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researcher
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# Posted: 14 Aug 2010 12:09 - Edited by: researcher
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Hello. I'm new to the site and what a great find.
My wife and I have been scouting upstate NY for some land to build a small cabin, and in the future, a house. The problem I'm running across is that NY building code (which is actually determined by the International Code Council, thank you global government), is a nightmare to comply with, making a simple recreational cabin nearly impossible to construct.
I've spoken to just about every code enforcement officer in Delaware County, which is where we are hoping to buy, and although NY allows a structure under 144 square feet to be built without a permit, this is only intended for sheds/storage buildings. If the building becomes a residence (which even one night of sleeping will make it), the minimum size jumps to 800 square feet and requires a septic system, running water and full electrical system. This of course will make a $2000 project into a $25,000 project, and require endless forms, permits and inspections.
Some of the CEO's seem to not care if I build a "shed" and sleep in it on the weekends on occasion, but most of them seem very hostile to the idea. One guy told me in most cases no one will "bust my balls" unless a neighbor complains that I've been staying overnight.
The next issue is the DEP (Department of Environmental Protection) which determines waste water and sewage regulations for most of the southern upstate area, as it's in the NYC watershed. I spoke to a guy from DEP and he told me as far as he's concerned a compost toilet is just fine as long as there is no running water or plumbing connected to the structure, and it's kept a minimum of 100 feet from streams, ponds, etc. But, the local CEO's tell me that their requirements (the townships) say compost toilets are not allowed at all, only full septic systems. Yet another CEO told me that yes, I can indeed build a recreational cabin, but it must be a minimum of 190 square feet (120 min. per room and 70 min. for bathroom) which can indeed have a compost toilet as long as I get a notarized letter from DEP stating that I can use a compost toilet.
So, near the point of complete frustration I decided to look into PA. PA has much more lax regulations as they use UCC (Uniform Construction Code) which is national standards as opposed to international. They even have an exemption for recreational cabins which removes the requirements for permits or inspections as long as I sign an affadavit stating that it will not be a full time residence, no mail will be delivered, etc. This exempts me from septic as well, except for the fact that local sewage codes generally require a septic or at least a sewage enforcement and DEP approved outhouse.
Next problem with PA is I can't afford more than an acre or so, as opposed to NY where I can get 2-8 acres for the same price.
So, I guess the plan is to build a "shed" with a loft and hope no one complains, but this limits my options for the way it looks and whether or not I can put in wood stove. Ugh, I'm disgusted by NY which has basically outlawed natural life. They've make it a punishable offense to live the way humans have been living for tens of thousands of years. So much for "freedom."
Anyone have any experience with building in upstate NY?
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nyantler
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# Posted: 15 Aug 2010 20:53
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try farther north in NY... codes are much more relaxed... i have 5.5 acres and a brand new 16x20 camp with loft for just $25,000
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researcher
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# Posted: 16 Aug 2010 11:52
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Thanks for the tip. I checked out Ostego County and, with the exception of local municipal zoning codes in developed areas, in a rural area I can build up to about 1500 square feet and have an outhouse or compost toilet with minimal government interference. Under 144 square feet and no problems at all.
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 21 Sep 2010 01:24
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hello, i have a small piece of property up in osoyoos, and i'm looking for a small log cabin. i came across this tiny log cabin package, what do you guys think?
http://www.loghomedeals.com/
do you think that i can complete my site prep, septic etc and still finish this cabin for $50k?
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seesaw
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# Posted: 8 Jan 2011 20:06
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NYantler is right, it's more lax as you get further from the city. We have 5 acres in a NYC watershed and plan to build a "shed" in the spring. Off the grid. Our immediate area has full blown houses and camps with all sorts of toilet situations.
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rayyy
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# Posted: 24 Jan 2011 17:39
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I feel for ya thereResearcher,I use to love living in NY but they have gottin to be such money grubbing yahoo's there in Albany.I too am so discouraged by the regulations and red tape and hoops they make you jump through.Use to be so much easier years ago.You filled out a simple one page application,paid your 35 bucks and you were go to go.Now,,,well you know!
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bobrok
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# Posted: 25 Jan 2011 11:06
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I think (I do not hope so) that NY is way ahead of the curve when it comes to this. Now there is talk of legislating to make it legal for a state to declare insolvency and go bankrupt. And to think that we were once, figuratively AND literally, the "Empire State". Sad to see what we are leaving for our children.
I apologize in advance for the rant and for posting this in other than the 'off-topic' column.
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Gary O
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# Posted: 25 Jan 2011 22:27
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Quoting: bobrok Now there is talk of legislating to make it legal for a state to declare insolvency and go bankrupt.
It seems Oregon is a mirror image of upstate NY, in that no matter where, or how far out you want to be, it's all regulated to the point of imposed immobility.
If I wish to do anything myself, I've got to go under the radar, and hope a tear down is not one day imposed. I feel our place is out far enough, but I hate the thought fo being an out right renegade.....
One thought is that since governments are cutting back and going insolvent, and working folk are getting foreclosed on and actually becoming homeless, that federalies will turn their regimented heads on those that are self sustaining........
I too am sorry for the rant, but it's good to get a vent out.
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rayyy
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# Posted: 28 Jan 2011 16:37
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I built a whole house back in the early 80's.Was a one page building permit and 35 dollars.(I'm happy to say the house is still standing and looks great.)Now I want to build a small recreational cabin and HOLY COW!!!What is all this BS???It's not rocket science.Fill this form out in triplicate submit to this commity than to this agency then to this planning board to the health dept to a licenced archetect ...It's just a cabin for crying out louddd.
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cosmictotem
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# Posted: 29 Jan 2011 14:46 - Edited by: cosmictotem
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If you're correct, researcher, how does this person, who lives in the Saugerties in the catskills rent out multiple cabins with no septics, a wood burning stove and an outhouse??? LOL.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubFAYpe2OL8
Or this couple who built in Palenville?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5yTskCtR-8
I'm genuinely curious as to how these people do this.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 29 Jan 2011 16:29
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Quoting: cosmictotem Or this couple who built in Palenville?:
There are a lot of cabins everywhere that "just happened" without all the red tape being followed. I know of several around the mountains near us. What happens if they are discovered by officialdom....?
Or they could be older ones that were there before the regs changed?
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 4 Feb 2011 02:00
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Does anybody know anything about the regulations in Lewis County NY?
I'm looking into getting a plot of land and to build a small cabin..you guys know..a place where I can enjoy the simple things in life with the ones I love.
But would hate to be held up by the restraints of my lords who reside in the great ivory towers of Albany.
Any info on Lewis county would be appreciated.
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bobrok
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# Posted: 4 Feb 2011 13:11
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Anon:
Lewis is a rather large county and you didn't specify in what town you were interested. I would start by getting in touch with the Lewis County Department of Building and Fire Codes. They can gve you general info and from there you can contact more locally. Their number is 315.376.5377 and they are in Lowville. I hope this helps. Are you looking inside the Park?
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Luke
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# Posted: 25 Jul 2011 08:25
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I have a design that I have been toying with that is 144 SF, just for this occasion. I have been told that 144 is the maximum ground plane footprint, so therefore it has a loft which offers additional SF. I have incorporated "projected wimdows" which form window seats on the interior. They make the floor plan more roomy but do not contribute to the square footage calculation. Everyone I show it to likes the lines on it and are usually surprised that it is only 144 SF. It is a unique "storage shed". Is there a way I can upload an image? Sorry- not as computer savy as I should be.
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smitty
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# Posted: 25 Jul 2011 12:02
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Ask them, I'll bet someone would be more than glad to tell you how they did it. Especially if it's some they are proud of.. Worse they can do is say "get lost".. Try to ask them how they did it.
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Luke
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# Posted: 26 Jul 2011 19:43
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I did a little research for you and I think this is significant. Please see http://www.dos.ny.gov/DCEA/pdf/TBhuntfishcab.pdf. This is a NYS code interpretation that classifies cabins under "utility" structures in lieu of "single family residential". As such, if I understand this document correctly, it exempts structures from conventional electrical, plumbing and possibly sanitary sysstem. It may be that many building inspectors are unaware of this technical bulletin. Hope this helps any recent readers of this blog.- at least within New York State. Nice that a precedent has been established.
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backwoodsTim
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# Posted: 8 Apr 2012 12:21
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I am also in NYS. I own 26 acres in Allegany County and 25 acres in Chautaqua County and have found that the more you try to do the right thing the more red tape you have to go thru. Everyone wants their $. Talking with like minded people in both areas has taught me that sometimes its better to fly under the radar when looking to build a small cabin or camp. Especially in areas where many of these camps are located. In Allegany Cty the I inquired with the building inspector about a 16x24 cabin and was read all the regs pertaining to sq/ft, septic, power source and the need for running water....BUT was told that unless someone actually complained they wont come looking for VIOLATERS. Again no mail, no public utilities, no McMansions flying in the face of the MAN and I would take my chances.
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jbos333
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# Posted: 26 Apr 2012 21:58
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That NYS code interpretation is interesting....does it apply to ONLY Adirondack Park area or is it statewide?
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Jack Strawb
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# Posted: 25 Apr 2013 19:25
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Just got a message from a gentleman with New York's Department of Environmental Conservation in Albany, and he told me that Columbia County won't allow composting toilets in any new construction (didn't ask about old construction). That's a shame. Isn't this 2013? Aren't we supposed to be encourage water conservation, among other things?
The NYS Building Code (Appendix 75-A, iirc) specifically allows for composting toilets under certain conditions. I didn't realize an entire County could banish them. It's a pity. I wanted to build a one bedroom cabin, and saving upwards of 20k on waste disposal makes all the difference.
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TheWildMan
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# Posted: 26 Apr 2013 11:31
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your understanding of upstate ny seems a bit flawed, deleware county is not upstate. 95% of ny state seems to be "upstate" while the wang of long island and the rectum called the city seem to be the only ny not called upstate.
try going further north, to places the upper class of the city don't build their recreation homes (they care about property values and codes keeping their vacation neighborhoods nice, so codes are strict to keep them spending. go to a rural farming/or mountain area further away and you find the locals will let you do just about anything since we don't really care as long as our corn fields arn't bothered
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cvelardi
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# Posted: 25 Jul 2013 16:22
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Lots of variation here but if you cannot build a certain size building to live in without having to get (if this is the case) running water, full electric and septic, then how do the Amish get by these requirements as they do not seem to use or have any of these?
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PatrickH
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# Posted: 25 Jul 2013 17:38
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Im in Douglas county Wisconsin and they have alot of the same rules minimum square footage, you can have an outhouse but need a 500$ soil test and a permit they only allow 2 brands of composting toilets I have to pay a fee to the county to build anything they call it a zoning permit then I have to pay for a seperate builing permit from the state/city Im in. You have to have your sanitation permit first and you also need an errosion permit you also cant have pressurized water in the cabin without the septic which has to be designed and installed by a master plumber.So far we have over 2000$ in paper work fees for our 18x28 in the middle of no where ain't buggin anyone cabin.
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rayyy
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# Posted: 26 Jul 2013 18:16
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New York use to have a recreational category along with agricultural and residential.But now "Ain't no such thing.They can't make enough money off it.They need them big tax dollars for themselves.It's a shame.I use to love new York.
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swampshaman
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# Posted: 26 Aug 2013 13:28
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I just went through this in chenango county.when I inquired 2 yrs ago I was told that I didnt need any permits for a small cabin if there was no running water,septic or elect in the rural area I am building(i was told its the wild wild west out there,yall dont need nothing.I went back this year to verify as Im at the building stage.I was now told the cabin had to meet nys residential building code(permit cost $200) but..there was no zoning.when I asked the ceo what that meant i was told I could run my waste pipe out to a field and spray some lime on it if the smell bothered me.when i told him I was building an outhouse for solid waste,and a double barrel buried grey water system for the cabin water he said wow,thats a lot of work.also my building permit is for a utility cabin which seems to bypass a lot of the rules.So In more rural areas it seems they just want the cash and dont really care what you do after.
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optimistic
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2013 14:52
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Quoting: Luke I did a little research for you and I think this is significant. Please see http://www.dos.ny.gov/DCEA/pdf/TBhuntfishcab.pdf. This is a NYS code interpretation that classifies cabins under "utility" structures in lieu of "single family residential". As such, if I understand this document correctly, it exempts structures from conventional electrical, plumbing and possibly sanitary sysstem. It may be that many building inspectors are unaware of this technical bulletin. Hope this helps any recent readers of this blog.- at least within New York State. Nice that a precedent has been established.
I have read about this a long time ago.... If you call NYS department of building, like I did, they will explain to you that this is not code and that you are still under your local municipality rules. This is just a technical bulletin. Which translates into - this isn't worth much. If your town has different rules - they over-ride this. Period.
Furthermore, this is what they are referring to - http://apa.ny.gov/Forms/SIR-2011-0922revisdedHuntingAndFishingCabin.pdf
You need to comply with 5 things there which sounds great but it doesn't mean much as your town is not obligated, by no means, to follow this. So when push comes to shove - it won't help. This literally brings you back to the whole "if your building inspector is nice" kind of approach. If your BI is nice and allow such primitive cabins - you are good, regardless of this document.
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mikehu1966
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2013 15:22 - Edited by: mikehu1966
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Hi Swampshaman,
I am in Chenango County too. I have been doing leg work on getting an idea of what is needed / can be built.. as long as it is built to NYS , code, and a permit, all is good.
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swampshaman
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2013 15:43
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Hi Mikehu1966,
Go see the permit people at the county clerks office in norwich they were real friendly.the guy working there is a ceo and he knows all the ceos for the various towns.he gave me the phone number for my ceo and i called him(see my last post).It all depends where you are building, Im building in Mcdonough,real laid back.
My shell builder is Kauffman builders on rt 35 he knows all the ceos as well and has a great working relationship w/them.he also builds everything to code and seems to know the rules real well.where are you building??
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mikehu1966
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2013 17:06
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@ swampshaman
I am over in Afton. Hopefully start something in the next 18 months or sooner. I spoke with ashed builder just outside of Binghampton. I also stopped by Kauffman, actually they are closer to me then the one in Binghampton. Good Look, I will watch your thread looking for pics.
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rudy
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# Posted: 30 Aug 2013 00:23
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I am a CEO in upstate NY. Local municipal codes may be more restrictive than the Residential Code, but not less restrictive. It's really not that bad for a seasonal/recreational use structure. if you hide it from the CEO, the Assessor will find it. Then it's a problem. Find a CEO that can pronounce "common sense". At this date, the ICC building, residential, and fire code has been adopted in every state in the union, and adopted by every municipality within each state. Thank the insurance companies for that. In my jurisdiction, I see dangerous stuff, not the little things. I'd rather you wake up in the morning; I want to see the woodstove installation and a smoke/CO detector. wake up tomorrow so you can drink more beer. Most of us feel this way, and we apologize for the rest.
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Josh8880
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# Posted: 30 Aug 2013 07:29
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Swamp and mike,
I'm in process right near both of you, in Preston, on rt. 18..,a few miles from bowman lake st. Park. It's a beautiful area! Did you guys do pier foundations? I'm hitting solid rock only 2' below the surface...so I'm thinking of switching my game plan to a slab foundation....decisions decisions..
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