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1300_stainless
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2014 15:55 - Edited by: 1300_stainless
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I'll start with some background information. I'm building a small 10x10. It's currently not insulated. I am trying to decide on a heating solution for winter use. I see a lot of great options (like direct vent propane) that would work great, but are over my budget and cost more than half of what my entire build has. The smallest empire DV is over $1000 in my neck of the woods. Electric is not an option.
I thought I had decided on a small wood stove but looking at what it would take and cost to properly install a flue, maintain proper clearances and a keep a consistent comfortable temperature that idea is losing it's appeal as well.
I have a Mr. Heater Little Buddy vent free radiant propane heater. I used this heater in a truck camper last winter. It provided good heat, however it also filled the camper with moisture so badly it dripped from the ceiling. I also woke up through the night with a splitting headache. All of this occurred with windows opened and a Co2 alarm installed. I have used it in an un-insulated, shed similar to my 10x10 without issues but not for as long of a time. People were also constantly in and out so the door was open a lot. It seems that the model I have isn't even legal in Canada anymore. I could always try it since I already have it, but given past experiences I am leery.
I am wondering if anyone has experience using a kerosene heater in an application like this. Should this be an option I consider? I understand ventilation is still important. Would kerosene produce less moisture than a vent free radiant? Is one considered better than the other for indoor use? (My little buddy has disclaimers labeling it for outdoor use while still advertising it can be used in the home  )
EDIT anyone used the Nu-way vented propane heater? It's looking like a good option.
Any insight would be appreciated.
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VC_fan
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2014 17:14
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Our shack is 16 x 20 with a half-loft so it's essentially one two story room. It's very well insulated everywhere except the floor (those darn varmints). I find the kerosene heater very satisfactory but I never go to bed with it on because I'm always there by myself and want to be overly cautious. When it's cold I heat the place up and then shut it down when I turn in and crack the window by my bed. True, I knew a lot of people growing up who heated with them 24/7 without issues but those were usually drafty old houses. I start it and shut it down outside and find there's essentially zero odor. It puts out a lot of heat so even before it heats up the room you can hover over it to get warm. I think you'll find it's an excellent affordable solution as long as you use it like you've got some common sense.
I've never noticed any moisture issues but I'm not there that much when it's super cold.
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naturelover66
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2014 17:43
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The fumes from those heaters are terrible... I would never use one.
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beachman
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2014 18:01
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I think VC has it right. Light the unit and shut it down outside. Otherwise, the fumes will drive you out. They can be good to heat a small space but will consume oxygen while on. You have to be careful in moving the lighted appliance in and out. If you have to crack a window, it might defeat the heating purpose.
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groingo
Member
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2014 18:24
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Were it me I would invest in insulating the shed which will reduce your need for heat especially on that small of shed t would go a long way.
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Salty Craig
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2014 22:16
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The moisture wasn't from propane heat, but rather it was condensation from warm air inside being in contact with a cold wall. Insulation acts as a barrier to keep the two separate. A kerosene heater will produce identical results. I know from experience. As far as the thing to do? Insulate, insulate, and insulate. The first winter that my cabin was framed, we spent several nights before it was insulated,and it dripped like a rain forest. My opinion on kerosene? I still use it to this day. I have a small wood stove. Slow to heat up, then ya fry. My cabin is so well insulated, that a candle and a few loudmouth friends can keep it warm. As far as fumes? We light it inside, but snuffing it out side is preferred. That's when they fume. We turn it real low at night and leave it lit. Still alive!!! I wish you good luck and countless camping trips.
Salty**
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2014 22:55 - Edited by: bldginsp
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I vote for the more expensive route, insulate and instal the smallest direct vent propane wall heater you can find. The peace of mind you'll have with that years on will mean a lot, and the memory of scraping together the cash will fade. You sure they cost $1000? Seems I've seen the little ones for $5-600
Check this one, under $500 before shipping:
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200631837_200631837
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2014 23:13
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If you insulate and air seal well you can do with low amounts of heat and also be cooler in the summer.
Check Northern Tool for Housewarmer direct vent eall heaters.
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Jim in NB
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# Posted: 26 Aug 2014 06:26
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MY two cents - insulate - well worth it for controlling moisture let alone reducing the amount of heat you have to produce to keep your place cosy. My shack is 24x32 and I heat it with one kerosene heater - works really well. I light and shut down out of doors. Grew up with a kerosene heater at my parent's cottage so the odour is nostaligic! I find kerosene an easy heat - not a lot of lugging, constant restocking of the stove and the 5 gallon pails make excellent containers for the composting toilet!
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1300_stainless
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# Posted: 26 Aug 2014 07:34 - Edited by: 1300_stainless
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Thanks for the input guys, keep it coming.
Salty oddly enough, I seem to have had opposite results. The camper I used the heater in and had moisture problems was insulated, and the shed I have used it in problem free is un-insulated. I thought perhaps it was a ventilation thing and the camper had less fresh air coming in.
I am in Canada. So when you factor in the $, shipping costs, possible duyt, etc for the direct vent it's only a bit less than $1000. So in that case I'd rather buy it locally in the event I need parts or service.
I do plan to insulate in the future however I don't think I'll have the time or cash to do so this winter. The camp isn't even finished yet. I figure insulation or not I will need a heat source so I could spend the money on that this year. It won't be as efficient without insulation, but I will have it.
Anyone used the Nu-Way vented propane heaters? They are affordable and look like an easy install. I've found a Canadian dealer and I've kind of started leaning that way.
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JDPugh
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# Posted: 26 Aug 2014 09:12
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Somewhere I read that burning 1 gallon of propane puts 0.81 gallons of moisture in the air. I had vent free gas logs and noticed a thin hazy film built up on all my windows when I used them regularly. Closer they were to logs the heavier the film. Made me a bit concerned about what I was collecting in my lungs so I used them only if power went out.
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1300_stainless
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# Posted: 26 Aug 2014 12:21 - Edited by: 1300_stainless
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I just made the decision on the Nu-way vented propane heater.
http://www.nuwaystove.com/model4000.php
Called the Canadian dealer and it seems like what I'm looking for. Many people use them in canvas wall tents so no insulation isn't a huge deal. It's within my budget and it's vented. Should get me through this season and next year I can insulate and save some propane.
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creeky
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# Posted: 26 Aug 2014 13:09
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I got the 8k unit from northerntool for 375. on sale. shipping inc. during black friday sale. which is coming up. easy install too. everything's included. pipe etc.
kerosene heaters are cheap. but man. they stink. you'll be starting them outside and then bringing them in. plus kerosene adds up in cost.
those nu-wavs look cool. anybody use one? that's a neat little wood stove they've got. and cheap.
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1300_stainless
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# Posted: 26 Aug 2014 13:18
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Unfortunately free shipping on US websites rarely extends to Canadian residents, if they even ship here. Factor that, the dollar exchange, brokerage, etc and things start to rapidly increase in price.
Ordered the Nu-Way this afternoon. Under $400 Canadian to my door. Most reviews I found on the net were favorable. Seems the company has been around a while and the heaters hold up well.
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razmichael
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# Posted: 26 Aug 2014 13:29
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Quoting: 1300_stainless It's within my budget and it's vented.
1300, never used one but just looked at the site and the price seems great. Only because I was initially confused (happens often), I will mention that these are vented, not direct vented. You need to add a suggested 6" hole in the building to allow air in for the combustion (IAW the manual). Not suggestion there is anything wrong with this - just checking. Again, sorry if this is obvious.
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1300_stainless
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# Posted: 26 Aug 2014 13:43
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I did see that in the manual but it's worth pointing out as I don't think it's in the general description. Thanks.
I'll likely have a window cracked most times in the camp. I also may add some small permanently open vents above the roof trim (to shield them from wind). I've had sheds and camps with mold and ventilation issues before so I'm pretty anal about making sure fresh air can flow. At this time the camp isn't air tight either.
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creeky
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# Posted: 26 Aug 2014 15:43
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1300. i'm only 25 minutes from the border. i ship to a dept and pick up.
as we all see here. a camp/cabin build starts at one point. admittedly not perfect but within the budget. we're all there. been there. and then you grow.
everyone will tell you what worked best for them.
so. I was able to get insulation really cheap. if your heating, spend money on insulation. it pays back real quick.
in comfort first and foremost but big time in dollars too.
and raz is right on. direct vent saves on hassle in the long run. when it gets cold, canada cold, your desire to crack a window is going to shrink faster than ... well. almost anything. 
there have been a tonne of posts for folks looking for inexpensive heaters and these nu-w have never come up. looking forward to seeing how it works out.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 26 Aug 2014 16:02
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1300- the Nu-Ways look like a good alternative for small cabins. The one you linked to is 27000btus, their smallest is 12000btus, which I bet is more than enough for a 10x10. An 8000btu Housewarmer is rated for 200 square feet or more. But I don't have direct experience with these things. Tell us how it works out.
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1300_stainless
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2014 13:43
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I probably did go above and beyond what I need for BTUs. It's a dual burner model though and you can light one burner at a time. Since its light and portable getting the biggest unit seemed like a good plan in the event I come up with an alternate use for it in the future. Plus the price difference wasn't all that much between it and the smallest model.
I've been researching my heat situation for months now. I found out about the company somewhere online when I was researching small wood stoves, as they make a small wood burner as well. (perhaps a good option for some people on the forum). A lot of people are using them in wall tents as well as hunting and fishing shanties. Anyone who has one seems pleased. Since my camp is closer to a shanty in its current state it seemed like a good fit.
I will likely insulate next year and can always upgrade to a direct vent in the future, but neither was in the cards for this year. I understand that the lowest price isn't always the best value but sometimes even $100 is the difference between what's obtainable and what isn't with this project. In fact I had to sell one of my shotguns just to get this heater. This cabin/camp took a lot of scrounging dough for me, but it's also important to me.
I appreciate the helpful input everyone. I'm pretty excited to see how well it works. It's coming from a few provinces away so it will be a few weeks before it even arrives. I will try to post updates as things progress so that maybe I can help someone else in my situation. 
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Salty Craig
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# Posted: 28 Aug 2014 22:21
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Quoting: 1300_stainless This cabin/camp took a lot of scrounging dough for me, but it's also important to me.
That's the spirit. Things we love are worth a few sacrifices. You show a lot of passion for your cabin. I feel much the same. I sold my boat 4 years ago to build my cabin. That was only enough to get the shell up. The interior is nearly complete 4 years later because I'm doing it all with cash. I live in a mortgage when I'm at home and don't want the cabin to feel like debt.
Carry on Brother!
Salty C&@!g
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Beausoleil
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# Posted: 28 Aug 2014 23:30
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I am in Canada too. My daughter's family has used a pellet stove for many years in a mobile home. You still need proper installation and flue to code so your insurance will accept it. It is better than a wood stove since you don't have to feed it so often and you don't send a lot of heat up the chimney. The pellets are cheaper than propane too. If you want more information, I can get details from them.
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