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bugs
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# Posted: 9 Aug 2011 07:52
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Hi folks.
After figuring out a system to use "pond" water for washing. We have decided that we are inherently lazy and don't want to carry the water up the hill alas Jack and Jill we are setting up a roof rain capture system.
I was wondering what other people are using to treat the water in the rain barrel to keep it from becoming a culture medium for algae and bacteria?
Do you chlorinate the water in the barrel once a week or so?
thanks
bugs
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Just
Member
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# Posted: 9 Aug 2011 10:16
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filtered and treated once a week ! if it isn't clean the chlorine will not work. we use it for washing and boil it to drink.
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trollbridge
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# Posted: 9 Aug 2011 11:53
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Oh...we need to know that too! We will be collecting rain water from the roof into a tank and were wondering how to treat it also. We know the tank should be dark colored so that sunlight can't penetrate it but what else? Also a more long term way to treat it would be good cause we aren't always there once a week. How do you filter yours Just?
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Just
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# Posted: 9 Aug 2011 15:09
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Quoting: trollbridge Also a more long term way to treat it would be good cause we aren't always there once a week. How do you filter yours Just?
could set up a drip or a slow release form of chlorine . less often in cool weather. not a problem for me my camp is only 5 m from home.
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bugs
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# Posted: 9 Aug 2011 18:29
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Just
That is quite the neat setup. Looks a little too much for me though.
I am planning to pail the rain water from the barrel through a 70 micron Tyler sieve followed by a Sawyer water filter and then chlorinate it.
I don't think I want to chlorinate the water in the barrel as it may damage the Sawyer filter.
Maybe if I paint the barrel black or use a black shroud of some sort and reduce the opening to just the size of the down spout it might keep enough light out to keep the algae somewhat under control.
Sounds like I will have to experiment a bit. But most of the whole small cabin process is one big experiment. Part of the fun.
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trollbridge
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# Posted: 10 Aug 2011 10:59 - Edited by: trollbridge
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Quoting: bugs Sounds like I will have to experiment a bit. But most of the whole small cabin process is one big experiment. Part of the fun.
Soooo true! Guess when we get closer we will be doing a lot of trial and error-probably mostly error. HA.
Thanks Just. We will be referring back to your drawing many times I'm sure.
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LakeSuperior5
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2011 16:37
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We will also be collecting rainwater from the roof. Little concerned about this as the roof has "shingles" and not a metal roof. Thinking about some type of filter prior to the water entering the rain barrel.
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PlicketyCat
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2011 17:59
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For non-potable use a shingle roof for rainwater is fine, just let the first few minutes of rain flush the system first and then divert into the barrel (there are several automatic diverters that do this). A bulk filter at the intake is usually all you need for washing up purposes -- a screen and layer of sand is really all you need, no chemical treatment should be necessary. As long as your barrel is covered against vermin/pests and sunlight can't penetrate, you shouldn't be having too much of an algae or contamination problem. You can bury your barrel or build an enclosure around it to block the sunlight fairly inexpensively.
You can certainly drink and cook with rain captured from a shingle roof, although it might taste a little funny. But filtering it through a fine micron ceramic filter system (like a Berkey) is usually all you need to make it safe... you can boil it if you want, or treat it with chemicals, but I haven't found that to be necessary in my neck of the woods.
If you're worried enough to chemically treat your water, or treat your storage/collection tanks, I recommend using peroxide rather than chlorine or other chemicals. Peroxide breaks down completely into oxygen and water so it is 100% biocompatible (soil or aquatic). Your greywater won't kill your lawn/garden and the treated water is less corrosive on seals and plumbing parts. Chlorine is only biocompatible in small doses in aquatic environments. It is toxic in your lawn/garden and can degrade seals and plumbing over time (esp. at higher concentrations in treatment vessels). Peroxide can also be safely used as a "blast" treatment without making the water toxic for an extended period of time -- so you can treat your barrels whenever you get to your cabin instead of worrying about continuously treating them. You can get peroxide suitable for water treatment (30-35% strength) from most spa/pool suppliers.
Good article: http://www.essentialwater.net/support-information/hydrogen-peroxide-a-real-treat-for- well-water
More reading on Peroxide: follow the links found at http://www.h2o2-4u.com/
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bugs
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2011 19:11
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PlicketyCat
Thanks for the info. Will investigate peroxide a bit more. The authors of the articles you provided are possibly biased based on their associations/employ. But that said peroxide maybe an alternative to chlorine.
We don't have a lawn, garden, seals, or plumbing to worry about and where we are we have so much water that dilution of chlorine is not a significant issue especially when you count the number of chemical sprayers on the road.
We did have success with our rain catch... 50 gal in less than a week. (Could have done without the hail tho). We just added a couple of ml's of chlorine to the water and used it for washing. No more "down the hill to fetch a pail of water" from the pond.
Still here so I guess it was okay!!!
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PlicketyCat
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2011 20:36
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I stumbled onto peroxide while investigating greywater reuse... chlorinated water builds up in soil and can kill plants and beneficial soil microorgranisms and I absolutely need the maximum use of my greywater in the garden. There's no risk of that with peroxided water unless you pour concentrated peroxide into your garden... there's no build up and peroxide breaks down really fast (so blast treatments are effective and safe in a short period). The links I provided may be tainted with a sales bias, but the science behind it is still valid.
If you're concerned about the safety of potentially harmful chemicals in your drinking water and the possible absorption of those chemicals through your skin, then peroxide is absolutely the way to go... peroxide has been used for over a century to cleanse and disinfect foods and wounds. Peroxide also does not react adversely to other common chemicals... so no worries about bleach + ammonia = deadly chlorine gas. Most "oxygen bleaches" are peroxide-based.
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Malamute
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2011 21:25
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I've seen some diagrams for simple diversions to collect the bird poop, bugs, leaves and other things that will end up in direct rainwater off a roof. It amounts to a T fitting and capped leg below it in the line to the barrel, the T leg fills first with the crud, then after it fills, the better water goes directly into the collection barrel. The T leg needs to be cleaned now and then.
Cat may have more specifics on this, or other simple ways to do it.
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LakeSuperior5
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# Posted: 26 Aug 2011 10:09
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Very interesting PlicketyCat! Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
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bugs
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# Posted: 26 Aug 2011 11:04
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I have been noticing (now that I am interested in such things for the shack) the four rain barrels (old blue canola oil barrels) that we use to catch rain water at our house for watering the garden/flowers/pond. The water seems to be quite clear altho the sides of the barrels have developed a "dark slime" (Not very scientific I know!! Will have to put it under the scope to see what it really is.). So if that is what occurs at the shack it will be fine. We will just run it through the Sawyer filter and put a ml or two of chlorine/peroxide (thanks PC) in it and it should be fine for washing.
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PlicketyCat
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# Posted: 26 Aug 2011 16:02
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Slimey-on-the-outside water is perfectly acceptable for washing up, especially if you're filtering or heating it first ;) You all would probably blow a gasket if you saw some of the water I've washed laundry in, much less drank! In the bush during winter, you can either tog up to collect 10 gallons of snow that melts down to 1 gallon on the stove, or suck it up and use the weird water in the last Aquatainer. LOL
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Vince P
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# Posted: 26 Aug 2011 16:33 - Edited by: Vince P
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See this old thread here:
http://www.small-cabin.com/forum/1_13_0.html
The relevant post:
"Here is the formula that I keep at my cabin just in case I need to make my rain barrel into potable water with regular household bleach (Sodium Hypochlorite 5%). 50 gallon barrel (192L) add about 20ml bleach or about 0.4ml per gallon
An online reference can be found here: http://www.clubcruceros.org/FoodWaterPrecautions.html
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PlicketyCat
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# Posted: 28 Aug 2011 17:03
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Here's a good reference for initial collection plumbing, including a really low-tech first flush diverter.
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Water/ShopRainCol/Collection.htm
A simple FF diverter is always better, as discovered by these guys after investing in several of the fancier automatic types.
http://www.appropedia.org/Ersson_rainwater_harvest_and_purification_%28original%29
Good references, including really good DIY diagrams for FF:
http://www.twdb.state.tx.us/publications/reports/rainwaterharvestingmanual_3rdedition .pdf
http://practicalaction.org/docs/technical_information_service/rainwater_harvesting.pd f
http://www.slowsandfilter.org/
Great video for the main components of a DIY FF: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch-YsD9rOGk (this is only pt 1, he hasn't posted pt 2 yet)
The biggest impact, simplest, things are to add a screen at the top of your gutter/downspout for bulk debris, a finer screen in your downspout for smaller diebris, and the FF diverter for grit and beasties. None of those are complicated to DIY; but if you prefer ready-made, here's a good source:
http://www.aquabarrel.com/product_downspout_filters.php
Getting the water clean and free of debris (pre-filtering) before it ever gets into your barrel is 90% of the solution. Keeping critters, beasties and sunlight out of the barrel is another 9%. Post-filtering with a fine micron ceramic candle and/or treatment with chemicals to make it potable is only 1%. Don't rely on chemical methods downstream as a substitute for good, hygienic mechanical methods upstream!
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bugs
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# Posted: 2 Sep 2011 14:50
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I put some of the "dark slime" that coats the inside of the rain barrels we have at our house under the microscope. It turns out to be a mix of silt and bacteria tied together with filamentous blue-green and green algae with an entire universe of protoza and rotifers feeding on the bits.
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PlicketyCat
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# Posted: 2 Sep 2011 15:30
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bugs Ain't nature cool -- little microcosm in a barrel:D Were you able to identify which species of bacteria et al were in there? If none of them are particularly pathogenic, they might not be a problem; but the algae suggests your barrel isn't as light-tight as it could be.
Anyways, I just reading about how reusing barrels for drinking water that held food, especially oils or oily foods, can result in higher microorganism counts. The plastic is porous and particles get stuck in it which can be a buffet for the beasties. Apparently, you can't really ever get a used barrel clean enough for potable water storage, you'll always need to do more filtering/treating than you would with a brand new barrel. Of course, if it's just irrigation water, that's not really an issue.
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bugs
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# Posted: 2 Sep 2011 16:23
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Hey PC
It would take some culturing methinks to get a species name on the bacteria. I am ashamed to say I did not id the algae to genus.... I'm lazy.
A few weeks ago I put some of the backwash from our filter under the scope. We were using pond water filtered through a 70 micron sieve and then run through the Sawyer filter. The water was full of broken bits of colonial algae, desmids, free living bacteria and ciliated protozoa.
I find a drop of pond water, or in this case barrel water, absolutely fascinating and can spend hours just poking around the bits to see what is there. I enjoyed this when I was a kid when my parents bought me a $10 microscope from Eaton's and I still do xx years/decades later when I have a couple of $10000 microscopes and too many university degrees. Little did my parents realize that they started my career in aquatic bugdom way back then.
Interesting point about the food grade barrels.... "food for thought"!!!
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PlicketyCat
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# Posted: 2 Sep 2011 20:28
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I always loved how monstrous some of the beasties look under magnification and how busy everything is all around us without us even being aware of it. I'd love to be able to study the microscopic world, but I'm busy enough trying to keep a handle on the macroscopic :)
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bigfoot5678
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# Posted: 16 Sep 2011 14:04
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Check out the book:
"rain collection for the mechanically challenged"
Use a black or dark green tank to keep out ALL light...no light entering = no algea.
or...Chlorine bleach (standard non-scented type) can be used sparingly....some amount like a cup per 200 gallons...not sure.
that "first flush" device is easily made with PVC and a hose bibb drain at the bottom, with cleanout cap to clean out collected dirt, debris now and then.
IMHO
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Bzzzzzt
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# Posted: 11 Oct 2011 20:35
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Hey PlicketyCat, thanks for the links you posted back in August. Those look very informative.
It is my intention to make a rain water catchment and I have a question about a first flow diverter. Looking at THIS SYSTEM could you not just drill a small hole towards the bottom of the large pipe that was used as the first flow diverter that would be small enough to allow the pipe to fill with water and yet big enough to allow the 2 or 3 gallons of water in it to leak out thereby readying the diverter for the next rain event?
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PlicketyCat
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# Posted: 12 Oct 2011 03:14
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That's a really solid low-tech solution that rarely ever clogs or fails as long as you remember to drain the diversion chamber. Some folks just barely crack the tap so it keeps a slight trickle, that seems to clog less than the pinhole concept. I would personally recommend using a screw-in cap for the bottom of the flush chamber (like he used on the gutter diverters) rather than a glued on cup, that way you can open it up easily to clean out any gunk that might build up.
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dvgchef
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# Posted: 12 Oct 2011 16:42
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bugs
I'm in upstate NY - I collect water from a metal roof into a blue 55 gallon barrel that once held Tomato Paste. All I do is drain and clean the tank once a year with a 10% bleach solution. I boil it for cooking, otherwise I just use it straight out of the tap. I seem to remember hearing that the blue color of the barrel allows the UV rays to kill the nasty bacteria. Hope this helps.
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jshane
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# Posted: 12 Oct 2011 20:22
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I'm new (as of today) but I wanted to weigh in on this subject. I hope this information is helpful, if I'm wrong please correct me because I want to use a rain harvesting system too as well as reusing grey water this is what I have so far. When rain falls on the roof, into the gutters and down to your collection system it should first go through a "first flush system" this system collects the first water that runs from the roof in runs into a pvc pipe or smaller barrel where all the bits you don't want to drink is collected that the clean water then over flows into the collection barrel you want to use. (I hope that was clear to understand.) From what I've read algae "the green stuff" can only grow with sunlight so removing the sunlight by using blue or black barrels would at the least slow the growth if not stop it all together. To safely drink this water there are a couple of options I've been reviewing the first is of course boiling the water. the second is a distiller like moonshiners used to cook with it sends the water through a process that turns it to steam then cools it back to a liquid, you can also make a smaller one using a pressure cooker. I just been thinking of ways to use a gravity system so I don't need power for a pump.
Concerning grey water i know from a sink and the washing machine or water from washing clothes if you don't use a washing machine you can collect that into a separate barrel and connect it to the refill line to flush the toilet with. I'm trying to avoid using chemicals (not there is anything wrong with that). I hope this was helpful to someone.
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dlynnt
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# Posted: 13 Oct 2011 12:36
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Hi, Just wanted to let you know that the Big Berkey water filter will work excellently. It filters appoximately 6,000 gallons of water and removes most all impurties. You don't have to boil water. Look it up on line, however it a bit pricey for the big one at around $350.00. They do make many other sizes that can accomodiate most needs.
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edvac
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# Posted: 30 Dec 2012 10:50
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Try a slow sand filter for water supply purification. They do work, and don't need chemicals. They don't add poisons either.
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apray
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# Posted: 4 Apr 2013 17:10
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I am so excited to find this thread. I know I will be referring back to it as we put together our "water system" for our shed toilet and shower.
The local hardware store sells white rain barrels that they get from a bottler. They add parts, including something to add pressure. I'm thinking that we will need to paint it. Any thoughts on that?
I am also thinking that we will need to add a pump for water pressure. We are going to use an Eccotemp L5 for the shower. Any suggestions for that?
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Rossman
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# Posted: 5 Apr 2013 17:23
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Just weighing in to say that peroxide is not a scam. Tons of hydroponic systems use it to keep the water reservoirs clean and clear...
As mentioned you can get the high grade peroxide from pool/spa shops or also hydroponic gardening shops (be careful that ppl don't think you're starting a grow-op!)
It's pretty expensive and I think it breaks down reasonably quickly so you don't want to leave it sitting around. You need to be careful not to get it on you, if it contacts your skin it will bleach it white in like a second or less.
Personally I would use peroxide over chlorine given the choice.
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creeky
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# Posted: 9 Apr 2013 09:38
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Here's to Schmutzdecke. Thanks Plicketycat for the links.
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