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pi653
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# Posted: 8 Jun 2016 19:51
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Hello everyone,
I am very new to construction, I've been researching tiny houses for a while and they fascinate me, but that is not going to happen for me for a few years. However I am looking to build a shack in my parent's woods. I want it to be either 8x16 or 8x12. I can't do any sort of foundation but I was wondering if I could build it on stilts. I don't want anything fancy because of a tight tight budget. I was wondering if it would be possible to build it on 4x4x12 posts (maybe 6) dug 3 feet in the ground, with a couple bags of cement dumped in. This would suspend it 1 foot off the ground so I wouldn't need a foundation, but I was wondering if this would like blow over or anything. I'm not doing anything crazy just a little place to hangout, I do want a full roof (not sure on specifics yet) and I want it to be insulated, but I'm not putting appliances or anything extremely heavy in. My big main question is; How do I get it in the ground, How do I ensure stilts are standing straight up? do I build the frame then drop it in? or do I do each stilt individually and then build the frame? Again I have no previous experience with anything and I am on a tight budget. This is out in the woods I have to do everything by hand. Thank you all!
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rockies
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# Posted: 8 Jun 2016 20:42
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If you can't do any kind of foundation I would put it on skids. Build up some pressure treated 2 x 12's to create a 6 x 12 and then set two of them level on some concrete blocks resting on the ground. Build your floor platform on top of those and use some metal building ties to join the floor platform to the skids.
A shed roof at a low angle (maybe 3:12 pitch) is the simplest roof to make..
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Littlecooner
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# Posted: 8 Jun 2016 22:04
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If you used 6x6x12. you plan would be "rock solid". You need a few basic tools, a carpenters level ( the 2 foot or 3 foot length, a carpenters tape (25 feet) and a pair of post hole diggers. Do just what I did on my main cabin, pick a spot, dig a hole at least three feet deep. put your post in the hole, use carpenters level and brace it off, making it plum or perpendicular to the ground by checking the sides with the level and just cut some poles from brush in the woods to brace it off. Get a five gallon bucket and a few one gallon empty milk jugs, filled with water. buy a couple bags of "sacret" (pre mixed concrete mix in 80 pound bags). Use a shovel and mix concrete in the five gallon bucket in small batches and pour into the hole around the post. tamp in a little, check level and mix another batch and keep this up until the concrete is level with the ground. Next project, use tape, measure your 12 foot wide and dig the next hole, repeating above steps, insuring second post is plum and exactly 12 feet on the outs from the first. Third post is the geometry from high school, a 2 + b 2 = c 2. Also know as checking your diagonals. Need 8 feet over, then measure the 8 feet and then square the 8 feet and add the square of the 12 feet and take the square root, that is the exact distance from the first post for this thing to be square, same applies to thew fourth post and you have a complete square post frame to build your cabin around. Exact dimensions of 4 feet intervals makes the plywood on the outside fit with no cutting, etc. Do wall 8 foot high, etc. 12 foot post will work great and the 4x4 would work but I think you would be better pleased to add just a little here and go 6x6. They actually are 3 1/2 x 3 1/2 vs 5 1/2 x 5 1/2, do the math, a great deal more wood in the 6 inch post over the 4 inch post. go for it, it is how we all learned.
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Littlecooner
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# Posted: 8 Jun 2016 22:09
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some pictures of me doing exactly what I describe above using 8x8x14footers .
NorthPostinConcrete..jpg
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post_being_placed_in.jpg
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The_beginning_with_2.jpg
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Don_P
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# Posted: 8 Jun 2016 23:15 - Edited by: Don_P
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That is actually called post frame construction it is far stronger than pier and beam and more stable than skids. If the walls are fully sheathed, that braced wall creates a rigid plate that the posts extend down from. Simpson makes hangers that can connect the floor beams to the posts, don't hang them on bolts which can split the beam, put them in a saddle that wraps and supports them from the bottom  Generally up to a 12' 6x6 I can stand it up beside the hole, hug it tight and just lift and lower it into the hole sitting it on the concrete footing. As they get heavier I'll stand a board on the backside of the hole, tip and slide down the board onto the footing. A footing supports the post and spreads that load out over a much larger area of ground, I typically dig a 2'square hole and pour in 8" or more of concrete. 4 pcs of 1/2" rebar in a # pattern 3" up off the bottom of the pour to prevent the post from "punching through" the footing.
Rockies...very often architects draw pretty pictures and beyond that are generally out of their depth, as you are here. I like you but will repeat this as necessary.
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pi653
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# Posted: 9 Jun 2016 00:08
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Thats what i was wondering. Unfortunately everywhere i look treated 6x6x12 is double the price of a 4x4, so if id be good working with 4x4s i would prefer that (i am doing this at my parents place its probably only going to be up a few years before we burn it and ill be moving away anyways) i also drive a civic so im not sure i could even fit a 6x6 in the thing. But you think id only need 4 posts? I was considering maybe doing one every 8 feet and doing 6? I guess 4 6x6s would be almost the same price as 6 4x4s..
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Don_P
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# Posted: 9 Jun 2016 07:00 - Edited by: Don_P
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A good rule of thumb is not to set support posts more than 8' apart. A 4x4 will probably check out as long as the unsupported post height stays short, unless this is high snow or wind, or unless you invite your whole class over for a party.
Notice you are asking for exception due to budget, useful life, what car you drive... etc. Physics doesn't work that way. Gravity works the same for rich or poor. If the fair wind blows your poor shed into your rich neighbors Oldsmobile you'll find the laws of man do not work the same for rich and poor.
My guess is that you haven't budgeted yet and don't have enough to build this. Before you touch a shovel or hammer, draw a plan, stick by stick, we can help. Sketchup is a good free drawing program that is easy to use and useful for later when you build your house. With that plan you can make a materials list. With that entire list of everything you will need, you can go wander the aisles at the building supply and get prices. Then see if this is still a go or if it will simply suck you dry and not get finished. As a builder this is probably tougher than building, determining if the person can build and how much... you don't want to get stuck halfway and lose everything you put into it... make sense?
I do have a bit of problem with felling a tree that took half a century to grow, transporting and machining it... energy consumption all the way, consuming more resources to bring it home and build, then burning all of that in a couple of years. That is sort of the problem with the tiny house idea... it will likely create more waste than it prevents as these buildings die prematurely... a tent is probably a better idea.
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creeky
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# Posted: 9 Jun 2016 09:03
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pi653
I built pretty much what you're talking about. Mine is 8x16. I used 6 4x4s. My building is 4 feet off the ground.
I used 4x16. And then trimmed off the posts once I got the roof on. It's been standing for close to 5 years now. You'll notice it's surrounded by shrubs and trees so wind pressure hasn't been a problem. I did get a bit of lift from frost 2 winters that were really cold. No lift the first winter or this winter as it was mild.
You can have a look at my frame. Basically its a pole barn with no siding below. have a look here to see how to build a pole barn. Pole barns use very little wood so they're cheap to build.
Look forward to the build pics.
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pi653
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# Posted: 9 Jun 2016 10:31 - Edited by: pi653
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Quoting: Don_P Notice you are asking for exception due to budget, useful life, what car you drive... etc. Physics doesn't work that way. Gravity works the same for rich or poor. If the fair wind blows your poor shed into your rich neighbors Oldsmobile you'll find the laws of man do not work the same for rich and poor. My guess is that you haven't budgeted yet and don't have enough to build this. Before you touch a shovel or hammer, draw a plan, stick by stick, we can help. Sketchup is a good free drawing program that is easy to use and useful for later when you build your house. With that plan you can make a materials list. With that entire list of everything you will need, you can go wander the aisles at the building supply and get prices. Then see if this is still a go or if it will simply suck you dry and not get finished. As a builder this is probably tougher than building, determining if the person can build and how much... you don't want to get stuck halfway and lose everything you put into it... make sense? I do have a bit of problem with felling a tree that took half a century to grow, transporting and machining it... energy consumption all the way, consuming more resources to bring it home and build, then burning all of that in a couple of years. That is sort of the problem with the tiny house idea... it will likely create more waste than it prevents as these buildings die prematurely... a tent is probably a better idea.
You're right, i'm in college and im working 2 jobs just to pay for that, and even if i did have enough to pay for the full project i would not have the time. However, thats exactly what ive been telling myself for years and it is getting a bit routine, even once im graduated it will be the same story. I am not going to be able to knock this out in a couple of weeks it will probably take me the better part of a year to build and i do have a set of blueprints i am using for the building, however i need a different foundation and probably roof. Im not going to reconsider on building it but i can definitely change how im going about it. I am in no rush to get this complete, but i do want the best way to do this with it being kept in mind its not permanent. And regarding the waste, it's not different from a tree house, i get what youre saying but im not going to live in this shack, im building in my parents wooods. Im going to build it for me and my buddies to hangout in, I'll outgrow it and it will probably get scrapped because no one will want to maintain it. Thank you for your feedback
Quoting: creeky You can have a look at my frame. Basically its a pole barn with no siding below. have a look here to see how to build a pole barn. Pole barns use very little wood so they're cheap to build.
This site has a ton of info, thank you. If that an advantage to building 4 feet off the ground? I wanted it to be on the ground (still looking into skids) but i cant do a foundationn would it be better to do it further off the ground?
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creeky
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# Posted: 9 Jun 2016 11:32
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I did it so I could
a) see over the bushes. There's a nice view down across a hay field to a small river. Fun to watch the birds/seasons as one contemplates ...
b) fit in my envirolet composting toilet
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pi653
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# Posted: 9 Jun 2016 12:48
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Okay. Im still torn between stilts and skids. Skids would probably be a lot cheaper and work well for what i am doing, but stilts look a lot nicer. I will post again once ive started.
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Don_P
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# Posted: 9 Jun 2016 18:48
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As you make the post taller out of the ground the wind forces on that lever start to get ugly pretty fast... keep it as low as possible.
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rockies
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# Posted: 9 Jun 2016 19:51
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Don_P. Which metal hanger are you recommending to attach the floor beams to the posts?
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creeky
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# Posted: 9 Jun 2016 20:26
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I used nails. For the whole thing. Give a man a nail gun. 
Wind doesn't even shake the building.
Course I've only had one big 100km / 60 mph wind. Tho it does get a bit gusty in the winter. When the leaves are off the trees.
I've been meaning to put simpson strong-ties on the floor joists.
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Don_P
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# Posted: 9 Jun 2016 21:48
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Quoting: rockies Which metal hanger are you recommending to attach the floor beams to the posts?
I was thinking something like a Simpson HUCQ. The design process there is first determine loads and decide how you are going to support them. In a post frame for instance the roof can be supported on a beam just under the rafters that runs from post to post (I would lean towards doing this) or the rafters can be supported on studs which bear on the floor support beams.
Assume an 8x16 building with 6 posts, the roof for this example is bearing on a beam above so I'm omitting its load for now. The floor joists span ~8' (2x6's at their limit). The joists bear on ~8' long girders that span from post to post and rest in the concealed flange hangers. Need to find the size of the girder and hanger...
Half of the load on each joist rests on one girder at it's near end, half of the joist load rests on the girder at its far end. The tributary load on the girder then is 4' of joist span X 8' of girder span... 32 square feet. design load typically 40 lbs per square foot live load + 10 psf dead load (structure weight)... 50psf x 32sf= ~1600 lbs ... half the girder load is borne by the hanger at one end, half rests in the hanger on the other post. Hanger design load 1600lbs/2 = 800 lbs The hanger needs to be rated for at least this for a floor bearing only setup.
Girder size...
1600lbs on an 8' span
http://www.timbertoolbox.com/Calcs/beamcalc.htm
I won't bore you through that but a single 2x10 or double 2x8 of good material is up to that load. There is a double 2x8 concealed flange hanger HUSC28-2, looks to be good for about 1500 lbs, we need 800, check.
The creeky way... is not correct but the path to finding the number of nails per connection, go to the awc.org connections calc, you are in single shear. If you are putting a single 16' 2x10 across the posts the total floor load would be both 8' bays, or 3200 lbs. The load distribution of a continuous spanning girder gets fun 3/16 is borne on the corner post, 5/8 of the load on the mid, 3/16 on the other corner. The calc will give you allowable load per nail, that was how to figure load at each connection... I'd run a treated 2x4 vertically under the 2x10 down to the footing and nail it to the 4x4, now it is wood resting on wood, no fancy connector, a plus. Sort of getting into the two methods of framing a post frame inside or over the posts.
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Don_P
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# Posted: 9 Jun 2016 21:52 - Edited by: Don_P
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Oh, you have a dbl 2x8 or single 2x10 girder supporting 2x6 joists. Rather than joist hangers nail a ledger of 2x under the joists, nail it well, the ledger on the dbl 2x8 is narrow and subject to rolling, on the 2x10 it can be a 2x4 so has to slide, true shear rather than a roll out... I'm liking creeky's over the pole method more at the moment for affordable.
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creeky
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# Posted: 9 Jun 2016 22:45
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that is one thing with the nail gun. bang bang bang ... gee this is fun. my worry is that too many nails and I'm hanging all that weight on a wooden mesh towel. so I tried to balance the # of nails to the strength per.
or that's how I remember it 
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Don_P
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# Posted: 9 Jun 2016 23:16 - Edited by: Don_P
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Exactly, or put the support under the girder and you only need enough nails to hold the girder to the post, the support 2x4 under it is bearing the load then... note to check crushing.
Attached is where my mind wandered, using 6x6's allows the girder to be notched into the post, a few nails will hold it in place, the 2x4 ledger is under the 2x6 joists attached to the 2x10 girder ( a girder is a beam as is a joist, a girder is a beam that supports other beams, now you know). Then a couple of inset horizontal girts to take the siding and the roof support beam, need snow load to design a roof. Anyway one idea.
Note, oversizing the floor perimeter framing is not a bad idea... how many times have we seen a deck hanging on that girder next.
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Don_P
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# Posted: 9 Jun 2016 23:34
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When you look at that picture think about what the full length posts are doing when the walls are fully sheathed, they are essentially beams cantilevered out of a rigid box. As long as they are designed roughly that way size and lengthwise you can view that drawing as I visualize it... there is no dirt needed to support those posts. They could be bolted to a parking lot, hit with wind and not topple. Forget partial soil fixity, or look at is as the fluffernutter.
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don62
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# Posted: 13 Jul 2016 20:30
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Don P, I'm doing the same type of build but its just a screened room so not a lot of weight but I want it 4 feet off the ground. I'm in northern Minnesota, how deep do I need to go? it will be 10x10.
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sparky30_06
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# Posted: 14 Jul 2016 06:38
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Make sure you cross brace your vertical legs even if they are 2' above ground. With the poor quality of lumber these days especially pressure treated they will twist and turn if not braced well.
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moneypitfeeder
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# Posted: 27 Jul 2016 19:55
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Quoting: pi653 i'm in college and im working 2 jobs just to pay for that, and even if i did have enough to pay for the full project i would not have the time
Just thought I'd ask if you had looked into any alternatives that didn't necessarily rely on lumber from a local supply house. Not sure where you are from but a cob (or strawbale) house {cabin} could be a good fit. I do see you are low on time, and I'm betting cob would take longer than traditional framing, but I thought I'd throw the idea into the mix. I'd love to at our site, but we have zero clay local, for cob, and I don't think the parging would hold in our local for straw.
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