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TomChum
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# Posted: 16 Jan 2013 14:41 - Edited by: TomChum
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Quoting: bldginsp Something has to be done, but exactly what, is the rub
I'll float an idea that I just had.  Lets start at 15 micrograms, see how that goes for a few years. Gotta do this slowly, starting at a higher particulate, or people wil think the government is out of control. If the air is still getting polluted by wood smoke, reduce it down maybe 20%, like 12 micrograms? The only entity capable of doing this for us is the manufacturers making the change to all NEW stoves sold, because the people will NOT get together and do it on their own. Just an idea......
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MJW
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# Posted: 16 Jan 2013 16:40
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Quoting: TomChum Lets get real. That stuff you're reading, seeing, hearing, Fox news, talk radio, it's not true
Wow...what is the implication here?
From now on I will confine my comments and discussion to the topic of small cabins ONLY.
I obviously don't have a clue. Maybe I can pick one up at my next Tea Party rally.
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larry
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# Posted: 17 Jan 2013 10:32
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Quoting: MJW Sorry if you can't see the steady erosion of our freedoms but I can see them clearly
with any freedom come a certain bit of responsibility. if you are in a populated area where wood heating is common it would be very irresponsible of you to install and use a old style wood stove that doesn't meet EPA standards. these regulation are put in place to help protect air quality not to stop you from heating with wood. AMEN brother! for you Tom Chum
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groingo
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# Posted: 17 Jan 2013 11:24 - Edited by: groingo
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If you look back in wood stove history, pollution was always a trigger for change, it was a big problem in the 1800's and thus new multi stage burn technology was developed by the stove makers, (the FL Kahn / Estate Stove Company was the technology leader) either that or go out of business. Hotblast, Tripple Effect and Baffled stoves soon became the norm and reburning flue gasses was the goal and it worked very well and is still used today but under different names and with different materials.
It boils down to giving the stove makers a mandate (just like any industry) if you can't do it you go out of business and needless to say the Wood stove industry has met and will continue to meet every challenge. given the chance.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 17 Jan 2013 21:46
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Other problem is that you can sell all kinds of new stoves with minimal output, but the old ones with no particulate control just keep chugging along, putting out hundreds of times more particulate than the new ones. It's like putting a band aid on your right big toe when your left foot is cut off and bleeding at the artery.
So, do we just wait for the old stoves to burn out and die? I guess so. I don't want to be the person who tells someone they have to get rid of their existing stove and buy a new expensive one......
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Borrego
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# Posted: 17 Jan 2013 22:09
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Regardless of what our friend Tom says, the basic point of all this is that our freedoms are being gradually eroded and most people are like the frog in the pot. It's all about freedom. Now, I'm really gonna stretch a point, but I'd rather live in a smoggy free state than a clean-aired dictatorship. Gimme my guns and wood burning stove, sorry......
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TomChum
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# Posted: 18 Jan 2013 07:17
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Yes there has been a serious erosion of rights in the USA that started at 9/11. Remember 2001? Everybody's feeling it but our 'news' has attributed this to "the current administration". Do you remember we have a congress?
That the US is becoming a dictatorship is ludicrous. Do they think anyone even knows what a dictatorship is? No. reminder: Idi Amin. Mussolini, Saddam Hussein. Dictatorships do not have a "congress". It's practically insane, but everyone's repeating these catchphrases they get from the news.
My warning is, if a news agency is spreading this kind of disparate BS you are wise to be afraid, but you SHOULD be afraid of what their intentions are. Pay attention, don't just "believe".
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rayyy
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# Posted: 18 Jan 2013 08:13
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You know,anybody that lives in a cold weather climate has to burn somthing to keep warm.If you have to flick the thermostat up to get it warmer in your home,somewhere,somehow your burning somthing to make that heat.I am curious to know what persentage of the people around the world burn wood for heat in comparison to burning anything else.Anyone care to make a guesstoment?It's probably single diget.
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TomChum
Member
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# Posted: 18 Jan 2013 08:24
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Probably a high % in China, Korea, Russian states, or wherever there is a lot of wood.
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Kharkov43
Member
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# Posted: 18 Jan 2013 09:05
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Quote: Do you remember we have a congress? If thats the case why is everything EXECUTIVE ORDER with this guy . Why is everything brought through the back door without Congress!
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Montanagirl
Member
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# Posted: 18 Jan 2013 10:37
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Quoting: Kharkov43 If thats the case why is everything EXECUTIVE ORDER with this guy
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 18 Jan 2013 10:48
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Quoting: rayyy You know,anybody that lives in a cold weather climate has to burn somthing to keep warm.If you have to flick the thermostat up to get it warmer in your home,somewhere,somehow your burning somthing to make that heat.I am curious to know what persentage of the people around the world burn wood for heat in comparison to burning anything else.Anyone care to make a guesstoment?It's probably single diget.
Not sure of the number of wood stove users, nor the %, but it is likely fairly low IMO. However, accordimg to WA State figures residential wood stoves account for 44% of the fine particle pollution in Washington, Winter 2005, and all forms of transportation 16%.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 18 Jan 2013 12:31
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There are forms of heating that don't burn anything. Ground source heat pumps have long coils of pipe underground that pull heat out of the earth and then use it to heat your house. Requires electricity to run the pumps and blower, this can be made by solar.
This kind of technology is here and workable, but it's expensive and few can afford it. But, with such technology, you are out of the realm of government regulation, independent, and not causing any harm to your neighbors. Best of all worlds.
So, if our government provided the tax incentives and loan assurances that would make it possible for most of us to do this, they would be supporting our individual freedom. As it is now, they give government subsidies to big oil, coal and gas so that we can all stay dependent on polluting energy sources.
But they won't take my woodstove away from me until they pry my burnt fingers off of it. Ha!
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groingo
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# Posted: 18 Jan 2013 12:49
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Quoting: bldginsp So, if our government provided the tax incentives and loan assurances that would make it possible for most of us to do this, they would be supporting our individual freedom.
That was how it was supposed to be but with our current form of government where payoffs from special interests is the norm to get anything done, anything that threatens big oil or big energy quickly vanishes when it gets to the Government....not to sound like a radical, but your Government IS the ENEMY...it's that simple.
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oldgringo
Member
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# Posted: 18 Jan 2013 13:33
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I like it better when y'all confine yourselves to talking about cabins. This is beginning to sound like talk radio. Just sayin'...
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CabinBuilder
Admin
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# Posted: 18 Jan 2013 15:31
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-- ditto --
It's difficult to see a community of good people starting to divide on some issues.
Cabin Life is what unites all of us here - let's keep it that way.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 18 Jan 2013 17:06
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Point well taken. I think I've purged my political bile enough for a while.
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beachman
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# Posted: 18 Jan 2013 20:33
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Well, usually when I post, no one follows. So this might close the door on this topic. I think that if you do anything responsibly, then there is no reaction that would lead to legislation. (Thanks Larry) I hate any new legislation based on knee-jerk reaction as much as I hate no-tolerance rules. If someone has an old wood stove that belches smoke and gas that chokes the heck out of their neighbors, then they are asking for trouble. I grew up in Mass. and we used to burn leaves on the side of the road. I loved this and it was an easy way to get rid of a pile of leaves fast. But - the smoke created total haze around the city that became intolerable. Therefore, they had to ban my beloved leaf burning. And it was a good thing.
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reddly
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# Posted: 18 Jan 2013 21:25
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I'm with the majority of people on thinking this is perhaps done for a little bit of control and a bit of a money grab (despite that it might pay off with less air polution)
It's progress. Despite the small lack of freedom we give up to accomplish this progress it is what it is. Think of it this way. What if throwing human waste out your window wasn't illegal? At one time it wasn't. It was the prefered method of waste removal. People opened a window, yelled "look out bellow" and hurled feces into the streets just to trample it back into their homes later on.
So the EPA is forcing the issue. There are many things like this, work place safety regulations, FDA and everything they touch, smoking, and testing of products. Asbestos was once accepted as good insulation then we found the negative side effects and wow.. things had to change.
My only real problem with all of this is, the claim that a few (lets face it there aren't millions and millions of wood burning stoves still out there in daily operation) are the cause of air polution. It seems to me that the EPA might be better server by jumping on car manufacturers and requiring less emissions from vehicles, or better public transportation, or more power conservation (or even renewable power usage)
I'm merely saying that with progress and understanding that certain activites we used to do are being realized as harmful and we are trying to change them for the better. The down side is that the EPA might want to offer free exchange of old for new, or some kind of insentive program. That they could state an ultimate goal and how they hope to achieve it and what time line would be involved.
So I guess what I'm saying is... isn't there a happy middle ground for an idealistic cabin life style?
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Borrego
Member
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# Posted: 18 Jan 2013 21:55
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Oh darn, no more politics. OK, back to cabin stuff. In a way though, too bad to not be able to politely discuss current issues with our forum friends, we've proven to be a pretty civil bunch. Your call though Mr. Admin 
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Cabinbiscuit
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# Posted: 19 Jan 2013 08:05
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There is a lot in these posts that I would like to respond to but I'll try to limit my post to the non- political stuff.
My family and I have a dual fuel stove from the mid 1980's that burns both coal and wood. We live in central Pennsylvania which is like the Saudia Arabia of anthracite coal. For those that are not familiar with it, anthracite coal is harder and burns cleaner than bituminous coal which is more plentiful around the world.
In the fall and spring we burn wood and during the winter months we burn coal. As MtnDon said previously by far the wood fires produce much more particulate emissions than do the wood fires. The coal fires once they are going can stay lit continuously with no smoke or odor as long as they are properly tended. We just purchased the coal/wood stove two years ago to replace a propane stove due to the ever increasing price of propane. The main system in our house is oil fired forced hot air and we all know how oil prices are. Last winter we managed to only use 1/4 tank of oil along with less than one ton of coal and some free wood so our family saved well over $1200 on our winter heating costs. For us that's a lot of savings although heating the way we do now is certainly more work than just turning the thermostat up.
For me I would much rather give my money to a Pennsylvania coal mining company to support American jobs and use an American resource that God has given us here at home than to send even more money to a terrorist supporting Middle-Eastern country for heating oil if I can help it.
Our camp happens to border anthracite coal mine and in speaking to more than one person from that mine I learned that the good high quality coal that they are taking out of the ground here is being shipped to Asia. I.E. China and Korea. Do you know why? Because we are too stupid to use it here and they will take all of our cheap natural resources they can get. It makes me sick.
For those of you that are worried about pollution, you do know that they have had scrubbers on smoke stacks for a out thirty years or so now right.
With regard to particulate matter released into the air, have you ever seen what is released during a car fire, a house fire, a forest fire, a volcanic eruption. The truth of the matter is that the vast majority of air problems air caused by too many people living in too small of an area, with not enough air movement. Examples are the cities in China and the LA basin in California.
For those of you that say oh my stove is new it meets the standards I'm don't need to worry about it this doesn't concern me,
I hope that when our as savior government comes for something that is yours that someone is left to help you fight to preserve what's left of your rights.
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KSalzwedel
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# Posted: 14 May 2013 12:36
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All I know, is that my cat stove puts out no smoke, only steam. I didn't want woodsmoke hanging in the same woods I am walking in. The cat is more expensive, but keeps us toasty and clean. Some of the stoves in our area belch like the old coal burning plants. Yep, the oldies are prettier, but not as efficient.
That said, I agree there is an obsene amount of government control and nosiness where it doesn't belong.
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