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DLMcBeath
Member
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# Posted: 25 Jan 2010 17:47
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I'm trying to decide rather or not to put the wood stove back in my cabin. I have three rooms to heat roughly 500 sqft. I was also considering a wall mounted propane heater. When we had the wood stove in someone stole all of our firewood and I really hate the thought of cutting firewood for someone else (unless I'm getting paid for it). I have heard the propane heaters really go through the gas. Does anyone use these heaters to heat their cabin? If so, can you give me some advice?
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lunarkingdom
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# Posted: 14 Feb 2010 20:09
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I have one of these in my rv i installed after i got it used on ebay, i use it every night from 12am till 8-9am on high and it uses about 3-4 gallons a week but mind you i like it toasty, you could fire it up on high till the house got warm then turn it to med or low, my camper is like 9x17 feet with a few holes i need to plug. I only use it from mid december until end of february so about 10 weeks a year it is used at 4 gallons a week thats 40 gallons a winter at 3.50 a gallon is 140.00 a year to keep warm. they also have a bigger one that is 4200-7600 BTU adjustable output its caslled the wave 8.
Olympian Heater Wave 6
3200-5800 BTU adjustable output
1/4 lb./hr. fuel consumption
230 square feet of heated comfort (approx.)
Size: 17 7/8" H x 12 13/16" W x 4" D
Weight: 12 lbs
Can be wall mounted vertically or horizontally
Can be mounted recessed with optional kit.
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larry
Member
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# Posted: 25 Feb 2010 20:52
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i'm sorry to hear you have a f#@$ing thief in your area. i love wood heat because it will warm you twice, once when you cut it and again when you burn it. and don't forget about the smell of a wood fire. i say find your thief and hang'em! good luck in you choice
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 26 Feb 2010 15:08
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I have a wall propane heater in our bedroom. Heats the whole back of the house it sits on low setting and we run it all winter. 4 gl a week .. more iffin its really cold. not bad and sure nice to have the back part of our house warm in the winters...
HOWEVER .
I just saw on the news where they found a couple dead in there Camper at a near by atv park. they had one of those ventless heaters. Saw a post that said if you value waking up in the mornigs.
DO install one of those in a area where people sleep !!!!
so far I am not dead,, But I sure have worried about it after that story?
What do you guys think?
all our grand parents had a deerborn ventless heater for many many many years.. the lived thru it!
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Merc63
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# Posted: 26 Mar 2010 17:25
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A "ventless heater" still requires airflow. Sealed modern homes don't have much if you close the bedroom door, and if you're using a heater with more than 10k BTU in a space smaller than about 10x12 (a typical bedroom) with a closed door and nowhere for air to get in, then yeah, you'll use up the oxygen AND fill up the room with CO. Same if you use it in a typical 19-25 ft RV with all the windows closed up tight.
The thing to remember is ventilation. I have an 18k BTU propane furnace in my RV and you can run it all night with no worries. My folks use a ventless 25k BTU propane heaters (one of those ProCom things) in their living room (where an old cast iron stove used to sit) in an open 800 square foot single floor house and it heats up the whole place. But since it's open space, it can draw in air from everywhere and then circulate it with a ceiling fan. I've used portable ventless 5k btu propane heaters in RVs for years with no problems, with the simple caveat of making sure there's a way for fresh air to get in, CO to get out (and it's minute amounts) and a good CO detector.
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munkyfst
Member
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# Posted: 26 Sep 2010 01:56
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I cannot stress this enough...VENT your propane heater. I'm an EMT, and it's amazing how lifelike people look when they die from CO poisoning, the blood prefers CO over O2, so you still look "cherry cheeked" but still dead as a doornail.
Open a window, or get a small pass thru wall vented heater, cost more but funerals cost even more. Don't use those little cat-back heaters you get at camping stores, they burn up more O2 than give out heat in a large space. Get a CO/Fire detector for your cabin/rv. Works wonders for your peace of mind, except when it goes off at 2am in the middle of a snowstorm, I speak from experience there lol.
And personally I think old people run on less oxygen than me, it's why they still hang around haha.
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munkyfst
Member
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# Posted: 26 Sep 2010 01:58
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On another note, i'm from back east and we used to use Kerosene heaters for supplemental heating, I don't mind the smell but some people do, if you use them they must be vented someway too. Most houses that are older back east are drafty anyways so it's not such a problem.
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hebegbz
Member
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# Posted: 27 Sep 2010 11:14
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If you don't use a vented heater, besides the safety issue. You will turn your walls black from soot.
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 21 Oct 2010 14:42 - Edited by: MtnDon
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Not to belabor the point, but I am a firm believer in the theory that people and ventless heaters do not mix well, unless the structure is drafty. A properly installed direct vent heater is the only safe way to go. Safe as in never having to worry about waking up in the morning.
We have a direct vent wall heater (housewarmer from Northern Tool) that works with and without the air blower. As well we have a wood burning stove (Vermont Castings Aspen)
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islandguy
Member
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# Posted: 21 Oct 2010 21:03
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We use a kerosene heater, 23,000 btus, which is ul listed to operate without venting. It burns clean and odourless, but we follow the instructions, which is NEVER sleep with the unit on. This can be a problem in cold weather, but we dont want to take chances. We wake up early on cold mornings, and one of us, ME, fires up the heater. We also have a wood stove, but havnt installed it yet. Once the wood stove is installed, the kerosene heater will be used as back-up heat.
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 24 Oct 2010 21:02
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Avoid Unvented Gas Heaters
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bobrok
Member
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# Posted: 2 Nov 2010 19:46
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We have a ventless propane radiant heather and I run it at night on low even when we visit our cabin in the dead of winter (like zero outside). We keep a CO2 detector with a fresh set of batteries and two windows on opposite sides of the cabin open about 2 inches at the top. Enough so that I can feel a down draft of outside air coming in. The tipping point for concern with CO2 is, I believe, about 300 PPM, at least according to the manual. We get to perhaps 100 +/- PPM on the readout. If you are aware and monitor your situation you shouldn't have a problem.
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 2 Nov 2010 20:50
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If you are getting readings of 100 ppm and continue to live and sleep in that space with those levels you are courting disaster or get a personal thrill from living on the edge. If the meter is accurate most people will develop headaches and sore eyes at levels between 70 and 100 ppm. It can feel like the flu coming on.
Even with 50 ppm some healthy adults will develop symptoms after 8 hours of exposure. 150 to 300 ppm make people sick; serious headaches, dizziness, drowsiness and vomiting. 400 ppm and higher can cause brain damage and unconsciousness leading to death.
CO in the blood replaces oxygen. Low oxygen in the blood is debilitating to body cells, brain cells and all the other cells in your body. It's slow poison at low levels and quicker poison at high levels. Pure and simple as that.
Why risk death or damage to your brain and body in general with a so called ventless heater. There's really no such thing as a ventless appliance. Exhaust is simply spilled into the room so it can be breathed. Exhaust does not belong in your house, cabin, room or garage.
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bobrok
Member
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# Posted: 3 Nov 2010 08:32
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MtnDon:
I appreciate your concern and explanation. I should clarify that 100 PPM is about the highest we've registered and not the norm. Usually in the range of 20-40 PPM...and we open the door a lot to exchange air in addition to cracking the windows. We don't live there; it's a camp that sees little use in the winter, but we do try to get there to enjoy the winter beauty.
Nevertheless, I realize it takes only one malfunction to kill yourself and against that I am on guard. Thanks.
BTW, I agree with you on the ventless thing. What exactly is the diff between a vented and ventless appliance other than the obvious. What about a kitchen stove that is not vented. Is it the amount of on-time (actual combustion time while being used, assuming the heater is being used more than the stove)?
Thanks for your insight.
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bobrok
Member
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# Posted: 3 Nov 2010 08:35
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Quoting: munkyfst I cannot stress this enough...VENT your propane heater
Is there a way to retrofit a ventless radiant heater?
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 3 Nov 2010 10:37 - Edited by: MtnDon
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Ventless vs vented. Another unmentioned as yet difference is that the direct vent type also draw their combustion air from the exterior. They do not use air from inside the cabin. CO is not the only concern, oxygen depletion is another. Combine the two and you end up with lower blood oxygen levels and that leads to decreased brain performance. Permanent damage? I don't know, but if there's a chance of that why take big chances. Maybe you are very conscientious in keeping windows cracked open, that's good, because without that vigilance people get sick, people die.
BUT. CO is classed as a poison. Hemoglobin has a preference for CO over O2. Once CO bonds with the cells it is hard to dislodge. People with acute CO poisoning sometimes can not even be saved when given pure oxygen as there is nothing in the blood for the O2 to bond to and be carried to the rest of the body.
Off topic; CO is used in the meat packing industry. Meat is exposed to it. It picks up CO even in the dead form and increases the bright red color that makes use think "fresh". It is also used in industry as a fuel.
Gas fueled ranges are not considered a problem as heaters usually run much longer, cycling on and off all day and have burners rated much higher in BTU's than ranges. We also use a range hood that vents outside just to be safe. Plus our two CO monitors virtually never record any CO at all. The meters sit at zero right now. The last time it recorded a reading was in spring when the propane fridge was lit after being off all winter. I had not cleaned the burner and the winters accumulation of dust reduced the efficiency of the burn. I hit a reading of 20 ppm. After cleaning the CO production was no more. Now the fridge has direct vents to the outside, exhaust and intake both.
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 3 Nov 2010 10:55
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From scienceclarified.com
Scientists now know how carbon monoxide poisoning occurs. Normally, oxygen is transported from the lungs to cells by means of red blood cells. This process occurs when oxygen atoms bond to an iron atom in the middle of a complex molecule known as oxyhemoglobin. Oxyhemoglobin is a fairly unstable molecule that breaks down to release free oxygen and hemoglobin for use by the body's cells. The oxygen is then available to carry out reactions in cells from which the body gets energy.
If carbon monoxide is present in the lungs, this sequence of reactions is disrupted. Carbon monoxide bonds with iron in hemoglobin to form carbonmonoxyhemoglobin, a complex somewhat similar to oxyhemoglobin. Carbonmonoxyhemoglobin, however, is a more stable compound than oxyhemoglobin. When it reaches cells, it has little tendency to break apart; instead, it continues to circulate in the bloodstream in its bound form. As a result, cells are unable to obtain the oxygen they need for energy production, and the symptoms of carbon monoxide poisoning begin to appear.
Carbon monoxide poisoning—at least at moderate levels—is so common in everyday life that carbon monoxide detectors, similar to smoke alarms, are found in many businesses and homes. Poorly ventilated charcoal fires, improperly installed gas appliances, and exhaust from automobiles and trucks are the most common sources of the gas. In fact, levels of carbon monoxide in the air can become dangerously high in busy urban areas that have large numbers of cars and trucks. Cigarette smokers may also be exposed to harmful levels of the gas. Studies have shown that the one-to-two pack-a-day smoker may have up to 7 percent of the hemoglobin in her or his body tied up in the form of carbonmonoxyhemoglobin.
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LakeSuperior5
Member
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# Posted: 3 Nov 2010 13:14
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In the cabin we are building we purchased a vented wall mounted heater
We currently are staying in our camper on weekends while building. We have a big buddy heater that we use just to warm it up a touch and never sleep with it on. This heater states it has a sensor on it but I do not feel safe. One morning we had the heater on and I wanted to make coffee. Lit a match and it went out. Tried again and the match still went out. Opened the door to get air inside and my match stayed lit. That was my confirmation that ventless is not safe and that it was depleting the oxygen in the camper.
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Xplorer
Member
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# Posted: 3 Nov 2010 16:48 - Edited by: Xplorer
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read this 5 days too late. I just installed a 15k btu ventless in my cabin :-( Someone had asked about converting it to vented above, but no responce. Is there a way? Both gables are vented & open from inside. I know heat rises, does CO? Hunting season starts in 3.5 weeks & really need a way to heat the place.
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 3 Nov 2010 17:01 - Edited by: MtnDon
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CO (carbon monoxide, the really dangerous stuff) is very slightly lighter than O2.* So that theoretically would make it rise. Also as a product of combustion it will rise along with the rest of the heated air. However, in reality there is so little difference it will readily diffuse throughout the room with the slightest of movement. If there is CO present it is fair to assume it will be fairly evenly distributed. Floor level is basically no safer than ceiling level.
Whether or not it would be possible to retrofit a heater with exterior venting, I'm not sure how practical or easy it would be. Maybe some heaters would be easy enough for the inventive mind. A unit built as a direct vent uses two concentric tubes or ducts. The inner one is the exhaust vent. The outer one is the fresh air intake. Incoming cool air surrounds the hot exhaust duct as a safety thing. The combustion chamber is totally isolated from the interior air.
* CO is slightly lighter (28amu) than O2 (32amu) which comprises about 21% of air and of equal mass to N2 (28amu) which comprises pretty much all of the remaining 79%
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bobrok
Member
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# Posted: 3 Nov 2010 17:17
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MtnDon, does a vented heater such as you are describing require a power source or fan to move the air? Your description of a sealed combustion chamber leads me to believe that is the case.
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 3 Nov 2010 17:54
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A direct vent heater like the ones I have installed do not require any power to operate. Mine is this one. It is made by Empire. It does have a 120 VAC blower to aid in distributing the heat throughout the room, but even that is not necessary to operate.
There are direct vent heaters such as the furnaces found in RV's that require a power source to operate. The typical RV furnace has one motor driving a pair of fans. One fan circulates air through the coach and the other fan blows air through the combustion system. The furnace in my home is similar.
The wall heater probably does not require a combustion fan because the vent ducts are much larger than those on the RV furnaces. That's a guess.
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islandguy
Member
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# Posted: 3 Nov 2010 20:58
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Just to clarify, combustion with a good supply of oxygen produces much less carbon monoxide and particulate. The depletion of oxygen in the room isnt a seperate threat. The danger is in the INCOMPLETE combustion that results from oxygen depletion, which results in far higher levels of gases and soot, byproducts of incomplete combustion, including CO, which, if not already mentioned, is odourless and tasteless.
On a similar note, I was surprised to find propane is non-toxic. The danger from a leak is the obvious potential for an explosion, not toxicity, although replacing oxygen with propane in your bloodstream is not likely to have a very happy ending either.
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bobrok
Member
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# Posted: 3 Nov 2010 21:20
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I just posted earlier in another thread about my experience with this with my propane fridge malfunction. That was scary. The CO2 detector reading was at around 700+ when we opened the door. Took a couple of hours to clear the place.
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hebegbz
Member
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# Posted: 3 Nov 2010 21:52
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I went for one winter with a couple of unvented heaters for my cabin. I had the usual CO and smoke alarms for safety. They kept us from being cold, but I figured that I used at least 100 lbs of propane for the heaters, not counting about 40 lbs for cooking.
If you think about it, if you burn all that propane, even if it's efficient and doesn't make too much CO, it makes a whole lot of soot and water vapor. You can't see it, cause it's superheated and dissapates as fast as it's created, but it will coat every surface of your room with a black film. At first we thought it was fine dirt that was accumulating on our walls and ceiling exactly where the studs and rafters were behind the sheet rock. Then we realized that it was the soot from the heaters. Another issue with unvented heaters is water vapor. You want to avoid excess water vapor inside your living area for the most part, and they make a lot of water vapor.
Now the good part.
You can get vented wall heaters that are as easy to install as cutting a couple of holes in your wall. They run on propane or natural gas and don't need any electricity at all.
Of course they also have thermostats.
I have used a 14kbtu that I paid $500 for for a couple of years and recently picked up a 22kbtu from a different company for only $300. The larger unit dropped right in the same cutout and is working perfectly. I'll use the old one for my workshop and sell the blower that came with the new one, because you don't really need them since they convect their heat very well without a fan. And anyway I'm not on the grid.
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northof63
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2010 15:41
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hebegbz
Hi what brand(s) of vented propane heaters are you using and which do you favour?
thanks
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hebegbz
Member
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# Posted: 11 Dec 2010 23:17
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I used a Williams 14K from Home Depot for last winter and it worked great. I thought I had a problem with it and they sent me out a $40 part to fix it for free, but it was just a problem with the regulator on the tank. I am currently using a Cozy 22K that I bought on Craigslist for $300.(new/$700+) It works even better cause it's bigger, but it can sure use propane.
They both appear to be made by the same mfgr even though they are different brands. (sort of like garage door openers)
I was able to remove the smaller unit and install the larger without any modifications.
Both units work without electricity, are vented and are almost silent.
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PlicketyCat
Member
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# Posted: 16 Dec 2010 23:43
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We currently use unvented propane and kerosene heaters as supplementary heat when the woodstove is not enough... but we live in a tent that is anything but airtight. We will be installing a vented wall mount heater in our cabin (either direct vent propane or drip oil with a flue or vented powered oil if we can afford the electricity). Again, that's only for supplementary heat if it's really cold, or when we have to let the stove go cold to sweep the chimney or when we're going to be away from home. Even with a vented/chimney heater, you still should have a CO2 detector and at least one point of positive ventilation next to the device (a window or even just a small vent).
I haven't found anyway to convert a nonvented heater to a vented heater. The best you can do is provide for some ventilation near the unit to provide fresh combustion air and help disperse any combustion gases... a small vent at floor level beneath the appliance and another directly above it would provide decent ventilation with producing too much of a draft, but you'd lose a bit of heat that way. Best to sell the unvented one and put the money towards a vented one when you build the cabin.
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Skip
Member
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# Posted: 26 Dec 2010 14:34
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I'm on my second winter with a Mr. Heater "Big Buddy" heater in my 12 X 16 hunting cabin. It is a ventless heater. This company also makes wall-mount heaters of similar design.
http://www.mrheater.com/product.aspx?catid=41&id=116
It's equipped with a low-oxygen shut-off pilot safety, as well as a tip-over auto shut-off. Despite that, I still like to leave a window cracked open. Although fully insulated, the cabin is by no means 100% air-tight, either.
I also have a smoke and carbon monoxide detector, which I test at the beginning of each stay.
From the manual:
"This is an unvented gas-fired portable heater. It uses air (oxygen) from the area in which it is used. Adequate combustion and ventilation air must be provided."
"This heater is safe for indoor use in small recreational enclosures, having means for providing combustion air and ventilation, such as enclosed porches, cabins, fishing huts, trailers, tent trailers, tents, truck caps and vans."
It has three settings that let you adjust the heat from 4,000, to 9,000 or 18,000 BTUs/hr.
Our cabin is fully insulated, and will stay at 68-70 degrees inside all night on the low setting when it's 35 degrees outside. That's with a 10/12 roof pitch and a loft.
This heater can be placed on the floor, or mounted to the wall.
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hebegbz
Member
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# Posted: 26 Dec 2010 20:30
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Even if you are completely safe, with sensors and alarms, and cracks and everything. Calculate the number of pounds of fuel that you are burning into the air that you are breathing. Even propane makes lots of soot and water vapor, neither one is good in your living space. You can't see it, but it's there.
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