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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 11 Aug 2015 05:35
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OK, OK, 'fore you wizards display all yer knowledge in seventeen paragraphs (condensed form) from my painfully simple questions, please be of the understanding that I have as much experience with anything that happens to involve insulated wire as I do with neuro surgery (we'll discuss neuros, and why we seem to think we must operate on them in another thread).
In other words, if you explain the whys, I'll be forced to cordially thank you then flee to google and go on my own self-imposed bunny trails (of which I ardy have, thus here I am).
Also know that I have moderately above average intellect, but seem to also possess a reverse ADD affliction of which sentences like... 'of course the respondent constrictor does activate the gizmoidal contabulooter, but only when the centerific diozide is at its optimal fortitude' .....tend to put me into a deep coma.
Let's move on;
I just inherited the infamous Harbor Fright solar kit from my good friend's widow.
Took me 30 minutes to dismantle the panels from their sea container roof (grab it, shake it off the stand, scurry down the ladder, pick up the pieces).
I noticed right off the bat that some of the wires going from the panels to the little box inside the sea container were neatly crimped by the closing of the container doors several times. This has enabled me to determine copper wire is inside.
Now, I have replaced wires before;
Get the same gauge, color, type
Strip
Hook up new terminals
Electrocute myself
During these brief experiences, I have found that amps play an important role in giving one the immediate ability to get hair to stick straight out while simultaneously enabling one's right hand, arm, and collar bone to vibrate.
Doesn't take very many amps, really.
Oh, during these enlightening times, I have also discovered that the color of adrenalin is brown.
Let's proceed, shall we? (this is not my first question, btw)
The Inverter
Front (or back)
Other Front (or back)
Upon initial examination, I have found this somewhat large doohickey to be rather important in regard to not frying gadgets that plug into wall outlets, or in my case the multi outlet of which is connected to 500 coiled feet of orange extension cord....and, since it has a label with several seemingly important words, some that say 'DO NOT REMOVE LABEL!!' (so I put it back on)
I also see that the housing is made of aluminum and has a fan and cooling fins, of which I have found is used to keep things cool..things that get hot. (I lost the dermis to several fingertips at a rather young age...57).
The universal DC power adapter
I suppose this dealy bob sends the juice to the inverter from the solar panel via what appears to be low voltage wire of some sort.
The Battery
THIS SUCKER IS HEAVY!
It's like it's made of lead or something.
My first question, today, is;
If I were to just charge the deep cycle battery from, say, my little 2200 peak watt genny, what do I need? (easy there, not why do I need it)
Question number two;
Man, that's some honkin' wire!
Looks big enough to jump start Hong Kong.
Do I really need that gauge?
One more question;
Is this enough battery to store juice for an evening of TV/VCR, four 60w bulbs and a couple computers...and a couple/three chargers?
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beachman
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# Posted: 11 Aug 2015 06:05
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Gary, I would say the label belongs to the charge controller which you refer to as the Universal DC power adaptor, not the inverter. I am a newby so others can add to this with corrections. The wire size from your panel depend on the distance to the charge controller (CC). If less than 40 ft, #10 will do nicely. The wires from the CC to the battery should be a little more robust, say #8 and should have a fuse, 30 amp, on the + wire near the battery terminal to protect the wiring to the CC. The wires from the battery to the 3000W inverter read to be heavy, at least #1awg and no longer than 3 or 4 ft, 5ft max. The battery through the inverter will run what you want but you have to calculate watt hours to see if it will do the job for the length of time needed. Looks like a modified sine inverter so be careful with sensitive electronics.
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beachman
Member
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# Posted: 11 Aug 2015 06:08
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Should be ... wires from the battery to the 3000W inverter need to be heavy. (not read). Damn spell correcter.
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Just
Member
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# Posted: 11 Aug 2015 09:18
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If , the battery is in good shape it is big enough IMO. Go slow and be careful ZAP..
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creeky
Member
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# Posted: 11 Aug 2015 10:55 - Edited by: creeky
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No. On size. You've got about 400 watts usable there. So that's a couple of hours of tv. Or a few hours of lights. Or, depending on the computer ... well you get the idea.
1. sell the inverter and get a much smaller one. 3000w is way oversize for that system. tho the battery connect cables look good. and are probably worth more than the inverter. do not use this inverter without them.
2. Is there no "real" solar controller? That power adapter looks to be a neat toy, but I don't see charging and maintaining a battery with it.
3. You have a nice lump of lead there. What is the date on it? It will be good for a trade in on a new one. Also check the water level. you'll be able to see what shape the plates are in.
4. The wires look okay on your pic. It's just the outer wrap that looks damaged. yes?no? you could just cut the damage and put a crimp connector on 'em.
5. What. You. Moving towards a solar system. Oh ya. It was the blue moon recently. 
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SE Ohio
Member
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# Posted: 11 Aug 2015 13:27 - Edited by: SE Ohio
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As Beachman noted, the panel wires supplied are anemic and could stand to go up in size.
60 watt incandescent bulbs are not efficient, you can do better with fluorescent or LED bulbs on either 12 Vdc or 120 volts ac. Note that the HF solar controller may be internally fused for 5 amps for its DC outputs, so do the math before plugging in much to it.
The HF controller is very low end. A better controller will cycle a lead-acid battery (assuming that's what you have) to avoid grungy lead battery plates (Sulfation). In your car, the battery gets "stirred up" a bit with every bump and slosh which helps prevent buildup. A good controller will cycle the battery and extend (expensive) battery life as a sloshing alternative. Hope I didn't go overboard explaining here; I do get 16 more paragraphs, right?
HF charger manual recommends manually turning controller on at sunrise and off at sunset. The panels will actually drain the batteries at night or in heavy shade. Warning! Tech stuff! You can add a diode to each panel to prevent this drain. Be glad to mail you (for free) diodes you need and send sketch of install, just email me your address (see my profile). This might make setup good enough?
There is an excellent HF solar panel forum if you get the bug!
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 11 Aug 2015 14:43
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Quoting: Gary O If I were to just charge the deep cycle battery from, say, my little 2200 peak watt genny, what do I need? (easy there, not why do I need it)
A good battery charger, sized to the battery capacity. Good = one with 3 stage charging; bulk, absorb,float. Good = $$ (generally). Iota is a decent brand. Many sizes available. For off grid use with a generator they can be tweaked to put out a higher voltage to speed charging. But that requires getting inside it.
But first determine whether or not the battery is any good. You could take it to an auto / battery shop and have it tested under load. They may have to charge it if it is not full.
Trojan date codes their batteries with a number on the battery post, IIRC. Search their website for how to read date code and exactly where it is.
Check fluid; it should cover the plates. Do not add water before charging if the plates are covered, even if the level looks low. IF the battery is partially charged the electrolyte volume increases as the battery is charged. So the drill, is to be sure the plates have some fluid cover, charge to full, add water, charge some more.
IF your generator has a 12 VDC outlet that can be used to charge a battery. But it is slow and a fuel waste. Your user manual should have info if it has a 12 VDC output.
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NorthRick
Member
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# Posted: 11 Aug 2015 14:45 - Edited by: NorthRick
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So, I noticed, despite your plea, nobody answered your questions simply. Here goes:
1. You need a battery charger. One that normally plugs into a wall outlet (you would plug it into the generator outlet instead) and is designed to charge a 12v DC battery (which is what you have). Lots to choose from. Many have alligator clips to attach to the battery.
2. For that inverter - yes. As mentioned, the inverter it too large for the system. You can use it, just don't plug something big into it (like a space heater).
3. No. That battery isn't big enough for the load you describe. You could probably watch a movie in the dark. Or play cards in the light. Or work on your computer in the semi-dark.
Hope this helps.
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 11 Aug 2015 14:51
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Quoting: Gary O Man, that's some honkin' wire! Looks big enough to jump start Hong Kong. Do I really need that gauge?
Don't try to second guess on that. Inverter to battery wire has to be BIG. Mine are the size of a broomstick.
Quoting: Gary O One more question; Is this enough battery to store juice for an evening of TV/VCR, four 60w bulbs and a couple computers...and a couple/three chargers
Depends. But maybe not.
First, as was mentioned if the 60 watt bulb refers to honest to goodness 60 watt incandescent bulbs, lose those real quick. CFL's would be better but LED's are the only thing that makes sense for running off a battery.
Second, as was also mentioned, the inverter is poorly sized for use with a one or two battery setup. It can supply more AC power than the poor battery can keep up with. Instead of 3000 watts you should probably only have a 300 to 400 watt inverter. with that battery size. The big inverter will have a relatively huge idle consumption. When powering a small load like a small LED TV the inverter could use half as much power as the TV.
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 11 Aug 2015 15:03
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If the HF solar controller manual actually instructs the user to disconnect after the sun goes down, it is a piece of junk.
IMO, HF solar equipment is all worth less than what the store charges. It may be worth what it cost you, but not much more.
Yes, the label that you attached to the inverter appears to belong to the other box.
Note the battery label states; 130 AH @ 20 HR. That means, if in great shape it can supply 130 AH or power when the drain is spread for 20 Hours. Sorry if this gets technical. I can't help that. Being a lead acid battery one should not try to use all 130 AH though. That will harm the battery. At a maximum 50% of that should be the maximum withdrawal. 50% of 130 AH = 65 AH.
65 AH X 12 volts (the battery rating) = 780 watt hours. If the only load on that was 2 of those 60 watt incandescent bulbs , the battery would last maybe 6 hours before reaching the 50% point. That does not take into account the power the inverter would use to make that 120 VAC power.
Another question would be IF that much power was withdrawn from the battery how long would it take the panels (unknown to us right now as to capacity) to recharge the battery? We'd need the panel specs, mainly the amps marked as Imp on the specs although all the other tech data is needed to know for certain.
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SE Ohio
Member
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# Posted: 11 Aug 2015 19:24
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I think this is the HF 45 watt/12 volt setup, theoretically good A bit over 3 amps at 12 volts.
The HF system isn't optimum, but still can provide value. I have this same system and have used it (with a replacement controller) for several years now. I still get out the older controller for convenience of USB and 12 volt car charger plug-ins for charging phone, kids electronics.
On a sunny day, my 45 watt HF panel setup alone will not power a 35 watt car DVD/monitor. It has to drain a bit off the batteries (2 6 volt golf cart batts). So my panels put out less than 35 watts. In the evening, my small cabin was well lit by 2 12 volt/15 watt CF bulbs (from rv store), drawing 2.5 amps per hour. (Since changed to LEDs) . My first battery was a single 12 volt deep cycle, and it lasted about 2 years with the crappy controller. Not too bad on the scheme of low power usage things.
When your battery fails, consider the golf cart variety for more power storage. if your battery is fine as is, don't replace it. My golf cart batteries have out-lasted my 12 volt deep cycle battery dollar for dollar.
I do plan to install my new 100 watt panel soon, and will relegate the 45 watt setup to a yet-to-be acquired trailer or guest cabin. "Junk" or not, I'm not going to throw any of it away!
Try what you've got, see where it takes you. You may get along just fine, or you might give you ideas on expansion (more power, Mr. Scott!).
Good luck with whatever you do!
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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 11 Aug 2015 20:35
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Thank you, folks
Overall consensus is this is a toy with a few adult components.
I like what SE Ohio and Just sez, and I'll toy with it all....s-l-o-w-l-y
Beachman found me out on the label (the pics got myself confused)
Creeky (#5); No. I just inherited this stuff. Will play with it in my down time.
I appreciate NorthRick's direct replies.
...and MtnDon's constraint
I may just keep the inverter and get components to match.
One last question;
Think this inverter is any good?
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Just
Member
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# Posted: 11 Aug 2015 21:19
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keep everything else set the inverter aside and get a 200 or 300 watt with a usb port, that and a good battery should make your evenings much quieter . It will tell you what it can or cannot do!!
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 11 Aug 2015 23:24
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This may turn out to be an opportunity for a learning experience. If you don't have the manuals for the equipment you should be able to find the user manuals on HF. Well,for the HF items at least.
At minimum you need a multimeter to check battery voltage. HF as them for less than $7 last time I looked. Or a hydrometer if you want to dabble with science.
How many of what size panels is an important thing. That will help give some idea of how much can be withdrawn from the battery and have a reasonable expectation of the panels recharging the battery.
Start off by just using a light or two for a few days and see how the system stands up to that use. To really get a handle on it you need the aforementioned voltmeter or hydrometer.
For the time being use the overly big inverter. It is free after all. Turning it off when lights are not being used with save the battery. A nuisance IMO, but a definite power saver.
If the battery stands up to your light use, add the TV or something. Work up the use as you see what happens.
Back to the genny..... does it have 12 VDC outout as a Honda, Yamaha.... do? The manual will say how many amps output. It may say you need to run the thing with the eco setting Off... genny at full speed in other words. Why? Don't worry about why, just follow the genny instructions if it has 12 VDC.
The first thing should be to determine the state of charge of the battery and get it full asap if it is not full right now.
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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 12 Aug 2015 05:25
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MtD, for the first time in my scf life, I'm going to follow your instruction to the letter.
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creeky
Member
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# Posted: 12 Aug 2015 10:39
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I'm going to quibble with MtnDon.
once you get passed the "play" period. sell the inverter. it probably has 35w/hr in idle losses. so if you're running some led lights at 8w x 2, your real use is 50w with inverter losses.
Just (and others) are right. a 300w inverter (pure sine is best) would be much better for that size of battery.
and agree with him
the battery needs to be charged asap. can you put a multimeter on it and check the SOC? you should get a reading of 12.6 or 12.7.
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 12 Aug 2015 12:48
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I did say....
Quoting: MtnDon For the time being use the overly big inverter.
Learn without spending any money or at least nothing more than a cheap multimeter or hydrometer.
If Gary can make it work running a few lights for a few weeks or so, then GaryO can probably make it work with a TV, etc added and then I agree he should ditch the BIG inverter and go with a quality small one like a Morningstar 300 Puresine.
During the learning phase Gary, you should make a list of what electric devices you must have and what you would like to have. And their amps / watts.
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creeky
Member
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# Posted: 12 Aug 2015 13:38
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objections about a trivial matter
missed the "time being" part. oops.
MtnDon, you and I have been showing people how easy it is to do solar for how many years? I think we should clap each other on the back and say "Job well done. sir." course, that's my personal opinion.
Tho, look at the number of really good small solar systems on this site now. Man, perhaps only in part, but we've made a difference.
So I say. I say to you sir. Job well done.
ps- what do you think? Gary needs to build a real solar system. what. he's full time off grid. jeez. get a decent battery (lifepo4 of course). a decent inverter. and a battery charger. to start?
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 12 Aug 2015 16:54
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Gary needs to learn, experiment with his HF stuff, and gain some confidence, IMO. Hopefully the battery is okay, at least good enough. Once again, at a minimum a multimeter is needed. Thats one of the few things HF is okay for. IMO.
I am still wondering what panels he has... maybe three of those regtangulat 15 watt things?
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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 12 Aug 2015 17:08
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those regtangulat 15 watt things?
Yup
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bobrok
Member
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# Posted: 12 Aug 2015 17:56
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Quoting: creeky MtnDon, you and I have been showing people how easy it is to do solar for how many years? I think we should clap each other on the back and say "Job well done. sir." course, that's my personal opinion.
I think you two need to go on the road and help the rest of us who salivate at every pointer you two make. Start with me, please?
...'course, that's just MY personal opinion!
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LastOutlaw
Member
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# Posted: 12 Aug 2015 19:10
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I sure appreciate the help and info both gave me when I was asking dumb questions.
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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 14 Aug 2015 04:03
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Quoting: Gary O MtD, for the first time in my scf life, I'm going to follow your instruction to the letter.
Heh, I seem to always re-discover this about me.
I'm not the dabbling, curious sort when it comes to electricity, science, even mechanics. I do know the basics of internal combustion, four and two stroke....had to learn...or walk.
Oh, I could fiddle with this stuff, maybe get a light to shine, maybe even find out what makes a solar set up tick...if I had to...but...I... just....don't....care.
I admire folks that do, and am constantly amazed at what you guys find and know thru finding, reading, studying, proving. Truly amazed.
I applaud you all.
...and thank you for trying.
I gave this stuff to the kid down the road.
What I will do, when I'm ready, is consult you guys, once again, as to what components I'll need in order to run the list of things that I'll surely provide.
Again
Thank you.
now, where's that hammer....
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