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gcrank1
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# Posted: 28 Feb 2022 21:51 - Edited by: gcrank1
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Ive got this China-made inverter.......
I know, sounds like I need a 'recovery group'.
1k/2k so called 'pure sine wave' branded with a stick-on label as Accurate Tools AT1000P that has not been heavily loaded by me. It came with the cabin solar system (prev owner died so no asking questions).
I had it working briefly 2 yrs ago but with the failing bat-bank as they died and the available c-rate for discharge fell off it stopped working, or so I thought.
With the new LFP and high discharge capability I hooked it up here at home, looked to be a go.
We got to the cabin today. I carried the 100ah bat and inverter in, hooked em up and with great expectations turned on one of my 9w led bulbs. It flickered; hmm never did that before. Turned on another one, same thing. Then my radio, a decent 1980s? GE typical 'box' am/fm; it was normal then Pop, something inside and dead. Tried the ceiling fan, it just growled, like when I had previously tried to run it on a msw inverter.
So I pulled off the big inverter and hooked up the one Ive been using for over a year, a BESTEK 300w psw, and the lights dont flicker and the ceiling fan runs fine.
Radio is dead on ac....looks like it blew something in the step down from 120vac to the 6xC cells/9vdc; it runs on the bats now though.
Anybody got inverter woes similar?
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travellerw
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# Posted: 28 Feb 2022 22:21
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Ahh.. Cheap Chinese inverters.. Many are great while they are working.. but cheap components means they have a pretty short life. The capacitors used are very low quality and lose their ratings quickly. This puts strain on the other components.
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 28 Feb 2022 22:46
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Trav, do you have a recommendation for a 12v psw 750- 1kW inverter?
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travellerw
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# Posted: 28 Feb 2022 23:08
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Your going to choke on the price of them but, here are a few I recommend.
Victron
Samlex
Mastervolt
AIMS
Xantrex (not as good as they used to be)
They should all last you many many years.
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 28 Feb 2022 23:15
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How about Go Power?
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travellerw
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# Posted: 28 Feb 2022 23:44
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I think they are "ok".. I actually have a Go Power in my garage that needs repair. It was massively abused in the oilfield, so I don't blame it for failing.
I think you can get a Victron of Samlex for a very similar price though. I'm more familiar with those 2 brands so would personally be more comfortable with them personally.
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Brettny
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# Posted: 1 Mar 2022 04:51
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My xantrax has been good. It's a freedom 1200. Bought it off Ebay for $100 due to a few missing covers. It was never used.
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paulz
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# Posted: 1 Mar 2022 09:08
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Quoting: travellerw Cheap Chinese inverters.
CCIs, been through a couple used ones. I now have a new CCI I bought on Ebay, 2500W, PSW, $200. But, I added the 3 year 'Buyer Protection Plan' for an extra $16, first time I've ever done that.
So far so good. It has a couple of features my other CCIs lacked. A display that shows input/output volts/watts. The power switch is on a wired remote wall box, my wife can get to it. The fan only kicks on with a substantial draw like the toaster, lights or tool batt chargers won't kick it on. Probably all features of quality inverters but a fist for me.
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Nobadays
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# Posted: 1 Mar 2022 09:24
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I've had good luck so far with Giandel inverters, they are a Chinese unit, one of those on Will's list of recommended inverters at DIY Solar. A 1200/2400 is $200 on Amazon.
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travellerw
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# Posted: 1 Mar 2022 13:48 - Edited by: travellerw
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Quoting: paulz The fan only kicks on with a substantial draw like the toaster, lights or tool batt chargers won't kick it on. Probably all features of quality inverters but a fist for me.
Paul.. You should check the unloaded draw. Just turn the inverter on with nothing plugged in and see what it draws both powered up and on the standby power (when you turn if off via the wall switch as that is actually a "soft off"). Some of the Chinese inverters put out excellent clean sine waves, but have really crazy standby draws. The one I had drew 1.2A in soft off and 1.5A when power up fully (nothing plugged in either case).
Its not a huge deal if you have the power to spare, or if you are turning it on and using a decent amount of power. Just sucks when you have nothing drawing to pay a 20W penalty.
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 1 Mar 2022 14:03
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That is one of the reasons Ive been using smaller inverters (and with no tripping issues so Im not 'on the edge').
I bought the 2x 100ah LFP's with the intension of having my little 300w psw and the 1000/2000w psw hooked up so I could pick which to turn on and plug into....Im still as well off as I was before with just the 300.
I took a look at the Giandel products on Amazon; the 600/1200 psw unit attracts me though maybe I shouldnt go incrementally, just make a big jump and get a 1K+. Im heading out for woods & fields walk (unseasonably warm here  and think about it.
Btw, I tagged the failed inverter so nobody, including me, wonders what the deal is with it in the future.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 1 Mar 2022 14:42
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If you want a 1/2 Respectable Inverter without getting deep into bux but not cheaped out, then do consider AIMS which is a US VAR (Value Added Reseller) who actually does support & warranty the products and are pretty good in general. AIMS is not Tier-1 by any means and I personally find their markup a bit too hefty but that's me looking at other vars etc.
They use TWO OEM's in China, both are good solid "Value Line" products and do exactly as they are spec'd. AIMS also does take teh time to have several models UL/CSA/ETL Certified as well (adds cost but worth it) and all of it is in US Stock.
LINK: https://www.aimscorp.net/UL-Listed-Power-Inverters/
Now if you want to save cash and don't mind a possible wait, then look at Yiyen & Sigineer Inverters which are also available through ebay/amazon and the Baba's of course.
I started with a Yiyen 24V/3000W Pure Sine Low Frequency and it worked quite well but that model could not support LFP properly (7 yrs ago). Then I stepped up to the Samlex EVO 4024 I am running now.
REFS:
Yiyen: https://www.yiyen.com/products/pure-sine-wave-inverter/
Sigineer: https://www.sigineer.com/product-category/inverter-chargers/
NB: Sigineer has US Warehouse & Distribution and is used by several VARS.
Hope it helps with options & possibilities.
Back to snow-blowing... 4 hours done, at least 4 more to go... ugh
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 1 Mar 2022 18:06 - Edited by: gcrank1
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Thanx guys, very helpful as always
My, oh my,
Does the component replacing and upgrading ever end? (rhetorical question, I know it doesnt, Ive had 3 Harley's).
Now Im thinking maybe go the whole hog and get a psw inverter charger with auto transfer!
Do I stick with 12v or go 24?
After that........
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Brettny
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# Posted: 1 Mar 2022 20:24
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Get one with a auto start (generator) feature too. Next thing you know all you have to do is add fuel.
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 1 Mar 2022 20:34
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Ha!
How do I interface that with the pull rope?
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paulz
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# Posted: 2 Mar 2022 08:49
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Quoting: travellerw Paul.. You should check the unloaded draw. Just turn the inverter on with nothing plugged in and see what it draws both powered up and on the standby power (when you turn if off via the wall switch as that is actually a "soft off"). Some of the Chinese inverters put out excellent clean sine waves, but have really crazy standby draws. The one I had drew 1.2A in soft off and 1.5A when power up fully (nothing plugged in either case).
Good idea. So, with it off I'm getting about .05A on the Aili meter (12v system), and with it powered up and nothing plugged in almost 2A. More than most? Every bit counts here..
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travellerw
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# Posted: 2 Mar 2022 09:28
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Quoting: paulz Good idea. So, with it off I'm getting about .05A on the Aili meter (12v system), and with it powered up and nothing plugged in almost 2A. More than most? Every bit counts here
Holy moley.. 2A is pretty huge. Not a huge deal when you are drawing power, but pretty painful overnight with everything turned off. For reference a energy star mini fridge will make the inverter draw about 6A-7A, but its %50ish duty cycle. So that inverter is drawing %65 of the power a fridge requires while at idle.
Remember to check the power using both power switches (the one on the front and the remote). The one on the front should be an actual power switch that kills the unit to zero power draw. The remote switch will be a "soft off" where it will draw just a small amount of power (I think that is what you tested). 0.05A is really good for a "soft off".
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 2 Mar 2022 10:37 - Edited by: gcrank1
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I couldnt resist, and, well, you know, inquiring minds and all that.....
Hooked the failed CCI back up and the v-meter, Wow!
It read 257 volts on the 120ac outlet. Meter is fine on a wall outlet. But 257? Seems that would have popped the radio as soon as I switched it on not after 20-30sec. Same with the led lights.
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paulz
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# Posted: 2 Mar 2022 13:45
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Quoting: travellerw Holy moley.. 2A is pretty huge.
Checked it again this morning. I didn't even know it had a switch on the unit, tiny little button. Anyway again, with it off .05A, On via the switch on the inverter, 1.9A unloaded. It is a 2,500/5,000 inverter btw.
Luckily I don't run it at night. My cabin has been DC all along until I put in a ceiling fan, toaster and nuker a few months ago. Fridge and Wifi are 12vdc, they run all night. I do leave it on during the day to power the shop lights in my shop.
I need another inverter for the shop, time to look at better units and move this one to the shop for occasional use.
Once again, good info trav.
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 2 Mar 2022 15:50 - Edited by: gcrank1
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Now my head is spinning again....High Freq vs Low Freq. inverters and the 'idle'/parasitic draw of the unit even being on powering nothing.
This latter concerns me as mine is a small 600w array/200ah lfp 12v system where effieciency matters. Even a 1a idle is 24ah's out of a 200ah battery. Of course, during solar charge hours solar does run it, 3-5 hrs of a typical day so call it 4hrs out of 24 here at 44*N, but 20hrs @ 1a is 10% of the bat-bank.
The otherwise attractive aio units seem to be around 3-5a idle? Call it 4a over 20hrs is 80ah's.
No wonder some high nothern lat users were draining bat-banks over winter.
In general, it looks like PSW inverters draw more than MSW and Low Req inverters again more than High Feq.
Will Prowse (test guy) over on Diysolarforum.com has said you need some 400w of solar just to feed the idle consumption of some of these units. Ive got 600w....
Well, expand the array! No, not a solution for me, poor solar exposure, the 6 panels are enough of an eyesore and the 2 lfp bats blew the budget. I thought the aio inv/chgr might be the answer with the easy charge the bank funtion and auto-transfer for whenever I power up the gen (Im the transfer now and have to turn on the chgr too) but the idle 'overhead' is too much.
Hmmmm
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travellerw
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# Posted: 2 Mar 2022 18:06
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Quoting: gcrank1 Well, expand the array! No, not a solution for me. Hmmmm
The cheap Chinese inverters mostly use a copied pure sine wave circuit. Its a cool circuit and produces very nice sine waves, at the cost of power. The higher wattage of the inverter, the higher its standby power usually is (just how the circuit works)
This is where the money comes in for the brand names. They have worked hard to make a circuit that is more efficient and we have to pay for that research.
As an example the Victron Multiplus 1200 draws 0.4-0.5A at idle. However, they also have a "search" mode where the inverter goes to sleep but will wake up when it senses something asking for current. This mode draws like 0.1A. Unfortunately, the search mode requires a fair load to sense. A 7W LED light is not enough to "wake" the inverter properly (or keep it awake).
AND THIS IS WHERE WE COME FULL CIRCLE! If you are trying to run some small loads 24 hours a day and want to be as efficient as possible, then 12V or 24V can make more sense.
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 2 Mar 2022 18:53 - Edited by: gcrank1
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Now that Ive been 'sobered' the fact is my little Bestek 300w psw inverter has been powering our simple wants without a hitch. Above that use is the little 1700/2000 inv/gen. A basic, effective system.
I had run 12v early on, the wire gauge required for LED 12v lights wasnt bad but for bigger stuff it was as short as possible runs of 12 and longer of 10 ga. Imo, for a very small cabin, rv, tenting 12vdc is fine, not so much for our 16x24 cabin.
Then there is the need for dc rated fixtures, switches, etc.
So, again no, btdt and it was barely satisfactory. Things improved dramatically when I committed to inverting at the bat-bank to 120vac. I just need the idle to be <1a, .3a is what I think my Bestek has.
So, tier 1 expensive (but quality) for a 1200-1500w, maybe 2kw, inverter to only switch on when I want to drive Big Stuff. That might be the best choice if I was 20yrs younger; at this point, 69, Im figuring maybe 10 more years of part-time recreational cabin'ing.....
The Giandel 1200 psw is interesting.
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ICC
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# Posted: 2 Mar 2022 21:41
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I have used the Outback FX and VFX series of inverters since about 2008; first one went in the cabin, second in the RV and then home. They have several features I like.
One, is that as the Victron that was mentioned above, they have a sleep mode. The trigger sensitivity is adjustable. I have it dialed down to where a typical LED night light equivalent to a 7-1/2 watt incandescent, will turn the inverter system On and with a very short lag time.
In the cabin and RV I have many switched outlets to allow disconnecting devices that are not used much. A couple of devices don't draw enough power on their own to trigger the inverter. On those I use an LED night light lugged into the switched outlet. When I click the switched outlet to On, the LED lights and will activate the inverter. For those items like the TV that draw enough on their own the night light is not needed. I have done that with the cabin and RV as they have smaller solar arrays and battery banks. Home is overpanelled with more than ample storage and I don't use sleep mode. At home I also don't use sleep mode as I want/need to keep clocks, etc operating 24/7.
For my home, I have stacked inverters to supply 240 VAC for those things that need 240 VAC. If more juice is needed than a single (or 2 stacked) can supply the system activates another inverter or pair. Seamlessly.
It seems about the only thing that can kill them is immersion in water and lightning strikes.
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travellerw
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# Posted: 2 Mar 2022 22:35
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Quoting: ICC I have used the Outback FX and VFX series of inverters since about 2008
I haven't had the pleasure of using them, but have worked on boats with them. Top notch gear for sure.
However, they ratchet up the price to a whole new level. I think the 2500W version would cost more than my whole system.
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ICC
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# Posted: 2 Mar 2022 23:47 - Edited by: ICC
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True, they are not cheap, but I have never had to replace one. A friend got struck by lightning (his cabin, not himself) and pretty much every solid state component in the CC and inverter fried. The aluminum case and big heavy copper wound transformer in the inverter were okay. New boards were bought and it is still working now years later.
My real point I guess is that, for me, buying very good to excellent equipment brings its own rewards.
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ICC
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# Posted: 2 Mar 2022 23:51
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Trivia: The guys that started Outback left and went on to found Midnite Solar. Another founded Magnum Energy. They all began at Trace Engineering and wanted to build better alt-energy equipment as back then most of the equipment that was made for use in boats was trash. They were all avid recreational sailors.
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Nobadays
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# Posted: 3 Mar 2022 09:18 - Edited by: Nobadays
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We use a Schneider 4048 at the cabin and like ICC'S Outback it has a sleep mode which is set at 5watts if memory serves but there are a couple things plugged in that have a slight draw... one being the microwave, most things are on switched plugs. We estimate the idle load to be at ~11watts so over the course of even a winter day where there may be 16 hours of no generation at all we will only burn ~4ah (11watts@48v × 16hrs).
I think the best advice I was given when originally designing my cabin system was, "unless you like fiddling with equipment rather then enjoying your time at the cabin, buy name brand, top quality equipment and design a system that can supply half again what you estimateright now.... your usage will grow." Buy once cry once.
I have repeated that to the neighbors I have helped design and build systems for. I'll give advice but refuse to physically work on cheapo systems.
Same advice for gcrank1....
If guys wonder why spouses get mad/irritated at them for buying solar gear it is usually because every time she turns around they are fiddling with it and/or buying another component.... "The SCC is too small we need a bigger one," "The inverter burned out/too small/wrong voltage," "We need to add one more battery," ....... Most of us have done it!
I helped design/build a system for my nearest neighbors last spring. A budget of $10,000. His wife was not convinced they needed it but he had sold a classic car he had so she grudgingly said do it. We came in at ~$8,000. A 24v system, all Victron components with bluetooth/wifi, 2,250w solar and 6/12v Battle Born batteries tied for 24v. I'm jealous of his system! His wife.... she absolutely loves it!
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Brettny
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# Posted: 3 Mar 2022 09:38
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More expensive inverters have alot more options and settings. They typicaly come with lower idle amp draw and more efficiency. Things like a timed shut off may save your batteries when you leave and forget to shut the inverter off. The transfer switch may be handily also.
I chose not to use a inverter/charger as they seam to draw more and you can get a 30a RV onboard charger for about $120.
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paulz
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# Posted: 3 Mar 2022 10:22
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Here's my excuse for not investing heavily into solar.
Never expected to get this far. My fridge, wifi, water pump, lights are all 12vdc. Wiring not a big deal in 300sf. Inverters and AC are a new addition and only for occasional use, toaster, nuker, 42" TV..
So far..
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FishHog
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# Posted: 3 Mar 2022 10:36
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I designed a cheap 12v system 8 years ago. But it’s basic. I really don’t need much power at the cottage. Or really want much power. I can have all the luxury items at home but truly enjoy a simple life at the cottage.
My system is 12v for all my lights, phone charger, and water pump. I have 1 line off an inverter for 120v. It’s sole purpose is to charge the laptop we use for work and to watch movies on. The inverter get turned on in the morning after a few hours of sun have topped up the batteries and only on until the computer is charged back up.
It also is used to charge cordless tool batteries
I didn’t buy any specific 12v switches. 120v stuff works just fine.
12v fridge, 12v led lights and 12v water pump is all I run.
Other than topping up the water in the batteries I’ve not done any maintenance to my system. Knock on wood
I realize everyone’s needs are different but if simple is your thing it can be done easily. I don’t want for anything more.
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