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WILL1E
Moderator
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2021 08:21 - Edited by: WILL1E
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Thought i'd start a new thread with these questions I have about wiring my existing panel to my new sub panel in the cabin.
At my existing panel, I need to connect all 4 leads that run to the cabin. This is the wire i bought (2-2-2-4). Here is the existing panel, note this was an in progress photo so the bond screw wasn't installed then, but it is now.
1. So ill hook the ground wire to the ground bar on the right. What if that wire i have doesn't fit into those ground terminals, is there an add on piece I need to get?
2. Neutral i suspect can go into the large lug next to where the incoming neutral is since i think it will be to large for the neutral bar terminals?
3. I have a 100 amp breaker to feed the cabin, both hots will get screwed into the breaker
Here is a photo of the new sub panel in the cabin.
Since this panel is a plug on neutral, i assume a need a separate ground bar mounted inside the panel. Right?
4. The bare copper wire coming into this panel from my newly installed ground rods will go to one of the terminals on the separate ground bar.
5. The ground wire running to my existing panel will get screwed to the large terminal on the separate ground bar.
6. Neutral running to existing panel will go to large terminal on the right side of the panel next to the bond screw?
7. Both hots will get screwed into the 100amp breaker in this panel.
8. I will NOT screw in the bond screw on this panel, correct?
Anything else i missed?
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WILL1E
Moderator
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2021 08:32 - Edited by: WILL1E
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I suspect something like this is my solution to items # 1?
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Tim_Ohio
Member
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2021 12:29
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Will1E,
I might be wrong, but based on what I see, your plug on neutral panel is intended to be a main. It looks to me like the neutral and ground are already tied together. Did this panel come with a bonding screw?
I'm guessing it didn't. Am I wrong. If it did not come with the bonding screw, that confirms the neutral and ground are already bonded together. If so, you will have to buy a small ground bar that screws into the box on one side or the other. Then, your ground wires will all connect to it and it will then be grounding the box, separate from the neutral, which will be connected to the neutral bar
that seems to be connected from one side to the other.
Others, please chime in to correct me if I'm wrong.
This is the first time I've seen the plug on neutral type of panel.
Tim
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WILL1E
Moderator
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2021 13:01
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Tim_Ohio It did come with a bond screw and it's on the right side of the panel by the large sticker. The sticker reads " BONDING SCREW When required to bond ground and neutral, thread screw into case with 40 in-lbs of torque".
I did not screw this in per comments in my other thread. So i assume the bar on the right side of this panel could be used as ground.
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Tim_Ohio
Member
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2021 14:06
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I'm going to assume the two neutral bars that run vertically on each side are connected to each other. I cannot see it, though. They would be isolated from the
metal box. If you mount a separate bus bar on the metal box that will accommodate the grounds, it will be isolated from the neutral, but will be grounding the metal box by contact from the mounting screws. So, the only way they would be joined is if you install the bonding screw. I'm thinking all grounds would go to that separate new bar. All neutrals would go to the two vertical bus bars connected to the neutral that your plug-on-neutral breakers will make contact with when installed.
Tim
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WILL1E
Moderator
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2021 15:20
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I think you are right that both bars in that photo are neutral based on this photo i took of the sticker inside the new panel:
Below the illustration at the top of the photo it says "ground bar (when installed)" Good thing i bought a ground bar for the heck of it when i bought the panel!
So i guess the neutral at the new panel will go to the large terminal next to the ground screw in my photo. Then the ground wire going to the existing panel will go to the large terminal on the seperate bus bar i bought and the bare copper wire from the ground rods will go into one of the small terminals on the seperate bus bar. 2 hots will go into the panels 100amp breaker.
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Brettny
Member
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2021 16:56
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That all sounds correct to me. And yes you will need a special lug to connect #2 wire to the neutral or ground bar in each pannel.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Power-Mark-Plus-Grounding-Lug-for-Load-Centers-TGL20CP /100153918
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toyota_mdt_tech
Member
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# Posted: 9 Dec 2021 20:55 - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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Both those bars are neutral, you will need to add a separate ground one and remove the green bonding screw. Set screw in bottom of the panel, tape it in place in case this changes.
The ground bars can be added, they key into existing holes and nubs on metal chassis.
Lowes Ground barsURL
Ground bar with lug for larger wireURL
You can add one with large lug on one side, then a regular one on the other side of panel so your grounds with have a spot close to each breaker and neutral, just tie the 2 bars together with a wire large enough. I always used the solid copper, but probably overkill.
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WILL1E
Moderator
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# Posted: 4 Jan 2022 12:46
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Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech You can add one with large lug on one side, then a regular one on the other side of panel so your grounds with have a spot close to each breaker and neutral, just tie the 2 bars together with a wire large enough. I always used the solid copper, but probably overkill.
What size wire do you suggest? I have plenty of that braided stuff left that i ran from this panel to the ground rods...could i use that?
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Brettny
Member
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# Posted: 4 Jan 2022 14:38
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You dont tie the neutral to the ground on a sub pannel. How its setup in this pic looks fine from what I can tell.
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Tim_Ohio
Member
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# Posted: 4 Jan 2022 14:55
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I don't see any reason you cannot use the braided for your ground from the ground bar to the ground rods, but I'm not sure of code on that. Typically, braided wire is reserved for use if the equipment it energizes will vibrate. Braided wire does not break easily if it is used on something that might cause fatigue from constant vibration. Number 4 wire should be fine for the grounding the panel to the rods and it should run from the panel to one rod, then to the second without any break in it. At least that's the way I've always seen it done.
I notice you are using metal clamps in the knockouts of the panel. Be sure not to over tighten them. People get carried away with this and end up tearing the insulation on the wire all the way down to the copper and then have a short. This is very important.
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Tim_Ohio
Member
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# Posted: 4 Jan 2022 15:12
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I just looked it up, and it says #8 wire is suitable for a 100 amp service ground.
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WILL1E
Moderator
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# Posted: 4 Jan 2022 15:37
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To clarify, i'm using #6 braided wire from both of my ground rods to the ground bar in the panel.
What i was asking is if i want to add a second ground bar in my panel so i have one on both sides of it, if i could use that same #6 braided wire?
Quoting: Tim_Ohio I just looked it up, and it says #8 wire is suitable for a 100 amp service ground.
Does it say if it has to be solid vs. braided?
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Tim_Ohio
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# Posted: 4 Jan 2022 15:48
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Willie,
That is not necessary. The ground bar that is already in your panel is screwed into the back of the panel and is making a connection to the metal panel. Anything you screw into on the other side, such as an additional bar will be connected via the metal panel enclosure.
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 4 Jan 2022 16:50
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Quoting: WILL1E Does it say if it has to be solid vs. braided?
Just FYI, the correct term is stranded, not braided.
There is wire that is actually braided. It is used in grounding lightning arresting equipment.
For our electrical systems we use stranded or solid wire. Either is okay depending on what the terminal we are connecting it to is certified for. Issues can arise with some finely stranded wire such as used in heavy cables like welding cable. As long as we are talking about the wires sold in the usual electrical dept. either is usable. Grounds also must be bare or green insulated, no other color.
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WILL1E
Moderator
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# Posted: 5 Jan 2022 07:51
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Thanks guys. Sorry about the terminology mixup, i knew that but yesterday was just one of those days!
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toyota_mdt_tech
Member
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# Posted: 5 Jan 2022 08:24
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Quoting: WILL1E What size wire do you suggest? I have plenty of that braided stuff left that i ran from this panel to the ground rods...could i use that?
I'd make it the same size you have of the green wire hooking to the RH ground bar now.
Also, I like the wide sweep of your 2 line wires, but if it was me, I would of swept the neutral wide and around the left side, up over and across the top to the RH side and down, this takes the kink out and give you extra wire in panel if you even needed it for whatever reason. Tidys it up and look sanitary. You have done nice bends on your other stuff too. Look pretty good.
You may, or may not need the extra ground bar, but if you do, you got it covered. Nice to see bond screw kept in bottom of panel too. 
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WILL1E
Moderator
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# Posted: 5 Jan 2022 12:39
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Thanks for the compliments toyota_mdt_tech. Only reason i didn't run the wires as you said was that i was trying to keep all the home runs that went to the left side of the cabin on the left side of the panel and all the ones that will eventually go to the right will come in the right side. Wish i would have thought about keeping extra wire in the panel like you mentioned though.
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