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MtnDon
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# Posted: 14 Feb 2017 19:35 - Edited by: MtnDon
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A neighbor of a friend had bought 12 - 285 watt Solarworld PV panels a few months back. He then had an unfortunate accident and shelved the project; put the house up for sale. I heard about the proposed yard sale of a bunch of tools, plus the PV panels, ahead of time. For $2000 I now own all 12 panels.  Now I need to figure out how I will use them. ... micro inverters or a string inverter, is the main decision point. I have east, south and west exposures. 
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Salty Craig
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# Posted: 14 Feb 2017 20:15
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Cool!! Stick a few in the UPS truck. I'll help you out.
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Just
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# Posted: 14 Feb 2017 21:16
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how many volts are they Don ? thats a good deal
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 14 Feb 2017 22:43
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That's about 58 cents a watt, unthinkable just a few years ago. However, a quick review of panels for sale on Arizona Wind and Sun shows a fair number of panels in the 60 cent range, including Kyocera. You saved taxes and shipping, but am I missing something? The Solarworld 285 watt monocrystaline sell for just over $1/watt. Are these panels superior to Kyoceras selling at 60 cents?
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 14 Feb 2017 22:44 - Edited by: MtnDon
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Just...
Maximum power Pmax 285 Wp
Open circuit voltage Voc 39.7 V
Maximum power voltage Vmp 31.3 V
Short circuit current Isc 9.84 A
Maximum power current Imp 9.20 A
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 14 Feb 2017 23:00 - Edited by: MtnDon
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Quoting: bldginsp You saved taxes and shipping,
Here's how I figured it....
Saved shipping; no sales tax on any solar products in NM anyhow.
Shipping from AZ to NM is about $250 on 12 x 270 Kyocera.
So approx $680 saved by buying the "deal" over ordering Kyocera from AZ @ $202 per panel.
One panel is as good as the other, IMO. Kyocera has been a good reliable brand and has honored warranty over the years. But they would have still cost more.
Locally the best price I could find was about 0.98 per watt. Not bad as there would be no shipping, but still not as good as 0.58.
I think the 0.60 or so on Kyocera at NAWS is for20+. I don't need that much. For the last 2 years we have averaged 450 kWh use per month, with refrig A/C. With our great SW sun all I really need is 2800 watts of panels. There were 12 so we are well covered.
I checked with solarworld, and as I am the end user their warranty covers me.
I'm thinking of 3 on the east facing roof, 5 or 6 on the south and 3 or 4 on the west. That would spread production and help on days when part of the day is cloudy... but that does not happen often so it is not a big deal. Still thinking though. That would be using a micro inverter on each panel. .... Or all facing south with a string inverter. No shade at all with any of the exposures.
Grid tie saves the cost of batteries. However, with all facing south it would be easy enough and cheap to add batteries to a single string inverter setup if I wanted to. The grid here has been very reliable though, so off grid is not all that high on the list. The power company here has a plan that will let me collect a payment for the excess production. That could pay the monthly meter connect fee.
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groingo
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# Posted: 15 Feb 2017 19:01
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Sounds like its time build that solar powered rental cabin!
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creeky
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# Posted: 15 Feb 2017 22:57
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Congrats MtnDon.
Note that many string inverters have 2 MPPT controllers in them. Or even 3. So you could have east, west and south all on one inverter.
I wish I knew where it was. But a fellow in Norway found he got best production by overweighting west power. He's a lot further north than you tho. It would be interesting to track.
There were some advantages to microinverters. (Especially if you have some shading issues. Which you don't) The cost can be higher. But recently with prices dropping that's no longer necessarily true. It has also been noted that microinverters "in the field" can offer 8% greater output.
This is somewhat changed with the high quality string inverters having some pretty amazing software.
Warning***comm***
Finally. Canadians take note. Bobolinksolar has 320 and 340s for .60/w. And that's Canadian$.
Oh. And time to get an electric car. Free miles!
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 15 Feb 2017 23:24 - Edited by: MtnDon
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Just starting to look. I had not given much serious thought to this before these panels came along.
I can get enphase s280 microinverters; 12 @ $1625 for new stock, bulk from a localvendor / installer
I can also get an Outback GVF3648 (used 10 months) for $1200, which would let me add some battery bank if I wanted to.
Enphase are more efficient, but.... batteries for backup????
Or an SMA 3800 string inverter @$1400 (new) $1800 with the rapid shutdown equipment (needed by code)
all local, no shipping costs, just gasoline
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 15 Feb 2017 23:50
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Quoting: creeky Oh. And time to get an electric car. Free miles!
The thought has crossed my mind.
But, in the past year we've only put 5500 miles on the Honda Fit. Total gas cost $298.88 Not much of a worry, and the car didn't cost much
And there's no electric pickup. (truck is needed for cabin access & travel trailer use.)
I have a friend who is waiting for the new Tesla; has a deposit / order placed. They have excess PV installed for that exact purpose.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 16 Feb 2017 00:05
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Creeky... or any CDN... are the Canadian prices before adding GST? and does that vary province to province? just curious
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neckless
Member
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# Posted: 17 Feb 2017 00:16 - Edited by: neckless
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price plus gst 13%..alberta has no sales tax just 6% gst....iam thinkin
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creeky
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# Posted: 17 Feb 2017 02:19 - Edited by: creeky
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GST. what's that? ha ha ha 
the enphase are really good. my gf has them. the ones you're looking at are oversized for your panels. But they'll run cooler so. that's a good price too.
they have a battery option. maybe add it later?
I know nothing about the outback. does that come with the mate so you can program it?
like enphase SMA is a rock solid standard. Comes with 2 mppt strings. so you can still use multiple angles. has fancy optimppt or some'at to help with shading issues.
I'd watch the voltage in the string. I understand that you need to get around 350v to get the optimum efficiency. SMA have a free software program for testing that.
You can go there, plug in your panel and inverter and they'll give you the best setup. you can add your location. they'll even tell you how much power you'll make.
nice adventure. keep us posted.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 17 Feb 2017 08:24
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In Canada the taxes are slightly different depending on Province / Territory. Some do PST+GST others use HST only.
PST = Provincial Tax,
GST = Goods & Services Tax (federal),
HST = Harmonized Sales Tax (gst+pst) Tax Rates vary on the PST part... See attached Table (2017 rates)
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Just
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# Posted: 17 Feb 2017 09:06
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for what its worth these 4 were
990.00$ Can.36 volts 260 watts.each.
wired for 72 volts reduced by mppt controller
to 48 volts. purchased at Canadain Solar including hst.in Ont..Can.
2016
.remote water pump 200 gal.per. min.
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Just
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# Posted: 17 Feb 2017 09:18
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pic
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creeky
Member
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# Posted: 19 Feb 2017 19:05
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If you're having trouble deciding between string and micro inverters.
Here is my gfs production the other day. Pic one shows the snow. Pic 2 shows the effect on panel output. Amazing how little shade it takes to pull the output down. Dramatic really.
Also. Pic 3. Today the panels were clear but we had cloud moving through. So 7 kw of daily production from 2.5kw of panels. Look at the power output bounce with the cloud. Yesterday was clear. 10 kw made.
snowshade.jpg
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snowshade02.jpg
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Dailypower.jpg
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creeky
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# Posted: 19 Feb 2017 19:07
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And my "deal" with solar panels.
960 watts is $585 C. Tax in.
Thx guys for joining in. 34 panels sold so far.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 19 Feb 2017 21:34
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Thanks. I'm leaning towards an SMA Sunnyboy 3.8 and all the panels facing south. Not enough snowfall here to worry about those days. I've been watching the neighborhood panels the couple of times it has snowed this winter. The panels clear within a day. Two or three days with snow is no big deal.
Our street of 29 homes has 12 with PV panels... 11 are Vivint PPA (power purchase agreement). The other is a PPA with another seller. We'll be the odd ones out. ;) I really don't like the PPA's.
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creeky
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# Posted: 20 Feb 2017 00:30
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that's great to see so many houses adding to the grid. You're odd number 13?
I don't know what a ppa is. Is it like net metering? or do they get a set price for kwh created? Maybe your going it your way will give the other 16 homes another path too.
The sunnyboy certainly has reliability to add to its appeal. The dual mppt is nice too. You could do 1/2 south east and 1/2 south west to extend your capture window.
Renvu has them at
Quantity Price $/W
1 – 2 $1,328.97 $0.35
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 20 Feb 2017 11:18 - Edited by: MtnDon
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A PPA is a Power Purchase Agreement. The company, in this case Vivint, owns all the equipment. You sign a contract (PPA) and agree to buy all the power the system produces for 20 years. A year ago when the Vivint was working the area hard the rate was quoted at 0.105 per kWh, which is higher than the base rate of 0.0767 per kWh from the POCO, for the first 450 kWh used. . The company owns the equipment so they get the federal tax credit. The home owner does not get the credit, but then the homeowner does not have to spend any money up front.
Buried in the contract is the fact that each year the rate will increase by 2.9% on the anniversary date. The salesman lied and said the rate could increase by up to 2.9%; the contract states will increase.
You agree to buy all the power the panels produce. You are trusting the company to install just enough panels to cover your average annual use. If you replace the A/C system with a more efficient one at some time, you will not see the energy savings. Ditto, if you reduce you kWh use with any new more efficient appliance.
The deal with the poco lets you feed excess power into the grid an withdraw it later. That deal resets after a year. If you don't use all the kWh the system produces, and you paid Vivint for, those kWh disappear. Vivint keeps the cash. If you use more than the PV system produces you pay the poco, of course. That's okay, but the PPA removes any incentive to save electrical energy use in the future.
Oh, the salesman also lied more to some people than others. The guy across the street was told he would save 40% on his power bill. I was told 15%. Another was told 20%. But there is no guarantee. I know the savings will vary depending on use.
Our use pattern of less than 450 kWh most months would have us paying Vivint more than if we just relied on the POCO. The first 450 kWh would cost about $12 more from Vivint, while the second 450 kWh worth would be $7 cheaper from Vivint. Only when the use goes over that second tier would the customer be saving money. It might be better if one was on a smart meter as then the daytime POCO rate is much higher than the nighttime rate. Almost 0.19 per kWh on peak and less than 0.06 off peak.
To add insult to injury it took 11 months for some of these Vivint systems to come online! So most of these neighbors are only now going to see what their contracts provide them. This may be an interesting summer.
You can buy them out but only after 6 years, because they need that time for the tax credit deal they get to work for them. The value to be set by an arbitrater.
If you want to sell the home the new owner must accept the contract or you, the seller has to pay it off. Many real estate agents believe a PPA could be an impediment to a sale.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 20 Feb 2017 12:04
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I have not talked with all the people on the street (with the new pv). However, from a few that I have talked with I know they did not read the 24 page contract. Yes, it is daunting. I signed a contract, received it via email, and read it the next day. I did that knowing I was covered by the NM consumer law that guarantees a three day cancellation period for contracts signed in the home. That was easier than reading the contract on the salesman's tablet computer while he sat there twiddling his thumbs. None of the three seem to be aware that they have agreed to purchase all the PV production, as opposed to paying for what is used. I sat down with the salesman and specifically asked what would happen if I closed up the house, turned everything off and left for the months of June and July.
The important facts that were revealed was that:
1. The PV system would be producing and we would have to pay Vivint for the power produced. Note: part of the agreement is that Vivint gets their money by direct bank account withdraw when they produce the monthly production figures.
2. The internet connection would have to be left in service and paid for by us. That is stated in the contract. That is needed for Vivint obtaining production figures.
3. Power that was bought, but not used, would be available for later use for a year. It would forfeited if not used. He suggested putting up Christmas lights or using an electric space heater. Yeah, great plan. But that is just my opinion. I do seem to be at odds with a good portion of the neighbors.
We are only doing this as we sold some stuff and may as well put some of the cash on the roof and be "green". I don't think I'll actually ever see the money repaid to us with the elimination of the electric usage part of the monthly bill. We average $57 a month, $7 of which is currently the meter fee. The meter fee may go to $13 if the POCO request is granted. Smart meter homes in the area pay a $20 meter fee.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 20 Feb 2017 14:37
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SMA also has a "grid down" feature that will power a special outlet with up to 2000 watts, as long as the sun is shining brightly enough.
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creeky
Member
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# Posted: 20 Feb 2017 22:35
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Wow. That PV ppa kinda ... how do you say this politely. Its awful.
Sunnyboy:
Looks like configuring the "optitrack" (or whatever its called) is a bit of a pain. Lots of figurin' there for sure. But hey. it'll be your new toy. So you'll want a reason to play with it. 
the new fronius is actually a bit cheaper. but it doesn't have the "grid down" power line. its cool the way it just clicks onto the track tho.
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creeky
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# Posted: 20 Feb 2017 22:41
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Oh. And check your quick disconnect rules. Looks like the auto disconnect is 400 bucks for either string inverter.
The enphase are auto disconnect built in. the price tho. sure adds up when you need 12.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 20 Feb 2017 23:01 - Edited by: MtnDon
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I've already included the rapid shutdown device, as it is required here.
The PV panel racking adds up too. On the plus side there are two mfg's a few miles away in ABQ, so that is a local pickup; no shipping.
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creeky
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# Posted: 21 Feb 2017 17:39
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Too bad yer not closer. i got a huge deal on panel racking. Your cost for the 12 panels would have been <600 bucks. For everything. It's amazing how quickly things like grounding fittings add up.
What racking are you thinking about? there's some cool german stuff where the panels just click right into the racks.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 21 Feb 2017 18:45 - Edited by: MtnDon
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Unirac and DPW Solar are both NM firms that have been in the mounting system business since the 90's. They are competitive. I used a Unirac pole top mount at our cabin. I have an "in" through a friend. I can get a complete DPW rack set, down to the WEEB grounding lug kits, for US$601 with lighter duty P4 rails or US$751 with HD P6 rails. They believe the P4 will be fine as we are in alow snow area. But twice in the past 32 years we have had heavy snow; lots of water content. So, I'd feel better with the P6 as I'm also thinking of 6" tall feet for better air circulation between panels and roof.
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creeky
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# Posted: 22 Feb 2017 11:54
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It would be interesting to try a "cool roof" approach. Close off the sides to force the hot air to vent up under the panels.
Note" I should put a patent on this. but I offer it to your for free!
Also. Check the reviews on the SMA. Apparently they're throwing a lot of afci code faults.
maybe a fronius is the better idea.
older sma units (without afci) are on sale right now.
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creeky
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# Posted: 22 Feb 2017 11:57
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Oh. and my solar racking is the weebs et al and xr1000. top of the line. plus tilting legs. you would have saved hundreds.
i'm really kidding. your install is a great value.
have you thought of going battery/inverter with an all in one? sure does add to the price.
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