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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 17 Feb 2016 02:48
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I know the pros and cons of a wood stove, of course. But pellet stoves have come down in price and it's something I also want to consider. The discussion on another thread about insurance companies and thermostat heat -- and Toyota's pellet stove suggestion got me thinking.
Pellet fuel seems expensive. But maybe not for a 400-500 sq. ft. cabin? The thermostat would make pipe freezing a non-issue. But I'm not finding much guidance on electric usage of the blower(s). Except it's 0.9 amps when running, a bit over 1 amp start-up.
Now the latest product I've found has me very intrigued. It's a wood-burning furnace and one reviewer said he has his installed outside and connected to ductwork inside his house. The thing is a powerhouse of heat. Here's the link:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Englander-3-000-sq-ft-Wood-Burning-Add-On-Furnace-28-3500/ 100185844
One thing is for sure. Whether I buy a wood stove, pellet stove or the furnace, it will be the Pleasant Hearth/Englander brand. American-made, EPA-certified, great reviews, great value for money. They're all on sale now.
My move is getting closer. 
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old243
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# Posted: 17 Feb 2016 09:12
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My daughter has a pellet stove, has quite a large house. They are at work all day, an oil furnace runs, as needed, with the temp set back . They use the pellet stove in the evenings, surprised at the heat it produces. A bag of pellets last about 3 days, with this usage. There is also electronic ignition on hers, to get the pellets lit. Not sure how the blower and ignition is handled but there must be 12volt as it is her back up heating source. Bags of pellets have to be handled , they are 20 kg, so 45 lbs. This is different than your situation , but might give you some info old243
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Greenland South
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# Posted: 17 Feb 2016 09:24
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Hi Julie
Take the pellet stove off your list. I have quite a lot of experience with these appliances. I inspect them for code compliance and I used to own one.
Problems with a pellet stove in no particular order;
-Storing pellets, they need to be kept bone dry, they take up a fair amount of space and are expensive
-Pellet stoves require a lot of ongoing maintenance, they have a lot of moving parts
-They don't work if your power source lets you down
-It's not a heat source I would rely on if I had to be away for a few days
-They are not as "green" as you might think. They take a lot of energy to harvest, process and ship to market. Then you have to pick them up and get them home.
Personally I think they are junk.
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Coyote Flats
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# Posted: 17 Feb 2016 10:39
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I live at my cabin all year long and I have a pellet stove which works great. I use it with my solar and suit case generator. Pellets are cheap in my area as you can get them in bulk which is 30 % cheaper. This is my first winter at the cabin next winter I will install a wood stove to reduce my fuel consumption. I looked at outside furnaces and boilers but they are same as pellet stove to much generator needed. I think the new wood stoves are the way to go get a all night burn and save fuel. I have unlimited pine to use . I must say I have a large pellet stove in my house in town which saves me at least 400 a month in the winter months.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 17 Feb 2016 19:56
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Thank you, old243! It's great that she has a backup like that! We heated with oil in NH and the cost was crazy. It is MUCH better now, of course!
Greenland South
Thank you for your expertise. You gave me great food for thought!
Coyote Flats
So you're going back to a wood stove, then?
It sounds like a pellet stove just adds too much to the equation, and I want to keep my cabin as simple as possible.
So it will either be the wood stove or put more thought into this wood furnace if I could have it outside and ductwork under the cabin floor.
I will need more info on the latter. Although I would miss having a wood stove inside, there would be advantages to a wood furnace outside.
First would be not having pipe going through the cabin roof and no need for a fresh air source, either. Secondly, having ductwork would mean I could have register vents around the cabin for good heat flow, including in the bathroom which might not get much heat since it will be a separate room with a door. Thirdly, there may be a way of providing hot water in the winter via the furnace.
I wonder how long it would last outside in the elements? It would probably need a little dedicated shelter of some sort. And I wonder if I'd be able to operate it outside when we're under "no burning" orders from May-October (I believe). I think it would be fine since it's all contained but I'd have to check. I'm also not finding whether it's EPA-certified. In Oregon, it has to be.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 17 Feb 2016 20:02
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Pellet stove can be set up to run/feed with low DC voltage, run it with battery power, always charging with a battery maintainer. So if you have 110VAC, via a generator or solar/inverter set up. Then when you shut the generator off etc, still runs and keeps you warm. If your off grid, you options will be limited for heat. A propane unit, but will it be a radiated heat or will it require a blower, which is a heavy electrical load.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 17 Feb 2016 20:17
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toyota_mdt_tech
My plan is to have the solar and a generator wired to the cabin with a transfer switch. Typical breaker box, outlets, etc. So, yeah, I'll have power but I want to be thrifty with it.
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Coyote Flats
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# Posted: 18 Feb 2016 13:39
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Hi Julie
I intend to keep my pellet stove and will install my wood stove beside it. I have large front entry so it's practical for my place. We are going to have a pellet plant located 15 km from my cabin so I will have work and availability to pellets. The bulk pellets I refer to are augered out of delivery truck into my storage container so no bags are used. This works out to 3.25 a bag presently
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mossberg fan
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# Posted: 18 Feb 2016 15:50
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englander 30nc, at home depot on clearance for $649 + $99 shipping, i met the freight driver and he put it in my pickup bed right off the truck, home depot marks these stoves down every year at this time. the stove specs say it heats 2200 sf. but dont believe that "estimate". this stove would be perfect for 600sf, plus the best part, it burns all night!
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PatrickH
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# Posted: 18 Feb 2016 18:09
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When we talked to our insurance co. about a gasification boiler we are going to install they said it had to be installed in the house and had to be U.L. listed and had to have class A chimney pipe,nothing about a t-stat,and installed per the manufacturers directions either by me or a pro they didn't care.So you may want to call your company.We have been using a pellet stove for a few years now a magnum rated at 50,000 btu it burns multiple fuels tons of heat,no auto ignition burns about 1 1/2 bags a day when set at 3 you have to clean the fine ash dust frequently,Needs power for blower,vent and stirrer.We were going to go with a pellet boiler but we didn't want to be at the mercy of the pellet market or deal with all those bags.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 18 Feb 2016 18:19
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Yeah, its sister, the Pleasant Hearth, has been my choice all along, mossberg fan.
I'm getting close to my move and build, though. and want to make sure I explore all of my options before it's a done deal. And I saw that Pleasant Hearth also has a really nice pellet stove that would suit.
I plan to insure my cabin and, on another thread, folks were discussing lender and insurance requirements that there be a thermostatically controlled heat source. I hadn't thought about that. I HAD thought about frozen pipes, though, if I were to go away for a few days. Loading up a pellet stove before I left and setting the thermostat on low would ensure that there would be a bit of heat in the cabin.
I'm still deciding. Pricing it out, considering the cost and convenience/inconvenience of pellets versus firewood, maintenance, reading forums, etc. I'm starting to lean a bit toward the pellet stove.
I need to decide quickly because I want my builder to factor in the thimble and its placement in my construction plans, as well as the fresh air pipe. I just saw a pellet stove thimble that has the fresh air hole and pipe as part of the assembly. Good idea.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 18 Feb 2016 18:36
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PatrickH
The problem I'm running into with the wood-burning furnace is the small ones aren't EPA-certified. Only the big, honking several thousand dollar models are. I'll be in Oregon, where the unit has to be EPA-certified. Even if I weren't going through the building inspection process OR I could sneak one in after the cabin had been inspected, the companies state they're not for sale or delivery in Oregon, Washington, and the other states that require EPA certification.
I liked the wood furnace idea since you could connect it to ductwork yet it was simple and burned like a wood stove. But I can't do it. 
So, it's pellet or wood. I'm a single woman so I won't be felling my own trees as a fuel source, lol. I'd have to buy wood or pay someone to fell my trees and chop it up. Would that cost more and would stacking and lugging wood be better or worse than having a couple tons of pellets delivered and moving the bags around on a dolly? Not sure, and that's what I'm trying to figure out. I've estimated that I'd need 2 tons of pellets per winter, based on what I've read, to heat my 400 sq. ft. cabin. That would be about $400 at retail for the season.
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mossberg fan
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# Posted: 18 Feb 2016 19:18
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julie,
sounds like your leaning towards the pelllet stove. you bring up a great point about procuring and seasoning a wood source. lots of work, if you cut your own trees, split your own wood, you will be busy and sore. by the time i put a piece of firewood in my woodstove, i estimate i have picked up that one piece of firewood at least 6-8 seperate times before i actually burn it.
1. drop tree, cut into 8 ft logs, put in truck
2. get home unload truck
3. put unsplit round on splitter
4.stack splits in woodshed
5. bring splits in house and stack near stove and on porch
6.put in fire
thats alot of reps, no gym membership needed! i love burning with wood, but it is more work and messy as well. (bark pieces and ashes). good luck on your choice
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 18 Feb 2016 20:12
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Thanks, mossberg fan! I figured I'd be covered for the first season, what with all of the trees that will have to come down for my cabin and driveway construction. I could pay someone to cut firewood for me and/or offer logs in trade for that and a bit of milling.
But after the first year, I'd be on my own. I couldn't keep harvesting my own enough to feed a wood stove all season every year. Nor would I necessarily want to do that.
You're so right about it being a workout! Real life is! I don't understand women who pay for gym memberships AND pay for people to do their housework and yardwork. Especially the ones who don't have jobs outside the home! Geez, after my husband died, I was a single mum, had a full-time job AND took care of the house and yard. Stayed pretty darn fit, lol.
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rockies
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# Posted: 18 Feb 2016 22:50
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Hi. I don't want a wood stove in my cabin at all. Despite the "romance" of having a fire, the amount of floor space taken up by even a small wood stove is anywhere from 25-49 square feet (5x5 up to 7x7) for the fireproof pad".
When you're using it you have to bring the dirty, moldy, bug covered wood inside and then carry out the ash and debris after the fire has gone out. Soot, smoke, cleaning the chimney pipe - a romantic version of hell.
PLUS! For maybe half the year you don't use it. The weather's too hot so it just takes up space. AND all you get is space heat from it - what about heating water?
A lot of people think "solar" for hot water, but when you really want hot water it's usually the middle of winter and the solar panels don't work that well. Or they spend thousands for a specific "solar hot water system" that will work in cold weather like evacuated tubes.
I say get yourself an INDOOR wood burning furnace and put it in a separate little outbuilding. Run radiant floor tubing underground to heat the cabin and you'll get hot water for sinks, shower and laundry from the same water jacket in the unit for free. You can even heat several out buildings from the same furnace. You could even run it in the summer for hot water and not wind up heating the whole cabin.
The nice thing about an indoor furnace is that you wouldn't be standing out in the rain or snow loading it like you'd have to with an outdoor furnace. An example of an indoor furnace would be the Empyre Elite 100.
http://profab.org/product.php?id=1
A hopefully helpful rant.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 19 Feb 2016 01:14 - Edited by: Julie2Oregon
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rockies
This is exactly my ideal. EPA-approved, can be used for hot water, and not a behemoth.
BUT I looked up the price. The least expensive model is $8K. 
That's the catch-22 with wood-burning furnaces. The units that are simple, would work well for my application, and that I can afford aren't EPA-approved. Those that are EPA-approved are far more than I need and/or are way out of my price range.
But your "wood stove hell" depiction, LOL, is why I'm leaning toward the pellet stove. Less mess, cleaner burn, no long chimney/stove pipe to have to clean. I think the pellet stove pipe will be easier for me to maintain.
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mossberg fan
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# Posted: 19 Feb 2016 05:37
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so many choices! i tell you what, when the power goes out, solar craps, or generator craps, you just cant beat a good, ol' skool woodstove, you can even burn furniture or pallets if you had to. thats the part that scares me about pellets or coal, you have to hope the price doesnt skyrocket, i like rockies suggestion too. that looks like a great boiler, i just dont have $8k
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Shadyacres
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# Posted: 19 Feb 2016 06:37 - Edited by: Shadyacres
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Just remember when you buy a pellet stove , you get what you pay for. I have a Harman and I used it this winter at the cabin , ( just on weekends) and have not had one problem with it. I get to the cabin , turn knob to on and that is it. I really only gave it a real cleaning beginning of Jan. before I went to have my operation.
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Shadyacres
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# Posted: 19 Feb 2016 06:41
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I also forgot to mention that I bought the more expensive pellets for the same reason. Get what you pay for. I bought Barefoot pellets. I think I paid 250 a ton vs 225 to 240 for cheaper brands. They burn hotter with less ash.
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Topper
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# Posted: 19 Feb 2016 13:58
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Quoting: mossberg fan the part that scares me about pellets or coal, you have to hope the price doesnt skyrocket,
Very true. Or that a link in the supply chain doesn't break. All you need is a pellet-manufacturing workers, dock workers, or truck drivers strike, or the like...
Here we have two barges that supply most everything to our State. Last month, while one barge was down -- being retrofitted to Natural Gas. The second barge went down with mechanical problems. Our store shelves were quite empty for some time!
I'll pass when it comes to depending on pellets...
As an aside, for every complaint about woodstoves, I suspect an equal complaint could be made against ANY other method of heating.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 19 Feb 2016 14:04
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Shadyacres
I'm researching these things carefully. I have a decent budget for a stove. I've researched pellets, too, and apparently some of the best pellets come from Oregon and Douglas Fir. Blazer pellets are supposed to be high quality and they're available at a bunch of stores near my property. Costwise, it helps to live near where the product is produced.
I'm going to have a storage shed and am doing this during the off-season for heating so if I can pick up a few ton of pellets at a discounted price during the summer and store them in my shed, I will certainly do so.
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Coyote Flats
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# Posted: 19 Feb 2016 18:19
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Hi Julie this morning I went to work early and had my generator running and pellet stove on but when I got home 8 hours later first thing I noticed getting out of my vehicle was my generator wasn't running . Fortunately my propane heater came on and kept temperature above freezing. They make some really good direct vent wall heaters which require no power and have a thermostat. It likely saved me from freezing up today
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NorthRick
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# Posted: 19 Feb 2016 19:25
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While it may be blasphemy, I'm going to ask anyway. Why not heating oil?
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 19 Feb 2016 19:38
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Topper
I'd be stocking up at the beginning of the season for the whole season. The likelihood of some lengthy (as in more than 2 months) delay in supplying any one of the 6 stores in town that sells premium pellets is very, very small. But the likelihood of my being snowed in on the mountain and really not wanting to drive 26 miles because I was running out unexpectedly would be a reality. That would be my concern for any fuel, whether it be wood for the stove, propane, gasoline, what have you.
So I'll have a few pallets delivered early each season and the bags stacked up in my shed. Then I won't have to concern myself with it.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 19 Feb 2016 19:48
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Quoting: NorthRick While it may be blasphemy, I'm going to ask anyway. Why not heating oil?
Wow, an oil burner at West Coast prices? (I'm even taking out of the equation my aversion to having to have an oil tank on my property, finding a truck to come up the mountain to fill it, and the inefficiency. I still have the sticker shock and nightmares from that experience in New England.) Oil isn't going to stay this low forever, and an oil furnace with accoutrements would be overkill for a small cabin, I think.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 19 Feb 2016 19:50
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Coyote Flats
You use a generator, pellet stove and a DV propane heater? Is your cabin large?
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NorthRick
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# Posted: 19 Feb 2016 20:06
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You're right, oil prices will eventually go back up. However, when it does, so will every other fuel - including wood.
I've seen oil stoves with efficiency ratings right there with wood stoves, natural gas or propane. Something like this:
https://www.kumastoves.com/Store/ProductDetails/arctic
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Coyote Flats
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# Posted: 19 Feb 2016 20:08
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Julie I use a generator fairly often because during the winter ,days are short when your as far north as I am. So my solar doesn't charge batteries a lot of the time.I have propane for backup heat, hot water , range and fridge. My cabin is to big actually I would never build it as big now but at the time it seemed ok. I am around 1200 square ft. I have been looking for someone interested in staying with me and sharing expenses and work load. I haven't found anyone yet. My friend 4 km away has smaller cabin and its a lot easier to manage everything. I'm surrounded by pine forest so I'm adding a wood stove as well. Im 60 km from town and you need to have backup our forecast for tonight is -30C and -35 C with wind chill
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rockies
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# Posted: 19 Feb 2016 20:37
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The main problem I have with pellets is the need to consistently have to go into town and buy a 50-100 lb bag and bring them home. Of course, maybe there are ways of getting a ton or so delivered once a year, but where to put them to keep them dry? And do you have road access to get the truck in. What if there is a pellet shortage? Each person installing a pellet stove now needs pellets. How many manufacturers are there near you.
I also find it kind of ironic that someone is cutting down a tree in the woods, hauling it away, chopping it up, processing it, bagging it and delivering it out to you.....a person living in the woods.
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rockies
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# Posted: 19 Feb 2016 21:33
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A site with LOTS of wood stoves and furnaces.
http://woodstoves.net/furnaces.htm
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