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DLMcBeath
Member
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# Posted: 28 Nov 2014 12:32
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Guys, I'm really racking my brain (what little I have) anyway, I have a brand new wall mounted ventless propa in heater that I was going to install, but with all the safety concerns I'm afraid of it. I have an old boxwood stile wood stove that was in the cabin originally I took out when I put a new roof on it. My question is since the wood stove isn't sealed very well wouldn't it put off just as much carbon monoxide as the wall heater? Which one do you think would be safest?
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groingo
Member
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# Posted: 28 Nov 2014 13:30
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Any combustion appliance has certain risks.
With your wood stove just be sure you have a window cracked open to let fresh air in, same with propane.
Know the symptoms of Monoxide poisoning.
I never leave either on while sleeping.
Pick up a blood oxygen meter, they just attach to your finger and tell what the oxygen level is in your blood.
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Just
Member
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# Posted: 28 Nov 2014 13:38
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the wood heater is much safer as long as it is vented properly ,the vent less heater is never safe unless its outside .
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 28 Nov 2014 14:19
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All the new ventless propane heaters have Co2 detectors & shutoffs in them. Don't use one unless it does. I was looking at the Catalytic ones now available but they haven't been approved in Canada yet as they are still under certification testing.
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razmichael
Member
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# Posted: 28 Nov 2014 17:09
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Quoting: Steve_S All the new ventless propane heaters have Co2 detectors & shutoffs in them.
There have been multiple threads on this (and other sites) regarding ventless propane heaters so the only thing I'll mention is that they have Low Oxygen sensors not CO sensors. Yes, if the oxygen level is too low, it is very likely that the CO level is too high but they are not the same thing. Use a CO detector - do not rely on the built in Low Oxygen Sensor to save your (or your families) life.
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 28 Nov 2014 20:11
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Thanks for the correction / clarification Razmicheal, it's been a while since I looked at those. ALWAYS have a Co2 Detector in any place your burning wood, propane or ... same with smoke detectors etc... Lives cannot be replaced.
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toyota_mdt_tech
Member
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# Posted: 28 Nov 2014 20:35
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I have a CO and smoke detector (all in one unit) in my cabin. I have a trash burner style woodstove and no CO issues yet.
I wouldnt use either without a CO and smoke detector installed.
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bldginsp
Member
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# Posted: 28 Nov 2014 21:54
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McBeath- a properly operating woodstove should not put out CO even if it is loose, because it is sucking air into itself and sending it out the flu. A loose stove is harder to regulate for heat because you can't limit the air intake enough to slow it down, unless you damper it so much that it backflows in which case you will notice it and work to change it. You won't notice CO from a ventless propane heater.
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DLMcBeath
Member
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# Posted: 29 Nov 2014 10:00
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Thanks for all the advice, I just want to be able to sleep in my cabin without worrying about not waking up.
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bldginsp
Member
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# Posted: 29 Nov 2014 18:29
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What it boils down to is that the ventless heaters SHOULD not produce enough CO or NO3 or whatever to harm you, otherwise they could not have passed tests in order to be able to sell the things. Still, some people complain about headaches when they use them. And, if for any reason something goes wrong with the unit, it can start cranking out large amounts of CO. Small chance of that happening, but if it does, your family collects the life insurance.
I would only use these things when I am awake, and in a ventilated space like a garage or workshed, not in a closed cabin, and certainly not when/where I sleep. IMHO
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SubArcticGuy
Member
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# Posted: 29 Nov 2014 18:48
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A wood stove is vented and if setup properly should have enough draft to pull the fumes outside. Nonvented propane scares the hell out of me and I would never use it. We used to use one in a 8'x12' insulated ice fishing hut while conducting water sampling until we brought a gas detector out with us (a proper one that measures CO, not just an alarm). After that we stopped using the non-vented and had to buy a large propane forced air specialty unit.
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MI drew
Member
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# Posted: 30 Nov 2014 20:06 - Edited by: MI drew
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Here's my ventless heater. On level 2 keeps my 14x28 at 68. I have 2 smoke and 2 carbon monoxide detectors. The highest reading on the one was 16ppm and that was with the heater on high and the propane stove on (just got up north and kids wanted hot coco). Vented,ventless, and wood heat just need to be sized right, used correctly, and have a detector.
Now my place obviously isn't finished and I feel I get enough"leakage" from my roof vents. Once I plan to finish the walls and keep the place heated while we are not there I plan on installing a vented heater. Buddy of mine had a ventless and used it for 20 years. The problem was the inside smelled, Grant it he was a smoker but didn't care for the burnt propane smell. So my heater will be going into the garage at that point. Also at night we keep the heater on 1. It stays just above 60 and hardly runs. Also the 2 lofts are not smoking hot. 
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 30 Nov 2014 21:25
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I agree that there is some CO risk to ventless space heater use. Unmentioned in this thread is the moisture issue. Not everyone will be so unfortunate as to have a CO event occur. However every vemtfree heater emits water vapor as a by product of combusting propane. There is no way around that; burn propane and water vapor is produced. That can cause issues with heavy condensation on any cold surfaces. If the interior shell is not very well air sealed, moisture can end up behind the finished walls, ceiling and the underside of roofs.
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Fanman
Member
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# Posted: 2 Dec 2014 18:21
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A properly vented wood stove exhausts all combustion products outside. A ventless heater exhausts all combustion products into the room. Theoretically burning gas just produces CO2 and water vapor, but in reality it's also burning anything else that's in the air... dust, pet dander, the summer's bugs, whatever. And they can put a lot of moisture into the air. There's a reason the manufacturers of ventless heaters tell you not to use them without a window open and not to use them in sleeping rooms, and some states don't allow them at all. I personally wouldn't put one in my cabin. A direct vent heater is a much better choice.
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241comp
Member
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# Posted: 3 Dec 2014 10:11 - Edited by: 241comp
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According to ventfree.org (Vent Free Products Association), since the introduction of the ODS in 1980, there has never been a recorded death due to CO emissions from a ODS-equipped vent-free appliance (fireplace, wall heater, etc). With tens of millions of these in use, it seems like they are very safe. That said, there is some risk and you have to decide if it is worth taking. I have 2 CO/smoke detectors in my cabin.
Vent-free wall heaters do output a LOT of moisture, so you will need to have some air exchange or you will have problems.
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Truecabin
Member
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# Posted: 27 Jan 2015 12:23
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i use an 18000 btu big buddy heater by mr.heater its catalytic and vent free
i run it for days and days i know there is water in combustion but never saw any fog on the windows and they are single pane
this is a real life test many times and if water does not condense on cold glass theres just not much water in the air
my cabins not very tight
i dont run the heater while sleeping
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 27 Jan 2015 14:20 - Edited by: MtnDon
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Quoting: Truecabin my cabins not very tight
That's the big clue right there. Moisture is exiting along with much of the heated air.
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creeky
Member
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# Posted: 27 Jan 2015 20:54
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this is a duplicate thread. but just in case ...
ventless heaters are illegal in canada for habitable spaces. why?
because they don't work at 100% efficiency. they do put out contaminants beyond the 4 that exist for sure.
And what exists for sure. mostly water vapor and co2. neither are harmful in small amounts. both can cause problems. water vapor leads to rot. mold. mildew. bacteria. c02. well.
then there's c0. even in small amounts, and a c0 detector. not a c02 detector but a c0 detector.
here's what the epa says
EPA AIR QUALITY INDEX (AQI)- SUB INDEX FOR CO 1
description 8-hour limit in ppm
------------------------------------------------------------------------
good 0-4.4
moderate 4.5-9.4
unhealthy for sensitive groups 9.5-12.4
unhealthy 12.5-15.4
very unhealthy 15.5-30.4
hazardous 30.4-50.4
--------------------------------------------------------------
and any c0 ppm for fetus' (what is the plural of fetus? feti?). man bad things happen.
Then there's n02. this is always present with propane combustion. it is harmful even in small concentrations. if you find yourself hacking and coughing ... n02.
then there's the possibility of contaminants in the propane. in the lines. in the room air and changing chemical composition by going through the flame.
i've seen some scary stuff in research on line. yes. vented propane heaters cost more. but what is the health of your family worth. more than a few hundred bucks i think ya?
so sure. drafty windows. runs for a few hours to take the chill off. but using a ventless propane heater with your kids in the room. well. and an as yet unborn child. probably not a good idea.
again. nobody wants to be mt. doom. but. vent away. 
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