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optimistic
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# Posted: 6 Feb 2013 08:42
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Hey
recap of my road issue: very wet area, 1200' road was cleared by excavator guy, un-accessible - only by foot or with my ATV...
When I go to my land - I park on the culvert stone in the entrance. The issue with that is that I am visible and neighbors will soon know when I am there and when not - which I don't like.
I wanted to make 200ft of road in (with stone) so I can park out of sight but again - prices for doing it by a local guys are crazy ($4000...).
Idea and question: I can order a huge pile (I think 25 ton) of stone from this quarry. They won't be able to go in much so let's assume they go in 10 ft beyond culvert and drop the load there. You think I can then slowly push the stone to make myself a road? Any options of utilizing my ATV for that?
Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
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bobbotron
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# Posted: 6 Feb 2013 09:44
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How wet are we talking? Swamp wet?
I think the idea is if you want something more permanent, you want to remove as much dirt/muck as possible, and replace it with something less sinky/compactible. Perhaps get someone with a backhoe/bull dozer or something to do this part for you - clear the area first to make their job easier.
As for moving the gravel, getting a cart/trailer your ATV could haul would be good for this, or someone mentioned dragging on plywood. You could make a plywood "sled" - dump the gravel on it, drag it to the dump site with ATV, unload, repeat...
Gravel is fairly cheap, you could just clear your road, spread a layer of gravel over it, and see how that goes, but if it's really wet ground it will probably eat your gravel (and tires) quickly.
This sounds like a good project for getting a bunch of friends to help out with, in exchange for beer, bbq etc. 
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bobbotron
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# Posted: 6 Feb 2013 09:49
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These links might be of use, I really like the first one.
http://www.maine.gov/dep/land/watershed/camp/road/gravel_road_manual.pdf
http://water.epa.gov/polwaste/nps/gravelroads_index.cfm
http://www.ruralhometech.com/RoadDrivewayMaintenance/TroubleshootingGuide/tabid/80/De fault.aspx
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VTweekender
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# Posted: 6 Feb 2013 10:10
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Opti, 25 ton is only about 25 yards, a usual tandem dump load is about 18-20 ton/yards, so whom ever is quoting you for 25 tons is quoting a little over one usual dump load....just making sense of that for you, as one tandem dump load won't go very far if you have to lay it in 10" deep or so, which is most likely the case...
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 6 Feb 2013 10:11
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Great links and just what I was looking for. Thanks, bobbotron! (even though I didn't start this thread)
Every time I see good info coming from .gov's and extension agencies I get excited that our government is actually making themselves useful! Except we only get back a dime worth of "good stuff" for every dollar of tax 
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Popeye
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# Posted: 6 Feb 2013 10:21
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What is the existing soil? Do you have any pictures?
There are many options available, it just comes down to cost. I agree with Bobbotron, stone placed directly on any soft material will not last.
By the way, 25 ton is NOT a huge pile and you wouldn't get very far with it.
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 6 Feb 2013 10:45
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Not to hijack, but I am looking at graveling a mile long access to our property. According to my calculations it looks like this could be a $50,000 endeavor. I may just seed the road and call it a day since we will really only visit it on weekends.
Are there cheaper graveling alternatives? Was I way off on my calculations?
Phil
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 6 Feb 2013 10:50
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Quoting: Popeye I agree with Bobbotron, stone placed directly on any soft material will not last.
Triple ditto
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 6 Feb 2013 10:57
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Great links and just what I was looking for. Thanks, bobbotron! (even though I didn't start this thread)
Every time I see good info coming from .gov's and extension agencies I get excited that our government is actually making themselves useful! Except we only get back a dime worth of "good stuff" for every dollar of tax
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TomChum
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# Posted: 6 Feb 2013 11:46 - Edited by: TomChum
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Quoting: optimistic prices for doing it by a local guys are crazy ($4000...).
A new gravel driveway will also alert the locals to possible building. But agreed your car should not be visible. And you need the driveway.
I would try to get a couple more quotes. If they are all coming in at $4k that should tell you a bit what the locals have experienced with regards to your soil. Are they coming out with equipment? Or just dumping rock?
You may need to use some fabric or some other method to reduce the amount of gravel. One thing to consider, this will be a driveway, it does not have to support continuous truck traffic, and I suppose they know that. I have a friend who laid used carpet in a trouble spot and gravelled over it. But that was one localized soft spot, and very inexpensive 'fix'.
Here I had to pay $6.75/ton, delivery is over 1 hours drive, and 40+miles one-way. One 2-load purchase was 18.5 tons for $124 + $175 delivery + tax = $325. That was about 20 yds, so $160 per 10yd truckload. I do NOT have the same situation as you - my road is firm, and gravel added does not sink in.
The quote is in tons, but you have to use yards to figure coverage. One dual axle truck is 10 yards, or possibly a 12 yard truck. So you can compare apples to apples, ask them "how much to deliver 10 yards". Find out if they have a discount for multiple loads, delivered on different days. It's feasible for a guy to spread 10 yards in a day. You sound young, you may be able to do more but if you're currently inactive (office worker) .....you could hurt yourself jumping into physical labor too fast. You could consider spreading one 10y load in one whole day (with breaks) THEN decide what your spread rate will be. Hurt your back or shoulder jumping into repetitive physical labor too fast and you may be done for the whole season at the first dumptruck.
You can't really spread gravel with an ATV, it will be faster with friends and a wheelbarrow. If your driveway is level you will find MOST of the work is in LOADING the WB. Don't waste energy shoveling up into the WB. You have to lay the wheelbarrow into the high pile, slide the rock downhill into the WB then tip the WB up. A higher pile is better. I was not able to find any vids on YouTube how to efficiently load a wheelbarrow except shovel-loads which is the wasteful method you use after the pile is flat. There are gas-powered wheelbarrows but you can't load them by tipping into the pile.
You can calculate how far 10 yards will go.
1 yard is 3ft cube = 3x3x3=27 cu ft.
10 yds is 270 cu ft.
If the thickness is 1/3 foot (4 inches) then 10yds will cover 270x(12/4) = 810 sq ft. At 8 feet wide a 10 yd load covers 324/8 = 101 feet each load. Then x12 loads..... ~ $2000
4" is nothing to mud. But 4" will allow you to go farther, and find the trouble spots. And your ATV might be fine on 4" in the meantime,,,, and the road might firm up in the summertime. 4" is risky, but it will tell you what you need to know without overspending on the firm areas.
If the thickness is 5/6ths foot (10 inches) then 10yds will cover 270x(6/5) = 324 sq ft. At 8 feet wide 10yds covers 324/8 = 40 feet X 30 loads ~ $4800
If delivery is half the cost, $4000 is not surprising to me especially if you can simply USE it within a few days. There will be benefits to having a usable driveway that you will save you time and money from day 1. For one example, your CAR, and TOOLS, and MATERIALS, parked next to your building site. To save money you have to add DIY and accept the difficulties of a substandard but affordable road. And accept the time losses you will experience due to a substandard road. You won't be the first nor the last, LOTS of people do it like that and it's not wrong, you do what you have to do. I personally cringe at the thought of spreading even 20 yds by hand but you are young.
What I would study (to save money)? Get a quote for MINIMUM thickness, & use your ATV on it this spring. Drive your car on it in the summer if it firms up. Then consider that you may have to add a couple truckloads to trouble spots (before it gets too soft to support a dumptruck in the fall). You might find that the savings are not significant. KNOWING that you are NOT getting ripped off is worth knowing.
Now is a good time to identify the areas where you will set drainage tile across the roadway.
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optimistic
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# Posted: 6 Feb 2013 12:44
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Gush I love this forum.... Some much great info! Thank you for that!
I called a local quarry. Prices: 18.75 a ton delivered for the 3-6" size. Minimum is 20 ton and they can deliver up to 28 on a single load.
Questions:
1. I was told by two locals that they start by putting large stone and then let it settle - then they add smaller stone (3/4" I think). Is that the right method or should I use other materials?
2. should I even bother with this right now when the ground is frozen? is it better to wait for it to defrost?
3. I saw that people use house wrap (I believe) which they lay down to cut on "mud eating your rock". Is that plausible?
4. Then from Tomchum figures, 10" thick, if they bring me 28 tons, which is about 30 yrds (maybe more?), I can make about 120 ft of road. If that's right - Its amazing!
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Popeye
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# Posted: 6 Feb 2013 13:03 - Edited by: Popeye
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If it was me, when the excavator was onsite doing other work, I would have a ditch dug the entire length of the driveway. I would use any and all of the excavated material from the site on the driveway to get it above the surrounding area and give it sufficient time to dry out. If it was still soft, I would place aggregate. If it was really soft in areas, I would use a geotextile blanket. It would require less aggregate in the long run. Of courese you never answered my question about what type of soils you have.
To answer your questions above:
1) you'll use more rock, but it will work
2) You never answered our questions. Is it wet year round?
3) Geotextile blanket is a much better choice
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TomChum
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# Posted: 6 Feb 2013 13:09
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Q1. I've never built my own road, but have happened upon roadbuilding numerous times and that's how it's done.
Q2. Ask the locals, (soon) they might require frozen ground
Q3. Fabric is used too but it will break down someday and will be like litter when you dig it up. I know it's done, don't have any idea how long it lasts but I would guess it to be a 20year solution. I don't know how 'repairable' it is if there is a 'problem'.
Q4 yes 30Y @ 10" = 120 feet
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Oilersfan
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# Posted: 6 Feb 2013 13:30
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For soft spots consider sourcing a geotextile fabic as others have mentioned. Depending on what you find you can get them for less than $5/m2 (CAN). A lot cheaper than fill. It will help bridge the soft spots. I doubt a weed control fabric will have the strength to use on the road but check with your local Home Depot, RONA, etc. In Canada we typically use Nilex and Armtec products. These products last a long time but confirm with the supplier.
I wouldn't worry too much about placing material on frozen ground. It might actually be better to place material in the swampy spots now versus when the ground is thawed. I have excavated and placed gravel for airport pavements in northern Canada using this method. Works great for dealing with swampy area and will be fine for a driveway application. Best to try to place gravel that isn't frozen. The gravel supplier should be able to pick through his stockpiles to get this...you will know if you have clumps of gravel stuck together.
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bobbotron
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# Posted: 6 Feb 2013 13:50
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Also, if you're going to put down gravel, I believe crushed gravel is better, as it's edges are sharper and they lock together when compacted. As opposed to river run gravel. I believe you want large rocks at the bottom, to act as a good base, the progressively lighter grades of gravel. There's a lot of info on this in those PDF's I posted, give them a good read.
Geotextile fabric can be used to firm up the base too.
Roads are expensive, especially if they have to remove a lot of soil and replace it with rocks and gravel.
You could maybe make a shorter 30' laneway for yourself in the meantime if you just want to hide the vehicles from the road? I've heard of people laying down sheets of plywood to get across short stretches of really soft ground. Kinda redneck, but might give you somewhere to park in the meantime?
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optimistic
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# Posted: 6 Feb 2013 14:24
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Thanks for the advice everyone.
The area is wet year around. There are a few spots where there is now standing water almost. It is now frozen but I think it will be pretty bad once it defrosts.
Photos from land:
http://s258.beta.photobucket.com/user/ubgone/library/cabin
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Just
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# Posted: 6 Feb 2013 15:15
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after seeing the pic's , I would remove all the wood and humas materal first then dig a shallow ditch [16 in. deep ] along at least one side of the road , pile the spoil in the middle of the road and leval it ,drive on that for at least 1 year. then next winter when it is frozen hard , have the stone spread on the frozen road .It looks to me like you will need some drainage along that road no mater how much stone you by ..
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Dekagoldwingers
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# Posted: 7 Feb 2013 11:27
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In our area there is good use made of Geotex fabrics. Thes come in large wide rolls designed for road building. The fabrics are entirely synthetic and don't break down over time. They are designed to allow water to seep through but spread support old. I know of several miles of highway, subject to very heavy and continuous olds that have existed for 25 years plus. You should be able to source the stuff in 10 wide rolls. Consider laying the fabric down in the mud and then laying 2 - 3" material in a 6" lift then top coating with fines 3/4" minus. This type of material could be moved with a power wheelbarrow if you had a small machine to fill it. This kind of road bed will easily support a car or small SUV even a pickup. Many years ago we built in this area with "courderoy" which was small cedar logs laid sideways and covered with road material. Same principle, different material. The Alaska highway had many,many miles of this.
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TomChum
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# Posted: 7 Feb 2013 12:07 - Edited by: TomChum
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I kind of like the geotex idea for the reason that I like a small, unobtrusive driveway. I like a pine-needle driveway that's quiet, has curves, and doesn't have the crunch of gravel. A big wide, raised, noisy, and straight roadway, is not part of __my__ cabin aesthetic although it may be OK for you. Low maintenance may be attractive too.
Anyway, consider the look and landscape that you want out of this. What's it like as you approach the cabin? This is going to be your experience each time you return to your retreat. A mudhole will not be something to look forward to but you will want the driveway to be a nice welcome. Are there any nearby driveways you can look at to guess what yours might be like after a few years?
If you can get all your building materials delivered while it's frozen that might be nice, then you can observe your roadway over a season. Even so I would not risk a heavy truck on that frozen ground - it could be only a few inches frozen. An experienced driver will know what to do (or not to do).
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bobbotron
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# Posted: 7 Feb 2013 12:09
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Someone else told me about the buried log idea for creating a road base. Geotex seems a lot less work, and holy cow that'd be a lot of dead tree.
I've never heard of a power wheelbarrow before, that is awesome.
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TomChum
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# Posted: 7 Feb 2013 14:03 - Edited by: TomChum
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Can rent a power wheelbarrow at Home Depot. One that loads itself would be nice. Also see http://grillo-eurosystems.com/grillodumper350pricing.htm
Quoting: bobbotron buried log idea
That's old school, logging when the only road-building material was other trees (and before there were trucks too). Those roads only needed to last long enough to get the trees out, but in some cases last for hundreds of years. It's still done in remote logging operations.
Opti I want to see videos of you hauling stuff in and out 
What has your co-driver done for YOU lately? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HKeNn4T3EY
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Oilersfan
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# Posted: 7 Feb 2013 20:44
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Looks like you could quite easily make a passable road once you deal with the drainage problems. Create some drainage cooridors to get the water away from your road if the grade allows. If you have to get drainage across the road dig a sloped trench 6" wide and add drain/washed rock (french drain). If you can dry out the road area your life will be much easier. Good luck.
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optimistic
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# Posted: 7 Feb 2013 21:59 - Edited by: optimistic
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Thanks for all the info!!!!
Tom - I bet you want to see me spread rock with a wheelbarrow over 200 ft 
Well first of all - I would love to have a 'natural' road... I am not sure if it is possible when it is this wet.
The beginning of the road is really bad. Which makes me think that I should experiment with that area with solutions come spring.
From what I gather here - I should put some textile fabric down on that 200ft start and make some drainage for the water. If that works good - awesome, if not then I will order some rock and spread it over it.
Any good guides on how to correctly and efficiently make drainage like that?
I haven't looked deep into those PDFs Bob posted but I believe they are for gravel roads construction. If I am wrong please let me know so I can look into them
BTW - will I be able to utilize this thing (in spring of course) for drainage ? http://www.homedepotrents.com/proTools/trencher_mini.asp?cm_sp=tool_rental-_-left_nav -_-trencher
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Just
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# Posted: 7 Feb 2013 22:35
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Quoting: optimistic Any good guides on how to correctly and efficiently make drainage like that
Hire a dozer as big as you can get 150$ an h 4 h one pass on each side of the lane pile the dirt in the middle of the road and 1 pass to leval it .do it now if it,s not frozen too hard.maybe put one load of stone on the first few ft of road but leave the rest for a year if u can ..stone or cloth will not work without draining the water first'.. IMO
600$ well spent
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optimistic
Member
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# Posted: 7 Feb 2013 22:39
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Never used a dozer. Not sure if it is smart for me play with.....
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Just
Member
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# Posted: 7 Feb 2013 23:04
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hire a dozer with operator, no sham in that !! I had 2300 ft of lane to put in ditch on one side 2 small bridges and a cut in the river bank took 6 hours best money i could have spent ,,,done ,,, still no gravel i need 300 ton. the road is usable on most days on the rest we walk or atv
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mikehu1966
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# Posted: 8 Feb 2013 10:38
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I would wait until the spring, and see how the water moves around the road in its current state, then I would add some french drains, to move the water away or across the road. After that see how well the dirst road holds up, then put down some gravel then crusher.
I will be doing the driveway thing sometime this spring as well.
Good Luck, keep us posted.
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TomChum
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# Posted: 8 Feb 2013 13:24 - Edited by: TomChum
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I would do some this winter and the rest in the spring.
Funny I have the exact same model trencher as the HomeDepot pic. It makes a 3 inch wide trench. It's for cables, waterpipe, kinda too small for drainage. You will have to widen that trench a little for any (usable) drainage tile, like minimum 4 inch. Widening a trench is MUCH easier than digging it by hand, for sure. It's not easy to double-cut, but anytime you can cut 16" into the ground it's easier than a shovel. It will give you grief at roots larger than 1/2" though. Be sure to bring an axe to chop those. Get a "Cutter Mattock" (like a pickaxe but has a cutter for cutting roots). Maybe HomeDepot has a 4" trencher.
Make sure your drainage tile is at a steady constant slope, like an inch every ten feet. If there are low spots that don't scour, they will fill with mud and it will be plugged in a few short years. There are benefits to using an open channel, it's easier to clean out, but you will have to cross under the road, and there I would use hard pipe.
Anyway you first need a place for the water to go. It looks like you dug some small ditches already, that's smart. Keep at it and find out where the water wants to go. French drains won't help you if they are below the 'winter water table' near your road.
A bulldozer, in my opinion is going to make a huge scar that won't heal for years, and every time he bumps a tree it's permanent. Also he may be inclined to make a straight cut direct to your cabin. I would leave trees and bushes to block the view, perhaps a very small bulldozer would work if the operator "understands". This is a small, recreational cabin, not a home. I think the look of the driveway is important.
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Oilersfan
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# Posted: 8 Feb 2013 14:22
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I still think small side swales to keep drainage away from the road and french drains to cross the road (where necessary) will provide a decent economical solution for what opti is looking for. If there is a lot of sediment you can wrap the frenchs drain with textile cloth so it remains free draining and doesn't become clogged with finer material. I wouldn't worry to much about putting the drain below the frost line for this application. The drain might be frozen for a little bit in the spring but you aren't using the road every day. Find a easy and simply way to move the water away from the road and you will be fine without bringing in loads of gravel.
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Rob_O
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# Posted: 8 Feb 2013 15:32
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Quoting: Anonymous According to my calculations it looks like this could be a $50,000 endeavor. Was I way off on my calculations?
Depends on how well you want to build your driveway and the local cost of gravel. I'm using the geotextile fabric and laying the rock thick and rough calculations put me in the $8-10K for 1/4 mile of driveway. I'm building a full time residence so I need it to last under regular use
Quoting: optimistic The beginning of the road is really bad. Which makes me think that I should experiment with that area with solutions come spring. From what I gather here - I should put some textile fabric down on that 200ft start and make some drainage for the water. If that works good - awesome, if not then I will order some rock and spread it over it.
Fix the drainage to get rid of the water. Fabric goes under the big rock, then smaller rock on top.
If you ask your excavator guy he may know a Bobcat guy who can do the grading work you need without having to hire a big dozer. I'd do the grading this year, let it settle and lay rock next year. If the grading is done properly it will drain well enough that you will be able to park out of sight and although it may be slick you won't get your little "city suv" stuck axle deep in mud
I thought I had my road ready for gravel this year but the last big storm proved me wrong and cut some major ruts in what I thought was a well packed surface... back to the drawing board!
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