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JJHess
Member
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# Posted: 13 Oct 2015 16:59
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Our family has 96 acres in north central PA that we started building a cabin on about a year and a half ago. It has 3 bedrooms and sleeps 14 people comfortably. We have electric, running water and propane appliances. The 2 of us who have built the place have decided to start charging a fee for using the place starting in 2016. As you all know, no one has time to help work on a cabin but everyone has time to use it.
We are trying to come up with a fair fee for both the people using it and for we who pay the bills. My uncle wants to charge $20/night per family unit (one person or a family of 5) and I'm thinking $5/person/night. What do you do at your place, especially if it is used by other family or friends?
For hunting seasons we are thinking $5/day per hunter on top of the cabin fee. This money would go into a separate kitty that would be used for food plots, tree stands, our shooting range and other work related to hunting. Our property boarders state game lands to the north and state forest to the east so there are thousands of acres accessible from our cabin, not just our 96 acres.
Interested in hearing your ideas.
Thanks
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DaveBell
Moderator
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# Posted: 13 Oct 2015 17:28
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Comps in the area. Call around to similar rentals like you are shopping for rates. You need a signed contract and sizable deposit for damages.
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 13 Oct 2015 17:50 - Edited by: MtnDon
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Ours is a small family with even fewer close enough to use our cabin. Family gets free use. Time depends on our schedule.
A very few close friends also get free use, depending on our schedule. The two of us come first. These friends contribute goods; toilet paper, alcohol free chain saw fuel, labor for felling a tree or two (we always have a few marked for future cutting), etc.
$5 a person isn't worth the hassle, IMO. Payment may make someone feel they have more rights than when the use is offered in friendship. Payment may also open a whole different can of liability worms.
What is the purpose behind the proposed fee? To discourage free loaders? I don't feel I have to share our property with anyone. After all I built it with my immediate "nuclear" family in mind. We do have friends over and some stay overnight but that is "company" and by invitation and all those folks generally contribute pot luck food without being asked to. And of course they contribute their companionship.
One other thing... when we have family or friends use our cabin they have to bring sleeping bags. They use them on top of the bedding or in cases of overflow on the floor. That way we don't have to deal with laundering sheets every time.
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turkeyhunter
Member
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# Posted: 13 Oct 2015 18:14
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we just rented a cabin this past long weekend 3 bedroom in the Mountains of Middle TN.....woods & view of a lake.. $225 a night after taxes/cleaning fee.
Note/// Turn your cabin into a RENTAL cabin per say on your taxes...OH the tax breaks you get. My CPA showed me the light. 
20 bucks a person Minimum !!!! per night!!!!
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Just
Member
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# Posted: 13 Oct 2015 19:56
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Our's sleeps 8 $130 a night + $50 a week for cleaning .
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pash
Member
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# Posted: 13 Oct 2015 20:47
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Im with MtnDon its not really worth it. As with other things where families use them in different amounts you can either have a patriarch that pays for everything or you can have a separate account where you all pay in each time, but someone is going to feel slighted somewhere. But that might be the goal where only the people who really care about it will be on board. Now as for other people not associated with you. AirBnb average price will give you a price around $100+ per night plus a cleaning fee.
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bldginsp
Member
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# Posted: 14 Oct 2015 12:22
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If you do actually charge people, be aware that the local planning department might consider this a change of use of the property requiring a special license or whatever, and they may want to charge you a hotel tax. IF they find out and IF they have such rules it could be a nightmare. With the advent of airbb all local authorities are wondering how to regulate this because neighbors don't want the next door to be turned into a hotel and the jurisdiction wants money.
In remote areas it's probably less an issue, but I'd still keep it quiet and 'just among friends'. If you put it on airbb the local jurisdiction may see it too.
That said, hotel rates around the country in many areas are going way up because of the lack of building that occurred in the recession. They didn't build then, now there are not enough rooms. The price is dictated by supply and demand. Obviously you won't charge your family and friends the highest rate possible, but basically, what makes it worth it for you?
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creeky
Member
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# Posted: 14 Oct 2015 12:39
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buddy tried renting. second group up: didn't follow the toilet use rules; annoyed the neighbors by having many friends visit; broke stuff. he had to do a holding tank pump out and there went any profit. they tried 5 different rentals over 2 years and ended up just stopping. his wife is pretty fussy about cleanliness ...
i'm still debating whether to do a writer's off grid retreat. no cleanliness fetish. any writers here that think something like that could be fun? bring your own tent / RV. electricity/washroom/shower/kitchen provided. nominal fee. like 250/wk to pay for facilities?
rules from the writers group I visit in the winter in Florida: only read from unpublished work. every critique must start with a compliment. smile. there'd be a reading/critique session what every two days?
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skootamattaschmidty
Member
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# Posted: 14 Oct 2015 14:14
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We have never had anyone use the place unless we are up. The place has too many unique tricks to let just anybody use it. Having said that, there is rarely a trip up that doesn't have friends or family along. This past weekend for thanksgiving we had 14 people up. It was a great time but busy to say the least. I never charge or ask for any money. My family is always good at providing the food for all of us and I usually get cheap labour for my many projects. This past weekend everyone who came up left us money to cover the "operating expenses" like propane, gas, toilet paper, etc. I didn't want to take it but they would not take no for an answer. Especially since they all helped in cleaning up brush, felling a tree and splitting wood. It was a very nice gesture and was appreciated.
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 14 Oct 2015 14:18
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Quoting: skootamattaschmidty The place has too many unique tricks to let just anybody use it.
I have a user manual with photos and diagrams that covers all the idiosyncrasies.
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beachman
Member
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# Posted: 14 Oct 2015 17:11
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Don't short-term rent in Canada. The GST will come back to haunt you.
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JJHess
Member
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# Posted: 14 Oct 2015 18:13
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We are just looking for a way to offset the utilities & maintain the place. It would be strictly family & friends who are more like family. No classified ads, rental ads or anything like that. The way it is now, 2 of us have put in the time to build the place because no one else would. But since it is a 'family' property others feel entitled to use it. We have no problem with that but what we don't want to have happen is for one or two people to always be paying the bills when many others are contributing to the costs.
We are not trying to run a hotel, short term rental or anything like that. Just looking for some ideas as to how to 'feed the kitty'. When several of us are up there this fall for hunting seasons we are going to write up by-laws and establish an LLC with 3 members representing one member of the 3 brothers who currently own it. They will be responsible for paying the bills, maintaining the property, ect.
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creeky
Member
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# Posted: 14 Oct 2015 18:44
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beachman. you don't have to collect gst unless you make more than $30k.
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beachman
Member
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# Posted: 14 Oct 2015 20:43
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Creeky, you don't have to collect it as you say, but when it comes time to sell, the property is now tainted due to the rental.
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skootamattaschmidty
Member
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# Posted: 14 Oct 2015 21:00 - Edited by: skootamattaschmidty
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Good idea mtndon! I actually did type up a user manual but adding pictures would be helpful as well. My son went up last month for the first time by himself and I wanted to make it easy for him. He pretty much knows things but wanted to leave no doubt for him. I like the idea of pictures and diagrams.
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Just
Member
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# Posted: 14 Oct 2015 22:23
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taxes and utilities on our cottage are $5500.00 a year , its quit a kitty to feed .
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Salty Craig
Member
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# Posted: 15 Oct 2015 19:23
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Here's my thoughts:
If I build a cabin to live in and you come, you are company. If it's a "true cabin" there's hardly room for many guests', so not a problem. If my joint is big enough for an annoying crowd, then I live in a house and not a cabin. Ok, so this will make some yell. Sorry, deal with it.
If I live in a house (I do), and have enough money to build a cabin for recreational use (I do), why in the name of all that's righteous would I charge my friends to use it? If your not my friend, I don't own a rental property so take a hike. If your my friend, have at it.
Replace the TP and whatever other consumables you use. Treat the place good. If you don't, I'll remember the next time you want to go.
I've never taken a red cent for anyone using my cabin. If I need charity to pay for it, then I can't afford it. If I gotta pay to use a friends stuff, then they're not a friend.
And if you live there, it's your house. Totally different set of rules.
Salty Craig
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JJHess
Member
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# Posted: 15 Oct 2015 20:02
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Salty
I see your point. And I would be in the same boat if I bought the property with my own money, built the cabin with my own money, and was the only person using it. The issue here is the place wasn't built with just one person's money and one person on the deed. It is a family property, thus it is used by many people. What we don't want to have happen is have 30 people putting wear and tear on the place, but only 2 or 3 people having to pay for it.
It is not a house, but may be as big as some people's homes. It's 1280sf between the 2 floors, with the kitchen, bathroom, eating & living rooms on the main floor and 3 bedrooms that sleep 4-5 people each on the 2nd floor. I've been in other 'cabins' that were more than twice this size as well.
What we'd probably do is if I invite you to our cabin, I pay the $5 or whatever for you as my guest. If you are a good friend and you want to take your family up sometime on your own, you'd pitch in $5/person/night or whatever. If you can't cough up $5 but you help with work days or some other way of contributing, then we don't worry about it. If you can't help with anything, can't pitch in $5, but just want to use the place, it will probably be booked the weekends you want to use it.
It seems like most on here are the soul owners of their cabin & property. The concept of someone paying to use their place would probably seem foreign to you and I get that. The fee isn't going to lining someones pockets. It is going right back into the cabin & property to make improvements & keep the place nice for all to use.
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JJHess
Member
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# Posted: 15 Oct 2015 20:09
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Just -
They had the land timbered a few times and use some of that money to pay the taxes. The 3 brothers on the deed pay any shortages out of their own pockets. This has worked fine for the last 30 years but they are now between 65 and 75 years old so it is time to decide how to pass on the property to the next generation. This transition makes it the opportune time to get these things figured out.
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Salty Craig
Member
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# Posted: 15 Oct 2015 20:27
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JJHess
You are in a different situation. And I get that. All want it and few are coughing up the cash. Not cool. I hope you guys find a good solution. I hate partnerships of any sort except marriage.
I view a cabin as a private retreat for personal use. What you have is a shitty business deal. The cabin feel is being lost in the stress of the situation.
Best wishes, Craig
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Salty Craig
Member
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# Posted: 15 Oct 2015 20:33
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JJHess
And my loud comments were not a personal attack on you. I had forgot your circumstances till I read to the bottom and was just sharing my thoughts on charging friends. They call me Salty for a reason. 
Salty Craig
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JJHess
Member
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# Posted: 15 Oct 2015 21:22
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Quoting: Salty Craig And my loud comments were not a personal attack on you
Never took it that way.
Thanks for the input though.
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Borrego
Member
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# Posted: 15 Oct 2015 22:08
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We don't but if we did it would have to be at least $200 a night just for the PITA factor.....
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beachman
Member
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# Posted: 16 Oct 2015 06:28
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Family properties are really difficult. They come with a lot of hidden baggage and are almost a shrine that cannot be changed or improved. It is almost better not to charge anything then there is no obligation to those that come. I fully agree with Borrego, there is a significant PITA factor.
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NorthRick
Member
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# Posted: 16 Oct 2015 12:19
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Maybe start taking the bills as they come in, copying them and mailing to all the folks using the place with a request to chip in. Even if they don't, you will make them fully aware that the cabin ain't free. Then, if/when you do start charging per night, they'll have a harder time complaining about it.
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Kudzu
Member
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# Posted: 16 Oct 2015 18:17
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Is this family you are charging? Family that is part owner in the property? If so..............good luck.
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 16 Oct 2015 19:07
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Quoting: Kudzu Is this family you are charging? Family that is part owner in the property?
The OP did not make it clear if the couple that built the cabin was the sole and true owner of the property or if the property was shared among assorted family members. I assumed the couple who built it were the property owners. If the property is shared that is a whole different ball o' wax. And one I am happy I am not involved in. I love my family members but some of us have different ways of looking at things....
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JJHess
Member
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# Posted: 19 Oct 2015 18:43
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Maybe charging isn't the correct word to use. More of a donation for using the place. There are 3 brothers on the deed right now, my father-in-law & his 2 brothers. Right now the three of them split the bills, but the cabin isn't the design that my FIL wanted so he is reluctant to pitch in anything. That issue is something else from this though.
What we'd do is everyone who uses the place would pitch in a little to pay the bills. That includes the guys on the deed. We are not looking to make a profit off of the use of the cabin, just help pay the bills.
It seems that no one here has experience with this type of situation, and that is good for you guys. We'll figure something else out.
Thanks for the input.
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