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optimistic
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# Posted: 14 Dec 2012 23:37
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After a week and a half of emails with the Amish salesman - I got a quote for a 12'x12' shed. Main added features and expenses:
- 12'10" high (regualr they are 6'8")
- steel roof
- 3'x80" insulated entry door
- pt joists
- 30# paper under roof
- 2x6 rafters
- and a 2 hour delivery from PA-NY
All together $3300. Needless to say it includes wood siding, 3/4 plywood on floors, 1/2 plywood under roof, and two windows.
Thoughts?
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spencerin
Member
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# Posted: 14 Dec 2012 23:49
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If he's true Amish, absolutely.
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optimistic
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# Posted: 15 Dec 2012 00:16
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hhh... What is a true Amish? They have photos of the guys who work there and they look and have names of Amish.
But I feel that many of those sites put photos like that.
Thanks for the input!
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bobrok
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# Posted: 15 Dec 2012 08:15
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Amish do not use or accept use of photography. Unless these are clandestine photos taken and published w/o their permission I'd be suspect of their authenticity. And even then I wouldn't trust the fact that their advertising contains photos.
I bought an Amish made shed from.an honest to goodness Amish carpenter. I went to his house, met his wife and kids. They were authentic. BTW his name was Joe.
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optimistic
Member
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# Posted: 15 Dec 2012 08:59
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I don't know much about ultra-christians but I do know some about ultra-jewish orthodox and they have so many different sects. You can't really fit them all under one definition - one might eat in a regular restaurant only that he will keep kosher while another might not even walk into it because he is stricter.
So maybe, if one Amish doesn't take photos or uses the internet the next does.. I do not know.
Anyway, the quote I got is from :
http://www.shedsunlimited.net/
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Martian
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# Posted: 15 Dec 2012 09:32
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If you don't mind paying around $1700 for someone's labor, then its a good deal.
Tom
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ericfromcowtown
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# Posted: 15 Dec 2012 09:36 - Edited by: ericfromcowtown
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I'm not sure what the man's religious convictions have to do with his shed-building abilities. For what it's worth,though, their "about us" page never says they're Amish, but from the Anabaptist tradition, which as "optimist" above surmises does include some groups with no aversion to photography. Later on, though, they mention that they're in the "heat of Amish country," which certainly gives the impression that that's who they are.
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PA_Bound
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# Posted: 15 Dec 2012 10:09
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It's tough to compare prices- but at first glance that seems like a fair price. But more importantly... does it seem fair to you? IMHO there is more to this than just the bottom-line cost. Do you trust them? Are they helpful? Do they seem to take care of you and want to work with you? If the answer to all these questions is "yes", then it sounds like a good deal.
And, honestly, who cares if they're Amish or not. Does being Amish somehow make them better? While I personally like the Amish (not everyone does, by the way), IMHO off the farm their builds are not much different than anyone else's.
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Paul
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# Posted: 15 Dec 2012 10:52
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I think you are in good shape, they seem to be very detail oriented(at least with the website). I will say thats on the higher end of the price scale but your also paying a large truck and man for 5 hours to deliver it. Depends on what you want to spend verse how much work you want/can/have time to do really. You could build it yourself for 1/3 of that or have lowes do it for 2/3 of that also. The building style is typical stick frame, the only amish aspect is the amish style family business part. It is a good thing to help a local mom n pop biz anytime you can but dont get hung up on the amish word. 30lb felt can be a rip-off sometimes it depends on the manufacturer. a good quality 15lb is thicker than some cheap 30lb. If you plan on heating the shed I'd strongly think about grace ice and water shield. metal can sweat when the inside is warmer than the outside. Grace is the only ice &water shield that actually sticks the the roof deck properly. Good luck with your shed 
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 15 Dec 2012 11:13
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My question is, will a shed be convertible to a cabin and totally satisfy your wants? The main shortcoming I personally have with using a shed is insulating the roof if you build in a loft, a cathedral type ceiling. To me, the 2x6 roofing does not provide much room for insulation and venting. But it is better than 2x4. And that may just be my personal hangup.
On the Amish... I don't give many extra points to being Amish or not. ... Ever seen EdenPure ads for those expensive heaters that are suposed to save you money? The ads are replete with Images of Amish workmen. EdenPure heaters advertising borders on being a scam, IMO So there goes a whole bunch of Amish credibility. http://open4energy.com/forum/home/heating/mapawatt_edenpure_heater_scam_review Not everybody with a beard is Amish. Not everybody with a beard is honest ot dishonest. What they say, do and what they build is what counts. The sheds on that site don't look any better or worse than what I see being built here in NM; built by an assortment of gringo's and Mexicans, legal and illegal.
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optimistic
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# Posted: 15 Dec 2012 13:33
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PA - I agree. Being Amish doesn't mean it will be good. I didn't really think that... How much did you pay for yours btw? (I know it is much bigger but still)
Paul - what do you mean Lowe's can build it for me? Also, can you give a link to that product you mention for metal sweat?
Their regular 12'x12' shed is about $1800 which is quite normal. Then my additions are:
$470 for doubling the height of the shed
$500 for delivery (my mistake: they are 3h and 20min away)
$210 for metla roof
+ additions that are small and add up
But this proves the power of the internet... I was ready to order on Monday but now after realizing that the shipping is $500 (it didn't stick into my brain for some reason) I should try to find someone closer and see if I can lower it a bit.
Thanks everyone.
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neb
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# Posted: 15 Dec 2012 16:21
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That is a good deal and it doesn't matter who they are as long as you are happy with the product. Sometimes having this work done is more efficient way to get things done. If you figure all your expenses in getting it biult you will have about the same in what they are asking. There is travel time back and forth and many hidden extras that add up. Sounds very good to me.
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rayyy
Member
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# Posted: 15 Dec 2012 17:39
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It would be about a grand in materials to build this shed yourself.
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Paul
Member
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# Posted: 15 Dec 2012 18:38
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This is ice and water shield. http://www.homedepot.com/buy/wr-grace-36-in-x-75-ft-grace-ice-water-shield-5003002.ht ml#specifications Your builder could most likely get it cheaper through their supplier or an actual roofing supply company. If you dont plan on heating the shed then it isnt really worth the extra expense. If you did heat it and it did sweat(without ice shield), it would still take a few years for the damage to become structural(roof decking). If it had dry wall, the water could find its way in under the plywood and cause small water marks. I have never bough a shed from lowes but they do sell the kits or kit plus installation. I dont know what kind of custom changes they offer but thats why they have all those sheds set up outside in front. I didnt mean to freak you out, sorry if I did.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 15 Dec 2012 18:59
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Re the metal roofing and the Grace ice n water shield....
#1, metal does not sweat. Moisture may condense on cold metal if air can get to the metal. But sweat is the wrong term, conveys the wrong idea, IMO. With the metal installed over roofing felt and that over plywood or OSB roof sheathing, with the metal flat against the roofing paper (no purlins; they are not needed when the roof is fully sheathed) , no air is flowing under the metal, so there is no condensation. The small amount of air that may make it through the ribs is negligible. If the roofer install the foam rubber strips under the metal roofing at the ridge there is no air flow. No condensation. Keeps bugs out too.
Ice n Water Shield is great stuff. It's purpose is to prevent water incursion that can form when an ice dam forms at the eve edge of the roof. This occurs usually with roofs/ceilings that have not got enough insulation. Heat escapes and melts snow on the roof. Water runs down the roof under the snow. When the water hits the cold eve area it freezes and causes an ice dam. Water backs up and finds someplace, a nail hole, a tear, a roofing paper seam, someplace to leak through and wet the roof sheathing. Or if really bad drip/run down the walls or into the ceiling.
If you want to properly insulate the shed roof to prevent this, or minimize it, you need more insulation in the ceiling or roof than what you can get with 2x6 rafters.
A thought would be to ask if the builder can supply the shed without the roofing metal installed. Then you can install rigid foam on the roof sheathing. With sufficient thickness (R-value) of foam you can then stuff the rafter bays full of fiberglass and leave them unvented without any problems. I'd have to check on how many inches of foam you'd need to be able to do the unvented space.
Some may think I'm overly fond of pushing better insulation. To that I say, "remember rifraf and the issues he's had with his shed converted to a home. His problem was magnified by the 2x4 roof, but 2x6's don't offer that much more space for insulation.
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PA_Bound
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# Posted: 15 Dec 2012 19:00
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My 14'x40' cost about $9500.00- with certain customizations and charges for a tough delivery.
Now, before anyone starts to "flame" me for how much it would have cost me to build it myself, don't waste your time typing the post as I don't want to hear it. For me, it was worth the price to have a place that was immediately secure and water-tight. I would not have been able to do it without that option.
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optimistic
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# Posted: 15 Dec 2012 19:27
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Interesting stuff don.
My ceiling insulation plan between joists was:
2" rigid foam (r5 per inch = 10r), then pink batts for 2x4 which are R13, and then a vapor barrier, and the wood panels sits on top of that. That is 23r plus the vapor barrier can reduce air sipping through.
Is that enough?
I do see that with my zip I need 38r but I think that is more for saving on heating which is not my issue.
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optimistic
Member
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# Posted: 15 Dec 2012 19:34
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PA-Bound - I should copy paste your response on why you went with it - it is as if you are reading my thoughts.
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 15 Dec 2012 20:05
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Quoting: optimistic 2" rigid foam (r5 per inch = 10r), then pink batts for 2x4 which are R13, and then a vapor barrier, and the wood panels sits on top of that. That is 23r plus the vapor barrier can reduce air sipping through.
Should be okay....
1. Find your climate zone here
Click on your state, a map with the counties opens. Determine the climate zone number.
2. Check this list...
Climate Zone Required Exterior Foam
Marine 4 R-2.5 for 2x4 walls; R-3.75 for 2x6 walls
Zone 5 R-5 for 2x4 walls; R-7.5 for 2x6 walls
Zone 6 R-7.5 for 2x4 walls; R-11.25 for 2x6 walls
Zone 7 & 8 R-10 for 2x4 walls; R-15 for 2x6 walls
Note it states exterior foam. I don't know if it will be much of a difference with foam installed in the bays. A lot will depend on you. The exterior foam has the advantage of covering and insulating the framing 2x's. With the foam inside it becomes very important to seal all the edges of the foam sheets extremely well. You would need to do that to ensure no moisture laden air makes it in there to contact the cold sheathing.
The idea is that exterior foam of sufficient thickness will keep the inside face of the sheathing warm enough to prevent any moisture condensing against it.
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Paul
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# Posted: 15 Dec 2012 20:12
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Mtn is correct condensation is a more correct term. Im from the stl we say sweat when there is moisture sweat on my water pipes, sweat on my soda glass, etc. That would depend on how warm you want it be as opposed to your climate but that should take care of the rain noise pretty well. headed to the work christmas party have a great night
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 15 Dec 2012 20:13
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The idea is also to not count on the vapor barrier to hold back 100% of the moisture. In fact the interior vapor barrier may now be a bad thing (with the foam in place.) It may trap moisture between the foam and the vapor barrier.
The info on the R-value for exterior foam in the different climate zones was developed to help people with existing homes who want to improve their wall insulation. The easiest way is to strip the siding and add inches of foam and reside. The info should apply to a roof such as yours. Any moisture that gets into the cavities with the fiberglass batts then dries to the interior which is almost always less humid than the exterior, especially in winter.
Small spaces may have issues with excess moisture from cooking, showers and non vented heaters though.
It tends to be more complicated than one might think.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 15 Dec 2012 20:48
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Quoting: optimistic After a week and a half of emails with the Amish salesman - I got a quote for a 12'x12' shed. Main added features and expenses: - 12'10" high (regualr they are 6'8") - steel roof - 3'x80" insulated entry door - pt joists - 30# paper under roof - 2x6 rafters - and a 2 hour delivery from PA-NY All together $3300. Needless to say it includes wood siding, 3/4 plywood on floors, 1/2 plywood under roof, and two windows. Thoughts?
Smoking deal. I built a 4X8 small garage for just my riding mower, no foundation, its on cement columns in each corner going down 2 feet and I had $1,100 into it in materials alone. It was only 6 feet high walls too, crushed rock on the floor.
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neb
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# Posted: 15 Dec 2012 21:46
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Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech Smoking deal. I built a 4X8 small garage for just my riding mower, no foundation, its on cement columns in each corner going down 2 feet and I had $1,100 into it in materials alone. It was only 6 feet high walls too, crushed rock on the floor.
I couldn't agree more it is a great deal!
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optimistic
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# Posted: 16 Dec 2012 00:38
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thanks Toyota and ned. I am in the same mind set of PA_bond
Don - a climate guide (gov website) says I need 38r in ceiling but I think that is for dwellings - full time. Walls will also have 13R bats and vapor barrier.
The only thing I am not sure on how to do, and would love to hear ideas, is insulating the floors. I can ask them to do it but just sticking batts there won't be good and needs more attention.
This thing sits on 5 pt 4x4's so I was thinking on cutting 1/2 pt plywood into strips that are the width between each of those 4x4's, 12ft wide, with pt 2x4's holding them, then slide them under and between those 4x4's, and screw them from below. This will enclose them from below. Then I will cut small holes in the subfloor in the cabin, between joists, and blow insulation in there....
Or maybe just stretch some high mil poly between those 4x4's and do the same...
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 16 Dec 2012 10:54
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Floors can be a problem to insulate when you can't easily get underneath. Even then it is uncomfortable. We used f-glass batts and covered the bottom of the joists with 3/8 plywood in a , so far successful, effort to keep the rodents out.
Blown could work if the machine is made for blowing into cavities. The free use with purchase of insulation ones around here are only rated suitable for blowing into an attic. You would probably need an vent hole at the opposite end of the joist bay for air to exit, etc, just like they do for wall stud bays. Never tried blowing into a floor myself.
Another thought... ask if they can use an outswing door. They are made with special hinges that have fixed non-removable hinge pins. That's to keep an intruder from pulling the pins and removing the door to gain access. Those doors also have the threshhold turned the right way so water runs away from the door. It might make better use of the available floor space if you didn't have to worry about the door swinging into the room. Around here I've bought them prehung at HD, off the rack.
You could then also consider adding a layer of foam on top of the plywood floor they install, and cover that with another plywood skin. You would loose a copuple - three inches of height, but plan around that.
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Cooks Dock
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# Posted: 16 Dec 2012 11:21
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Might have missed it but, what is the structure going to rest on?
I'm thinking the floor insulation discussion. Alway have the floor insulated during construction, yes/no?
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 16 Dec 2012 11:54
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Quoting: Cooks Dock Alway have the floor insulated during construction, yes/no?
If it's being built outdoors, in the weather, I believe that it is a bad idea to insulate before the structure is dried in. I have seen a few projects where the floor was insulated and then it rained before the structure was completed. This being small would make it easier to get it all done in dry weather.
This may be built in an indoor factory which would make that no issue. Can the builder place batts in the floor before laying the subfloor>
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VC_fan
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# Posted: 16 Dec 2012 12:51
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I agree with others that your price doesn't seem out of line. One suggestion. A 12'x12' that is 12' high is going to look really weird. A huge advantage of going with this building option is getting a good idea of what they'll be like (inside and outside) when done, but I doubt that they had one of these proportions for you to see. Sketch it out and think about it and make sure you're not surprised when it shows up. Good luck.
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optimistic
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# Posted: 17 Dec 2012 20:15
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I will ask for that door. It is a great tip.
vc-fan
I know... I built a 3d model in scketch up but it is still hard to imagine. Also, on the plans it looks like it has plenty of room but it doesn't... ;)
I am thinking of to ask them to insulate it and then sticking 3" xps between the five 4x4 skids which will add r and prevent the batts from moving
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