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jasonjmw
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# Posted: 4 Jun 2016 19:48 - Edited by: jasonjmw
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Hi all
I've learned a lot off this site and I thank you all!!!
we have a 16x32 cabin in ontario.
Need some in sight from you offgrid experts ;)
I'm in the process of doing the electrical. We have 8 outlets and 5 light fixture which will have LED bulbs.
I'm running everything with 12/2 romex
we got a free electrical panel brand new from a friend (it's over kill but it was free) it's a 100amp ezr panel CPM120EZR
it has 6 -15 amp breakers 1 pole
1-2pole 30a breaker
1-2pole 40a breaker
Now I'm wiring a 30a marine shore power receptacle so I can plug in my 3000w champion generator and from that outlet run 10/2 wire into the panel to power the cabin (I haven't done any wiring as of yet but have it all ready to install)
I want to incorporate solar into the panel so I can have quiet time at night and still have power.
I bought 2 235w 24v Panels
40 mppt controller
2 140ah 12v amg batteries (for now)
Xantrex 2000w hsf inverter charger with built in transfer switch (hardwire ac in and out)
It's a complete solar kit that I had sourced out.
now my question is how do I incorporate both the generator and inverter into this panel? Our power consumption is not high and I know not to exceed the limits of the inverter or battery bank. Thats why I'd run the generator separately(not plugged into the receptacle ) for high demand items and tools
Thanks in advance for any help
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creeky
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# Posted: 4 Jun 2016 20:46
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You have a lot of panel for small batteries. Your batts give you about 1.5 kw of power at 50% dod. 700 watts at 20%.
So you'll be running the gen a bit I suspect.
Nice looking set up tho. Take some of that 10/2 and run it from your inverter into the panel. That's your power. Run the genny lines into the inverter/charger. There'll be a diagram in your manual.
That Xantrex looks okay. Kinda low on the efficiency. But nice to see they have some okay new stuff now.
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jasonjmw
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# Posted: 5 Jun 2016 07:38
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Hi creeky
Thanks for the reply
I realize the batteries are small. I intend to buy L16s to relace,and increase my bank when money allows.
The way you suggested to wire it, is what I was hoping to do. But the manual shows 2 panels....
I attached a screen shot of how the manual shows to do it.
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NorthRick
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# Posted: 5 Jun 2016 12:39
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Can that inverter run off of 24v dc or is it just 12v? Here's why it matters; drawing 2,000 watts from a 12v source is 167 amps. That's a lot. You'll need 2/0 size wire to safely handle that without a lot of voltage drop. I bet the inverter's terminal lugs are not big enough to handle that size wire.
If you go 24v, the amps drop by half, so 84. Smaller wire, easier to handle, and probably fits the terminals on the inverter.
The other issue which creeky already pointed out, is your battery bank should be bigger. You can use what you have, but understand when you have money to upgrade, you need to replace the existing bank, not add to it.
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beachman
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# Posted: 5 Jun 2016 13:03
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Jason, I am in the process of about the same installation. I agree with the comments on battery size - you need more. I have 2 L16's at 370 ah. I am running 12v so my cables from battery to panel are about 3ft and #1AWG. I use a 20 amp breaker from my one 235w panel to the batteries, have a couple SPD's, and have the system grounded at one point. The only bond is in my 1000 w puresine inverter. The whole system works awesome so far. With a step up in battery power, you should do fine.
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jasonjmw
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# Posted: 6 Jun 2016 02:38
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if I use 10/2 and run it from the inverter into the panel. Then Run the generator lines into the inverter/charger.
Will the generator bypass the inverter when i have the genny running, and essentially the inverter will just charge the batteries with the generator? Or am I seeing this wrong?
I will replace the 2--12v AGMS(140ah per battery) soon enough with a L16 battery bank of 8 or so batteries
Thanks for everyone's help much appreciated
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beachman
Member
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# Posted: 6 Jun 2016 05:56
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Would not bother with more than 4 L16 batteries if all you have is a few outlets and LED lights. You might want to rough out your power needs before sizing the system. I guess it depends on what you might be planning to run from the outlets. 12v stuff is more accessable and cheaper but the wire costs are more due to the heavier wire needed. Others here can give much better info.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 6 Jun 2016 15:54
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Quoting: jasonjmw Will the generator bypass the inverter when i have the genny running, and essentially the inverter will just charge the batteries with the generator?
Check the user manual/guide. Many inverter/chargers will pass the generator AC input through the inverter via the inverter AC output, while also using some of the AC from the generator to power the battery charger side. Some inverter/chargers will allow you to program the maximum battery charger amps.
IMO, if you are going to have 4 - L16 batteries you should have avoided 12 volts and gone for a 24 volt system. Kinder to the lead acid type of battery if you can eliminate parallel battery connections. Eight L-16 on 12 volts makes 4 parallel strings which is generally recognized as a poor configuration. Parallel strings can lead to some batteries being discharged more than others, due to differences in internal resistance. That then leads to some batteries being over charged and others undercharged.
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creeky
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# Posted: 6 Jun 2016 18:00
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I assumed the inverter charger was using a built in ATS. Is this the case? I didn't look.
If you're going to use your system as a reliable RE provider skip the lead acid batteries. Seriously. They are a waste of money. Terribly inefficient. Toxic. Huge environmental overhead. Dumb.
Lithium is the proven lowest cost per cycle. You can source used Volt batteries online in the US quite easily now apparently.
But good quality lithium LifePO4 batts are also readily available.
There is no way in hangnation that I would consider another FLA. Been there. Done that.
And I can't stress enough, to all. Lead is dead.
I attach your photo modified.
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AK Seabee
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# Posted: 6 Jun 2016 21:42
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Creeky, in looking at your mock up I noted the inverter is grounded directly.
Is it ok for thd panel to be grounded directly and the inverter ground going to the panel?
The reason I ask Is my intent was to use a genny for power all along and wired accordingly. This worked well initially since I already had the genny.
Times have changed and I am in the middle of installing a small solar system. I know I will have to make some changes however only want to do so if necessary.
My intent is not to hijack this thread however I am curious and not ready to start a solar thread on my own also others viewing this may have the same question.
My apology in advance Jason
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 7 Jun 2016 08:12
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@AK, it may be more prudent to stat your own thread where you can fully describe what you are thinking on and the means / methods to accomplish it. Post what you have already, what you would like to install and what your 'target' goal is. Grounding & Isolation are key areas with solar... in essence you have to ground both sides and protect from lightning & surges.
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AK Seabee
Member
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# Posted: 7 Jun 2016 22:18
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Steve, not interested in starting my own thread just yet. Far to much research left to do on my end. Enjoy!
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gbpdave1
Member
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# Posted: 2 Jul 2016 00:01
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I have a question that hopefully someone can help me with. I am modifying a shipping container and turning it into a cabin, I have wired the cabin up like a normal home with a 100 Amp panel along with some receptacles and ceiling boxes for lights and power to operate a few small appliances. The question I have is that I purchased a 9000 watt generator to to give me some power on occasion but I am looking to see what size wire do I need to run from the generator to the panel in order for it power the panel correctly? Any help would be much appreciated!
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creeky
Member
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# Posted: 2 Jul 2016 07:51
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gbpdave1. What loads are you running? Are you hooking up the 240 or the 120? What distance are you running the cable?
Basically, you should be okay on 120 with 14g. I went 12g because that is what I had. 240 is easier. Just buy 240 wire and you're all set.
Ha. First time I hooked up the 240 plug I missed one of the hot wires. My pump would start but not keep running. Then I rechecked the plug wiring. Doh!!!
AK. Grounding is a mystery to me. In some cases (there's a pun here) the grounding wire on the inverter is for the box not for the outlet plug.
Its really hard to get a good ground on solar. You have DC and AC to consider. The two, or so I've been told, shouldn't be mixed.
Perhaps someone with more electrical knowledge can weigh in here.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 2 Jul 2016 22:37
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gbpdave1
Is that 9000 watts coming to the panel as 240 VAC or 120 VAC??
What will be the wire length of run from generator to the panel?
Without that data any answer is a guess, maybe a good guess, but still a guess.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 2 Jul 2016 23:40 - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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Quoting: gbpdave1 The question I have is that I purchased a 9000 watt generator to to give me some power on occasion but I am looking to see what size wire do I need to run from the generator to the panel in order for it power the panel correctly? Any help would be much appreciated!
Dave, over 40 amps, this would be a minimum of 8AWG. I would run 6AWG for a 9000 watt generator. This will cover the 40 amps and be good up to 60 amps at 220VAC. Run all 4 wires, line, line neutral and a ground. You may not use all of them, but have it all in place before you close up any walls. Run a good #4 solid ground wire to a ground rod too from the panel.
IS there a 220VAC plug on the generator? If so, what is the amp rating on it?
I have a Honda EU6500is for my house, its 30 amps at 220VAC, so a 10AWG was adequate. But at 9000 watts, bigger gennie. Run 220 to your panel if its available.
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gbpdave1
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# Posted: 3 Jul 2016 00:35
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Hi - Thanks for the suggestions on what to run. The generator is a Champion and I have 240 available from it and has its own circuit breaker. I have to check the info on it as far as what amps it will give. As far as the distance from the generator to the cabin/container I was planning on buying 50' of #10-4 wire the panel is only 6' off the ground but I felt giving some distance between the building and the generator for sound and fumes would be a good thing?! Question though: the panel came with a 100 amp breaker but I was thinking of pulling that one and putting in a 40 would that work with the #10 wire?
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gbpdave1
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# Posted: 3 Jul 2016 00:42
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As forgot to mention, I plan on grounding the panel with a couple of ground rods plus since this is a container (steel hull) even though I call it my cabin I thought it would be a good idea to have additional ground rods on opposite ends to protect the cabin from lighting strikes does that sound over-reacting or not??
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 3 Jul 2016 12:22 - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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Quoting: gbpdave1 but I was thinking of pulling that one and putting in a 40 would that work with the #10 wire?
No, for 10AWG, you dont want to exceed 30 amps. If you have a 9000 generator, it should be rated higher overall. But the 220VAC outlet may only be a 30 ampere unit.
You will find 30 amps at 220VAC will run quite a bit. I have a Honda EU6500is wired into my home using the 240VAC 30A plug and it will run everything in my house, just not at once, ie electric dryer, electric hot water, electric range etc. With your cabin, that should be plenty.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 3 Jul 2016 12:31 - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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Quoting: gbpdave1 As forgot to mention, I plan on grounding the panel with a couple of ground rods plus since this is a container (steel hull) even though I call it my cabin I thought it would be a good idea to have additional ground rods on opposite ends to protect the cabin from lighting strikes does that sound over-reacting or not??
No, cost to drive in a pair of ground rods is minimal. Grounding on a generator fed panel can be tricky. We had extensive discussions on this. Normally a main panel, neutral and grounds are bonded, but in this case, may be isolated and the ground wire run from generator chassis (should be a spot for it) to cabin ground and also tied into container ground system and your ground rods. Run 4 wires, ie 10-3 with ground (will be a red, black, white and a bare) from generator to panel. Then you have plenty of options. You will need to remove bonding screw in panel and install a separate grounding bar (I suspect grounds and neutrals are not bonded now) and you dont even really have a true neutral with your generator (common "Y" point in stator winding)
Anyone else want to chime in on his grounding. Otherwise, you will have no real ground on your generator unless you put in a floating ground tied to your ground rod, bond container and generator chassis to it along with ground bar in panel that was added and isolated form neutral bar in there now.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 3 Jul 2016 13:28
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Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech Anyone else want to chime in on his grounding.
Determine whether or not this generator has an internal neutral - ground bond. Generators are supposed to have labeling that indicates whether or not the neutral is bonded to the frame. This will tell you whether or not to bond at the panel.
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creeky
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# Posted: 3 Jul 2016 15:17
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Also have a look at the distance between rods. As I understand it, you only want 1 ground point. So two rods tied together with 6 bare wire makes one large ground point.
Also. The loads at my cabin never exceed 2400 watts on surge.
Wiring a generator for 9000w draw is ... If you're running something that draws that hot, better to plug in directly.
"Any circuit fused for 30 amps must use a minimum of 10 ga copper or 8 ga alu. Longer runs may require an upgrade of wire size."
There are a number of good resources online with amperage charts and distance.
Obviously we don't know what kind of cabin you're constructing. But as its a container build that you discuss. I would guess your loads are pretty minimal.
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gbpdave1
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# Posted: 3 Jul 2016 20:58
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Ok then I will keep to a 30 amp main breaker. As far as the #10 wire distance is 50' pushing it out to far with a #10, should I only go with 25'? Another question about grounding the generator, first I do have a ground screw on the frame so with that can I run the ground wire from generator frame directly to the grounding rod instead of the panel or does it have to be the other way around?
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