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Hardworking James
Member
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# Posted: 5 May 2016 13:56
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Hello everyone, I'm new here!
Let me introduce myself:
My name is James, I'm 26 years old and I live In Toronto Ontario Canada. I work as an apprentice plumber for a small company in the western regions of Toronto and I've recently considered going off grid.
I'm young and like many people nowadays I've considered buying a house. As many of you know, buying a house is very expensive and you have to dedicate all your life paying off the mortgage and other expenses associated with it. Well, I don't want that and in today's economy things are getting ridiculously expensive!
What matters to me most is to have a shelter above my head and be able to survive.
I'm really good at budgeting and saving money, so I think I can afford going off grid.
I've considered buying a piece of land and buy a bunch of shipping containers (6 of them at 40ft each) and weld them together to create a medium size home.
I'll probably have them above ground on a gravel/cement foundation and I'll buy everything that's needed to make it livable, such as: septic system, plumbing/sanitation system, electrical equipment/board, air/ventilation system, solar panels, water tank, insulation (sprayed ceramic coating insulation), generators, water filtration systems and others.
First, I have to buy a piece of land and go from there.
I was wondering if container homes are legal in Ontario and what building codes do I have to meet in order to pass inspection?
This question is probably very broad since very municipality has it's own building code. However, I want to get a general idea of how the code works.
I understand the government of Ontario wants all houses to have power and electricity for safety reasons (such as clean water for drinking and electricity for smoke alarms). However, I think I've got the solution for that! I can always buy a battery-powered smoke alarm and carbon dioxide detector as well as a water generator (atmospheric water generator) for clean water.
Do you live in a container home? What would you advise me to do and look for?
Thank you!
James
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bldginsp
Member
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# Posted: 5 May 2016 14:24
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Hi James- welcome to the forum.
People have converted shipping containers to habitable structures and done so with permits, but I think by the time you did all the work necessary to make the whole thing comply with the codes you will have spent a lot of money.
A few things to consider:
Containers have heavily treated plywood floors to prevent rot. Do you want that in your house?
Containers are meant to last 10-15 years at most then get cut up for scrap. Unless covered by a roof or carefully maintained they will eventually rust through.
Ventilation can be a problem with containers. If you are living in it you will make moisture which will condense on the walls, if not ventilated and insulated.
To avoid these problems you can build a wood roof over it and frame in wood walls for insulation etc. but if you are going to do all that, why do you need a container?
Containers are best for containing, in my opinion
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DaveBell
Moderator
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# Posted: 5 May 2016 15:36
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I went down that road for awhile and then let the idea go. Not cost effective.
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Hardworking James
Member
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# Posted: 5 May 2016 16:26
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What do you think is the most cost effective solution?
bldginsp
If I'm not mistaken, I think only used containers have dangerous chemicals. I'm planning to buy either new or lightly used containers and I'll inquire if they are sprayed with dangerous chemicals.
Concerning moisture and condense on the walls, I'm planning to ventilate and insulate them (spray foam insulation or ceramic coating).
DaveBell
I'm willing to spend about $50,000 Canadian or less.
Could you describe your experience on building a shelter and the costs associated with it? Did you need a permit to build the shelter, and could you elaborate more on that?
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silverwaterlady
Member
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# Posted: 5 May 2016 16:55
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Well I hauled containers for a living.
I would never consider using one to live in.
All containers are used in shipping overseas. They are sprayed with multiple poisons to combat nasties from overseas.
They also leak and once they are beyond repair go on the market where people that don't know any better buy them for storage or home building.
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 5 May 2016 17:04
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James, before spending too much time thinking about using containers first pick an area or two you like. Then do some research with the city/township/county, whatever to see what codes you need to meet. Most places that are close to other people and in particular big cities, will have very definite rules that need following. You got to know the rules before thinking about alternative housing.
I do think that a container can make an excellent outbuilding for equipment and tool storage.
How much does a new container cost? I think 6 would eat a chunk of that $50K CDN in a hurry. I could probably do more and have less trouble using some of those CanFor products we buy down here in NM.
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DaveBell
Moderator
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# Posted: 5 May 2016 18:20
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James, it was not cost effective for me. My cabin site is up on a mountain and too far from the closest port. I didn't want to be restricted by all the seven foot widths once walls were installed. I Googled Toronto Shipping Containers and there was a lot of info. Post pics of your project. Good Luck.
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ChuckDynasty
Member
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# Posted: 5 May 2016 18:31 - Edited by: ChuckDynasty
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Three 20x8x8 containers welded together.
http://www.tincancabin.com/2013/11/its-finished/
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Ditchmonkey
Member
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# Posted: 5 May 2016 18:54
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There's a blog out there where a guy meticulously documents his container build. Once it was all done he create a detailed post about why he wouldn't do it again. If I find that blog I'll post it.
More cons:
1. You aren't just wood working anymore. You are now cutting, grinding, and welding metal. More skills, more tools.
2. Things like windows and doors are difficult to seal against the irregular container sides.
I think this is a fad that seems neat on the surface, but fails to be desirable when properly researched.
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Steve961
Member
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# Posted: 5 May 2016 20:05
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Ditchmonkey:
I believe you are talking about my blog post below:
The Shipping Container Cabin in Perspective
If you read it you will find that I do not regret building my container cabin at all. In fact, I would definitely do it again. The thing is, most people think it's easier and cheaper building with containers than traditional construction. I am here to tell you that it absolutely is not. My container cabin cost about $36,000 for 480 square feet (external). After building my cabin I ran the numbers and an identical sized traditional cabin would have only cost about $20,500.
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bldginsp
Member
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# Posted: 5 May 2016 20:22
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If you do most of the work, $50,000 C will buy you a nice basic wood frame house.
Single family residential construction methods have been refined by thousands of people for 100 years with several simple goals in mind-
1- most square footage for the least money
2- easiest and least expensive means of achieving a certain standard of safety
3- easiest means of construction in all areas (plumbing, elec, heating, framing)
Every item in construction has been refined and re-engineered to be as inexpensive, effective, and easy to use as possible. There's a reason that 1/2" plywood is actually 15/32, and that 2x4s are spaced at 16", not 14 or 18.
Point is you have available to you the least expensive way to make a house that does all you want it to do- shed water, stay warm, last a long time etc. if there was a cheaper way, people would already be doing it, and they are. So long as framing lumber is cheap, standard wood frame construction is the least expensive way to go.
I'm planning to get a container to use as a secure tractor barn.
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bldginsp
Member
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# Posted: 5 May 2016 20:47 - Edited by: bldginsp
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Steve961's experience is quite instructive. Nice build, Steve.
Notice, the construction required building a foundation and roof, both very similar to a conventional build. So all that was saved was building the walls and floor. Walls are the cheapest and easiest part of conventional framing, usually go up in a day. You can build a lot of floor and walls for the cost of buying containers in good condition and having them delivered.
Steve's result achieves his purpose- that place won't get broken into. I hope the future does not require that we all have to build a Fort Knox to be safe and secure.
One other thing- I believe the plywood floors in containers are treated with preservative when new. Other spraying may take place later, but even a new one will expose you to some chemicals.
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Ontario lakeside
Member
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# Posted: 5 May 2016 23:15
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Hey James
Good advice above. Ive seen some amazing container houses but they are expensive. You and I live in a country where lumber is plentiful and cheap. Stick framing with attention to using standard sized units will give you the most bang for your buck and be faster. Also the building inspector will leave you alone (mostly)
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Steve961
Member
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# Posted: 5 May 2016 23:16
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Thanks bldginsp, I appreciate the comments. You are right about the walls being the cheapest part of the build. I try to tell people that shipping containers are basically a very expensive form of siding - especially if you don't need the security.
One of the oddest things with most container builds, at least to me, is that they take a perfectly good container and then cut a lot of holes in it to put windows and doors. This destroys the two best features of containers - security and weather tightness. At the point you do this, you might as well just build with traditional materials and then side it with metal panels. You will get the low maintenance of steel with the low cost of traditional construction.
In regards to the plywood floors being treated, yes they are. Many builders replace them with new plywood. I encapsulated mine with epoxy and then added a subfloor on top as a physical barrier. I am comfortable with that decision, although I know others would not be.
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silverwaterlady
Member
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# Posted: 5 May 2016 23:38
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The paint used on containers is also toxic. Google is your friend do some research before you decide to go this route.
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Steve961
Member
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# Posted: 5 May 2016 23:59
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Quoting: silverwaterlady The paint used on containers is also toxic. Google is your friend do some research before you decide to go this route.
Toxic, in what way? If you are talking heavy metals such as lead, then maybe. I have been in contact with many owners who have tested their containers for lead and found nothing. Would I breathe in dust from sanding the paint in a container? Never. Neither would I do that in most of the older homes in my community. The good news about paint with potential heavy metals is that it's very easy to encapsulate - with more paint. Just like millions of homes throughout America.
I'm more concerned with volatile organic compounds given off by plywood, insulation, carpet, and furniture than I am about lead in paint.
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silverwaterlady
Member
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# Posted: 6 May 2016 01:41
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Lead and zinc paint and depending on the pigments in the zinc paint there are other toxic chemicals.
This may be off topic but I just have to say that a good many of us on this site have done exactly what James is trying to avoid,spending a lifetime working to pay off a mortgage and build a cabin.
It just kinda rubs me the wrong way. So I'm done with this topic.
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bushbunkie
Member
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# Posted: 6 May 2016 07:39
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Hey James,
I'm from Toronto now living in the Sarnia area. Folks in the US seem to have a lot more flexibility than we do with building codes, so do lots of homework.
As you know our codes are crazy...you would have to go to an unorganized township way out of the Toronto area and then even then, they might say no. As Ontario Lakeside said....lumber is pretty cheap....I'm building a shed with pretty well all recycled wood up at my cabin on the Bruce Penninsula.
Research Ontario bylaws extensively so you are not disappointed...each municipality is also a little different, so if you like a particular area of Ontario, start there.
If you want to go off grid, there are small places for sale that already have small cabins on them and fall under the radar because they are grandfathered in before the bylaws changed. Good luck with the dream...I do not miss TO at all!!!!
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 6 May 2016 09:37
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IMO Shipping Containers make for good storage and even work spaces. If your needs are minimal then a couple welded & braced together can make a decent hunt camp / cabin IF the Sea Cans are cheap enough to start with and do the work yourself.
You put your budget @ 50K... you should consider that both a Well & Septic system will put you out between 15-20 K and the closer you get to Toronto with the ever tightening rules the costs escalate... Many here can tell you the horror stories about that. Stick Built on Slab will run you less for your sizing and give you more options and capabilities as the Sea Cans will force many limits on you thereby constraining what you can do and how you can do it.
FYI: My 6" well drilling (cable drill which fractures the rock as opposed to bore drilling which has to go deeper) cost me $35 per foot + $10 per foot for casing which has to go 10' into rock and be 2' above grade level, + $1,200 for Well Seal, Certification & registration... My well is 230' deep in banded granite.
Here is a LINK to Ontario Map: Well records database When you find an area you like and are looking at a property, check out how deep the neighbouring wells go, look at the dates drilled, how and who did it... It's mostly all there.
Lesson Learned Dept: (I use mine for storage +)
1- Before buying, you want to see the Sea Can's check them out and make sure THAT is what is delivered to you. Many of the broker's in Toronto are selling from inventory lists and often haven't seen them or use 3rd party inspectors, so be aware of this.
2- All Sea Can's have heavily treated plywood floors, not only for rot resistance but bug protection as well. The panels can be removed and replaced (they are screwed to the framework) which is a very arduous task.
3- These are made from Corten Steel and therefore are more difficult to weld, you need a serious Gas Mig or Tig to weld onto that steel - This is a PITA which adds expense.
4- The primer used on the Sea Cans is a heavy Iron Oxide which is great for rust protection but again tricky if your "working the steel".
5- When sanding, grinding, cutting or removing the wood you NEED to wear a NIOSH Certified Mask !
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Steve961
Member
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# Posted: 6 May 2016 11:03
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Quoting: Steve_S IMO Shipping Containers make for good storage and even work spaces.
You are absolutely right. If I didn't need the security for my cabin I would still have a container or two to store my tools, ATV's, etc. A great build I saw used two container spaced apart with a cabin/storage area built into the roof. This is probably the most practical way to use containers for most folks.
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Ontario lakeside
Member
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# Posted: 6 May 2016 11:47
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steve961 That is a great design. I really want that!!
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Don_P
Member
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# Posted: 6 May 2016 21:17
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So, each side of that cost what, about $4k?
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bldginsp
Member
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# Posted: 6 May 2016 21:35
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Where I am, containers in good condition are around $2000, delivery extra.
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 6 May 2016 21:47
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Just up the road (figuratively as it's in Pembroke) a moving / shipping company sells Sea Cans where I bought mine.
20' End of Life = $2200
40' End of Life = $2500
20' One Trip = $3000 & 40' One Trip $3700
Delivery is free within 100Kms
** End of Life means at least 10 yrs service, up to 15 yrs max.
Prices may have changed since I bought mine.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 6 May 2016 23:17
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Wow- 2200 for an end of life 20 footer. Here those are 1400 or make an offer. But I'm close to major shipping ports.
One trip 20 footers are about 2500, one trip 40s are over 3000.
One trip 20 foot high cube (9 feet tall instead of 8) are like 3500 for one trip. High cube 40s are over 4000.
Some include delivery, most not.
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Ontario lakeside
Member
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# Posted: 6 May 2016 23:44
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Steve S. could you share your source? Im in the market for 1
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 7 May 2016 09:07
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Here's the link to Cassidy's
Cassidy's Moving & Storage used-shipping-containers-to-buy
They are not listing prices on the site but a quick call can sort that out. The good thing with these guys, is you can go to their yards and actually look at the containers and select the one you want.
I bought mine out of Pembroke but Cassidy's is all over and so I would assume the Sea Cans are available at their different yards / compounds, possibly closer to you.
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Hardworking James
Member
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# Posted: 9 May 2016 14:21
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Thanks for the helpful replies, everyone!
I'm currently reading your comments and I'm finding them very helpful. I'll look for other ways to build an efficient and affordable house.
James
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bldginsp
Member
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# Posted: 9 May 2016 23:15
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And I bet, James, with a lot of hard work you will do just that! Keep us posted.
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Ditchmonkey
Member
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# Posted: 10 May 2016 12:22
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Quoting: Steve961 I believe you are talking about my blog post below: The Shipping Container Cabin in Perspective
Ha, that is the one! Nice work on that!
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