Wow.. A pure propaganda piece put out by an O&G corporation.

I'm not even going to bother wasting my time and debunking much of what he said (some is true for sure), because that is what these films are designed to do. Waste time, muddy the waters and eek more years our of O&G revenues. His claims are easily debunked by some quick googling.

One thought I will leave here.. Solar panels are technically %90 recyclable. Glass (yup), Aluminum (yup), Silicone (yup), Copper (yup).. The %10 that is not recyclable is the fossil fuel plastics used.

The second thought I will leave here, is that no one really knows the life of a solar panel. I had 15 year old Shell solar panels that still produced OVER their rated capacity on most days. They even had the brown spots of death, yet still produced.

Its a crazy new world with misinformation on both sides..

ICC
Member
# Posted: 12 Nov 2021 19:28
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The name "PragerU" could lead a viewer to think it was a university. It is not. PragerU is a non-profit media company. They have been around for 10+ years and have produced a plethora of videos that make dubious claims. (my choice of words; trying to be nice....)


Oh, and the first thing I noticed is that the energy story is from an oil and gas company. Not too hard to guess where they are positioned with the subjects of solar and wind.

The speaker, Mark MIlls, is associated with nuclear and fossil fuel extraction copanies.

paulz
Member
# Posted: 13 Nov 2021 09:07
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Pretty one side alright. Did bring up some things I've taken for granted though, as I pat myself on the back for my solar powered cabin.

He made a big deal about mining for Li battery materials, which got me wondering about recyclability. Apparently this is somewhat new, and costly process.

Nobadays
Member
# Posted: 13 Nov 2021 10:03
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Quoting: ruralboy
make you rethink where all these crashed/old cars are going


Chevy Volt modules power my cabin and will likely for years to come.... LakesideOntario as well, maybe other on here.

But agree, 10-20% recycling of a hard to obtain element is shameful.

travellerw
Member
# Posted: 13 Nov 2021 10:45
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Li battery recycling in the past was poor as there was no profit and limited feed input. As the numbers of batteries have increased and the demand has increased there have been big gains. Here is one example of a company that started this year. %95 recovery rate of all the rare earth metals.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/lithiumion-battery-recycling-finally-takes-off-in-north-ame rica-and-europe

gcrank1
Member
# Posted: 13 Nov 2021 11:05
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If I could take a a 'tote' full of salt water to make a huge battery to power my cabin Id be on it in a heartbeat.
Not that Im anti-chemisty, Im just anti-complicated/expensive chemistry. Until we have a KISS battery I cant see a real, affordable energy revolution.

toyota_mdt_tech
Member
# Posted: 13 Nov 2021 12:15
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Wind farms also produce lots of waste. Do a search how the old blades are disposed off.

Oil will be around for many years, solar, wind is fine for supplemental, but never work for a total replacement.

gcrank1
Member
# Posted: 13 Nov 2021 13:18 - Edited by: gcrank1
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Sadly, here they are moving to shutter one of the cleanest coal fired elec gen plants just up the road from us. This before the 'solar fields' they have in the works are up and running. My understanding is it takes 30 some odd acres of array to power an average 2000 homes. We have lots more than that in this county and Lots of business and industry that uses Waayyy more. A few miles away is the wind farm. In all the years that has been in trials it has not added a lot to the grid. And it has killed a lot of birds hoping to pass through.
In all of this, which I follow because it is happening 'in our back yard' has been NO mention of 'storage' for when the sun dont shine and the wind dont blow. I find that conspicuous by its absence. Ime with solar at the cabin, without 'storage' a system is inadequate. Are they going to require all of us get a 'powerwall' and a residential upgrade? At what price? Along with the huge increase in elec per KW cost? Ya, you betcha!
But what do I know

travellerw
Member
# Posted: 13 Nov 2021 19:30
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Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech

Wind farms also produce lots of waste. Do a search how the old blades are disposed off.


I encourage you to google that.. Wind farm waste accounts for 0.02% of waste per year. Plus its the some of the least polluting waste as it leaches nothing. There is now a company company in California that has a new recycling process. They are claiming %80 recovery to useful materials (third party verified). They are ramping up this year to full production. The best part is the affects its had on other industries (like boats that have NEVER been recycled).

If you have ever worked in the oilfield, the waste is shocking. Plus much of that waste needs special handling as you can't just bury contaminated stuff. Just the amount of rags/wipes waste is amazing. You can just dump diluent polluted rags in a landfill. You should Google videos of pipeline pigging. It will be eye opening.

However I will agree that batteries cannot bridge the gaps if the sun doesn't shine, or the wind doesn't blow. There are some great innovations here though. Natural gas power plants have come leaps and bounds and will have a major part. Even better, Hydrogen from natural gas, where the other components are pumped back into the holes the gas comes from.

I'm not sure why people think this is a fight to eliminate all fossil fuels.. This is a fight to reduce their use by orders of magnitude! and the fight is already over. The reduction has begun and will just accelerate every year!

spencerin
Member
# Posted: 14 Nov 2021 10:43 - Edited by: spencerin
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Obviously a very passionate topic on both sides.....

The truth is somewhere in the middle. Power generation will never be 100% renewable because it can't be. But, if you wanted to be as close as possible to 100% non-fossil fuel, then nuclear has to come into the picture in a big way.

paulz
Member
# Posted: 14 Nov 2021 13:58
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Did a little reading on alternative energy storage. I was thinking of just enough to have available until the sun comes up.

Some interesting ideas, some in use, but probably not feasible for cabin.

https://www.mpoweruk.com/alternatives.htm

Ontario lakeside
Member
# Posted: 14 Nov 2021 17:56
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Brought to you by your local oil company! Very obviously propaganda, even if you agree with some of his points its clearly very biased. As for recycling EV batteries try buying one from a salvage yard, the prices will shock you! (pun intended)

spencerin
Member
# Posted: 14 Nov 2021 19:50
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Biased? Maybe. But, is it true? Can anyone point to other videos and materials to provide a different perspective?

gcrank1
Member
# Posted: 14 Nov 2021 20:25 - Edited by: gcrank1
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Retired and soon 69 the way inflation has cut my life savings in half (again!) and talk of energy cost doubling I am not feeling so good about my future prospects.
I dont think I can afford the next ten years

Steve_S
Member
# Posted: 15 Nov 2021 08:53
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I won't get into any babble about what is True & False and where Hopium falls into place for different people.

Recycling Tech is BOOMING on all areas of the Renewable Energy sector. Battery Recycling (Lithium based) is taking off and BTW, the Factories going up in US & EU also have recycling built-in ! Wee detail many miss. LiCycle and others have been getting contracts DAILY (North American BTW). Before anyone goes off on a tangent GOOGLE IT FIRST ! see Lithium Recycling in "news" within 12 Months.

Unobtainium !
I've actually had people say to me (recently) that there are only Tesla Powerwalls and a FEW others but all Knockoff or ... you all know...
Well LOOK HERE and see what Commercial Power-Bank offerings are out there ! and look at the $$$ Values too ! SURPRISE ! who will spot that gotcha ? (hint compare to US $ with local supply, see what duties & tarrifs do to your pocket)
https://www.cleanenergyreviews.info/battery-storage-comparison-chart

Imagine that, the Lagtard Nation has better pricing !
Well Gosh Darn... and WHO pockets the duties & tarrifs, the GOV not you, not the business that sold you product X but the GOV... They are taxing YOU as it's all just passed down to the end buyer... Even more insulting is if you have to pay a Sales Tax above & Beyond that rolled up price, so taxes ON TOP of Extra Duties/Tarriffs/Fees - Nothing like Taxing Taxes for Govern-Mental Profiteering !

Nobadays
Member
# Posted: 15 Nov 2021 10:42
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Steve.... if it helps at all it seems our present administration is trying to increase our taxes, and I'm sure tariffs will rise as well.... so if we get our taxes and tariffs as high as your country, will we no longer be a "Lagtard Nation?"

Asking for a friend....

Steve_S
Member
# Posted: 15 Nov 2021 13:26
Reply 


I am Canadian and while our Gov talks a talk it lies with every breath and does the opposite of what it mouthes.
Blue & Grey Hydrogen ! WEE,
Small Nuke Reactors WEE, (nowhere to put ANY Nuke waste which is pilling up but let's make more)
Keep pumping billions in Oil/Gas subsidies WEE, Keeping the coal dream in the shadows WEE,
Give SHELL 4 Billion to put up a FEW EV Chargers ! WEE ---> On Top of the Billions in Subsidies they get already ! pure genius....

Duties & tariffs are strictly a government Cash Grab the government does at the border. That get's added onto the Retail Sale Price (invisibly) and if you live in a region with Sales Tax, that get's plopped on top. Of course Gov's like that because the price is inflated by Duties etc and that ups the Sales Tax intake....

To be perfectly clear. No Government collecting these Duties, Tariffs, Levies & Taxes ever gives it to a Company, Individual or Group, it goes into the General Collection Bucket. This is why there is ZERO TRANSPARENCY ! Joe & Jane Public would Explode !

gcrank1
Member
# Posted: 15 Nov 2021 13:49
Reply 


The collective 'we' are treated as if we are stupid.
Pretty much because most are and the rest of us end up thrusting at windmills/preaching to the choir.
No surprise, it has always been like this and always will. The only way 'to pay the bills' is to have the little guys pay because there are so many more of 'us'.
Things going on now remind me of the book 'Atlas Shrugged'.

paulz
Member
# Posted: 14 Dec 2021 03:29 - Edited by: paulz
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Article on soaring lithium prices

https://www.wsj.com/articles/lithium-prices-soar-turbocharged-by-electric-vehicle-dem and-and-scant-supply-11639334956

gcrank1
Member
# Posted: 14 Dec 2021 10:25
Reply 


Sadly, I cant read it without subscribing
I, like many, was hoping for lfp bats to settle out to a more affordable level.
Now we have runaway inflation/currency devaluation so it takes more 'dollars' to buy most anything. It doesnt seem to be slowing.....buy now or wait for a day that never can come?
And the article header alludes to spiraling lith costs with just the supply/demand thing.

paulz
Member
# Posted: 14 Dec 2021 10:44 - Edited by: paulz
Reply 


Hmm, that's odd, I was able to read it last night without subscribing but now I can't. Fortunately I copied the text then. I thinks it's an AP article, probably get it somewhere else, but here's the gist. Might be a little garbled.


Lithium prices are rising at their fastest pace in years, setting off a race to secure supplies and fueling worries about long-term shortages of a vital ingredient in the rechargeable batteries that power everything from electric vehicles to smartphones.
An index of lithium prices from research firm and price provider Benchmark Mineral Intelligence doubled between May and November and is up some 240% for the year. The index is at its highest level in data going back five years.
Driving the run up are bets on continued scarcity. Demand is multiplying as Tesla Inc. and other auto makers ramp up sales of electric vehicles. Supply, meanwhile, has been constrained by limited investment in new projects following a recent bear market and supply-chain bottlenecks. Producers often face environmental opposition and cumbersome permitting processes when trying to extract the silvery-white metal.
While there is plenty of lithium in the world, converting it into battery-grade chemicals is a long, expensive ordeal. With traders and corporate buyers riding momentum, prices are prone to big moves in both directions.
“It’s like being in a hot real-estate market,” said Jon Evans, CEO of Lithium Americas Corp. , a startup working to produce lithium in Nevada that also co-owns a project in Argentina with a Chinese partner. “There’s a mad scramble.”
Lithium Americas hasn’t produced any lithium but has a market value of roughly $4 billion after a recent share-price surge.
The rally is stoking fears about battery manufacturers and auto makers obtaining enough material to meet electric-vehicle demand. Many companies also are coping with higher prices for other raw materials and key parts such as computer chips.
Even though commodities are a tiny part of total vehicle cost, they could contribute to rising average prices for lithium-ion battery packs, according to research firm BloombergNEF. That would be the first such increase in at least a decade. Years of tumbling battery costs have made electric vehicles more competitive with gasoline powered cars.

The rally in lithium prices is stoking fears about battery manufacturers and auto makers obtaining enough material to meet electric-vehicle demand.
PHOTO: AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE/GETTY IMAGES
High lithium prices are a boon for the small group of companies including Albemarle Corp. that dominate global supply and have reported resurgent sales recently.
Many others are rushing to tap into the excitement, sparking share-price gains that mirror the climb in shares of Tesla and electric-vehicle stocks. The Global X Lithium & Battery Tech ETF has risen more than 40% this year, while shares of some lithium producers are up about 70% or more.
Shares of lithium companies are the main avenue for investors to wager on prices because there is no active futures market like there is for more heavily traded commodities such as oil.
Most lithium comes from countries such as Australia and Chile. There are two main sources: a salty brine that is pumped out of the ground and spodumene, a mineral contained in hard rocks. After extraction, chemical processes are used to make battery-grade lithium compounds.
China is the world leader in lithium chemical processing and battery production, a concern for U.S. policy makers and companies hoping to create a domestic supply chain but struggling to compete with China’s low costs and industry expertise.
Environmental opposition and permitting delays also are obstacles for companies, including Lithium Americas in Nevada and Piedmont Lithium Inc., a North Carolina-based producer. Environmental fears are limiting supply in commodities from oil to copper, helping buoy prices across the board.

Some lithium is sourced from spodumene, a mineral contained in hard rocks.
PHOTO: PHOTO: CLARK HODGIN FOR THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
The challenge for lithium producers is that it takes many years and heavy investment to get projects off the ground, creating mismatches between quickly growing supply and demand. Prices soared in 2017 and 2018, only to fall rapidly after companies ramped up output.
Some analysts expect a similar pattern to play out this time, but only if producers increase capacity and sentiment cools off.
“There’s enough lithium out there. The issue is the investment required to get there,” said Eric Norris, president of Albemarle’s lithium unit, on the company’s earnings call last month.
Deal making in the sector is on the rise. Koch Strategic Platforms, part of billionaire Charles Koch’s conglomerate Koch Industries Inc., earlier this month invested $100 million in Standard Lithium Ltd. , a company that is working with a German firm to produce lithium chemicals in Arkansas. Koch Strategic Platforms has made several similar investments in startups and the battery supply chain.
In November, Mr. Evans’s company Lithium Americas outbid Chinese battery maker Contemporary Amperex Technology Co. —known as CATL—to reach a deal to acquire an Argentina-focused lithium producer for about $400 million.

Rio Tinto’s plan to mine lithium in Serbia has run up against environmental protesters there.
PHOTO: PHOTO: OLIVER BUNIC/AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE/GETTY IMAGES
Mining giant Rio Tinto PLC this summer pledged more than $2 billion to develop a lithium project in Serbia, but thousands of protesters in the European nation recently took to the streets to oppose the government potentially allowing the company’s extraction efforts that could harm the environment.
It was the latest example of environmental opposition possibly delaying permitting and production of a commodity that could help decarbonize the economy, analysts said.
“We have to strike a balance between overall global environmental benefits and local impacts,” a Rio Tinto spokesman said in a statement. “We will not trade one over the other.”
Some analysts see the flood of money piling into the sector eventually pushing supply up and cooling the rally. Citigroup analysts project demand will outpace supply this year and next year before production tops consumption through 2025.
SHARE YOUR THOUGHTS
What impact might a surge in lithium prices have on the electric-vehicle market?
But red-hot sentiment could still fuel price gains well into next year, some analysts say.
“It’s more about the perceptions that market players have, not the real shortages of the material,” said Lukasz Bednarski, principal research analyst at IHS Markit focused on lithium. He expects a price correction at some point next year.

Steve_S
Member
# Posted: 14 Dec 2021 11:11 - Edited by: Steve_S
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Wall Street Journal, The WSJ is a division of Dow Jones, which is currently owned by Rupert Murdoch's News Corp.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assets_owned_by_News_Corp

Consider that LONG List and what it really means and think of their "slant".

PS, Koch Industries, Primary Fossil Resource Group, funders of FUD for 2 decades and reputed anti RE/EV and Future tech.

paulz
Member
# Posted: 14 Dec 2021 11:18
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Search 'Soaring Lithium Prices', you'll see same or similar articles all the way down the page. Maybe they are all connected to oil companies, I wouldn't know.

snobdds
Member
# Posted: 14 Dec 2021 14:14
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In Wyoming, we have cheap energy. Most is supplied from our vast reserves of coal. This has created a data center boom in the past 5 years. Major companies from Amazon, Microsoft, Apple, Walmart, Lowes, and even super computers have made Wyoming their home for vast server farms. The temperature is colder which means lower cooling expenses, and we have access to high speed data lines.

Our entire data infrastructure is right now being ran on Coal. Big companies like to talk up green initiatives, but when it comes down to brass tax...fossil fuels are still what powers the US.

These companies are paying for tons of lobbyist to keep the cheap power coming. So when I see Amazon running a commercial saying they will be 100% green in 5 years, I just laugh.

Green energy is a shell game, it hits the feelz for some people.

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