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justins7
Member
# Posted: 7 Mar 2017 10:42
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I have a small cabin in the woods of Upstate NY.
I am looking for additional, inexpensive storage and/or workshop space. So I am now thinking about shipping containers.

Alternatively, I've thought about a prefab steel building, like a quonset hut-type. But this is much more expensive (and you need a permit).

Does anyone have experience with containers? Ideas? Opinions?
Insulation? Security? Recommendations?

Thank You!

bldginsp
Member
# Posted: 7 Mar 2017 10:50
Reply 


We've seen a lot of discussion on uses of containers on this forum. I've researched it a bit myself, but not bought one. Here are things to consider-

-very bad idea as a living space unless you spend a lot of money on insulation and ventilation.

-Excellent for what they are intended for- secure storage. The only way to get into one is with a torch, or lock picking.

-the floors have a lot of nasty chemical preservative in them. I'd only want to be in there for storage purposes.

-They will eventually rust through, unless you paint it every 10 years or put a roof over it. Don't get a cheap one where the rust is bad.

-Wish I had put one on my property early on for storage.

-Glad I never got one because they are ugly.

Hope this helps

paulz
Member
# Posted: 7 Mar 2017 10:59
Reply 


I have one next to my cabin that I use for tools and storage and I'm laying a deck out on top of it. It was free. Not bad in the summer but but cold and wet now. I sure wouldn't want to live in it.
0221171043.jpg
0221171043.jpg


justins7
Member
# Posted: 7 Mar 2017 11:49
Reply 


Wow, great responses. Thank you!

I love the one in the photo with the deck on top — great idea.

This would be strictly for storage, or possibly a semi-workshop deal.
As far as the chemicals in the floor: Do you know if that is harmful even if you just use it as storage (i.e. does it get into your stored things)? I've read about people sealing it with thick paint, so maybe that would help.

I'm also trying to figure out if I can cheaply insulate them, for the sake of keeping the stored items from baking in the summer heat. I read online about someone who glued foam insulation panels to the walls, but I'm not sure if he had condensation issues or not.

Maybe a wooden cabin-shed--barn-storage shack would be better, but they come with problems of their own (they're not that cheap, and I'm finding it hard to get them built and delivered without waiting 4-8 weeks in the warm weather, which is when I need it... I'm referring to Amish-style construction.)

I actually don't find the smaller (20') "new" ones that ugly. With paint they have a nice industrial/utilitarian look that I like.

Thanks again!

Tonerboy
Member
# Posted: 7 Mar 2017 11:58
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Not sure if you have a source for the container close to you but shipping a unit to your site may need to be figured into your cost.
I use to work for a company that used 40' containers for on-site storage and, in south Texas, we had issues with the heat.

Greenland South
Member
# Posted: 7 Mar 2017 12:07
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Great idea for storage, but a couple things to think about. In my experience.
1) Don't buy used unless it's in great condition.
2) Where you going to put it, you don't want to have to move it.
3) Install it level and keep it that way. They are stiff but eventually the doors won't seal if allowed to go out of level.
4) Don't get a 40' container unless it has doors at both ends. Stuff at the back may never see the light of day once put in there.
5) Paint it to match your surroundings.
6) Buy a tamper proof lock cover and weld it on. If it's bolted on, a motivated thief will get in.

bldginsp
Member
# Posted: 7 Mar 2017 13:51 - Edited by: bldginsp
Reply 


Don't know about the preservative used. Might vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. Many made in China, if that tells you anything.

Insulation would not keep it cool inside, it would just delay how fast it got hot. Having it shaded under a roof would probably be best, and put vents along the bottom and the top so hot air can get out and cool air in. Perhaps reflective paint would work.

Steve_S
Member
# Posted: 7 Mar 2017 15:39
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I have one which I use to store tools & equipment in and it serves the purpose very well.

Caveats:
Summer they get hot as hades !

Humidity is always an issue because the default venting is too small. 2, 2" vents really do nothing BUT a small 12vDC Computer fan attached to a little solar panel will move air out one of the vents nicely & it helps.

Wintertime..., OK a Steel Can in the cold... what could go wrong ? LOT'S ! Simply put, it can go above freezing inside but still be below freezing outside, the result is humidity issues & damp on the cold surfaces... Wanna see rusty tools, 2 months and you'll have a wide assortment. So do not store your snow covered snow blower etc in there over winter, it will melt off and then you get rust. BTW: The 12V fan helps with this too !

Level: ! The Big Gotcha... They are rigid but do flex & twist to some extent. A wee bit of twist (ie not perfectly level) and the doors become difficult to open, close up & lock. Whatever surface you put it on must be well packed and as level as possible. Putting it directly on the ground may seem a good idea but it isn't, not if it is going to stay there for time. Putting 4 "Cottage Blocks [16"x16"x6"] at the 4 corners leaves a little air space underneath and you can shim on the blocks if needed. I used 4 of these cottage blocks + 6x6x8' PT wood on that then the sea can... Lot's of air space and allowed me to attach a "step" in front, making it easier to get in & out.

Almost all Sea Cans are manufactured in China to strict ISO Standards with Corten Steel. These standards also include specifics on the types of wood treatment for chemicals & pesticides (floors). The Treated Plywood can be removed and replaced, they are screwed down using TorX type bolts... at least 1/2 will break. ** Corten Steel is NOT like HSLA or other metals, cutting is similar (little more effort needed) but welding is NOT ! You are not going to weld Corten with a light MIG or Oxy Torches and get a good weld... Heavy Mig with Gas is the proper way to weld them and it is NOT forgiving like other metals.

Typical Sea Can lifespan in service is not more than 10 years at which time they get cycled out. Usually these are what you will get from Sea Can Vendors and vary a lot in quality... some are beaten and other's not. Remember they live in the harshest of environments and handled roughly in all ports. One Trip Sea Cans are available but are typically double the cost over a used one BUT it has made at least one voyage and may have some dents, dings etc...

LOCKS, If someone is determined to break in, they will... applies to any building or structure... Busting into a Sea Can is NO FUN either and will take time.... I use 4 Class-1 Brinks Locks (2 per door) with rubber hoods to keep water/ice out. I had to cut one of those... 15 Minutes with an angle grinder just to cut the latch! BUT a Good Lock Cover IS worth it's weight in gold when you understand that getting anything out of the Sea Can must have 2 locks cut & door open... which will take the potential thief at least an hour (unless they happen to be carrying a Plasma Cutter)
http://containerlockbox.com/ <-- GREAT Lock Covers ! good $ too.

Insulation: This is a Steel Box so you must consider the "Thermal Break" which is where many people goof... Insulating a single side = waste of time, money & pure idiocy !
That is another discussion and one which some would likely take issue with. Any insulation that can hold moisture or wick moisture should never ever be used in a Sea Can ! so no fiberglass batts (they wick moisture).

NB: For any sort of "habitable use" the floor wood should be replaced as the insecticides & preservatives infused into the wood is not good for you. At that time Rigid or Spray Foam should be installed underneath... Insulation of course will need to be applied... VENTING for habitation, you pretty much NEED a dehumidifying heat recovery ventilator. Simple ERV / HRV solutions can work, humidity & condensation against the cold metal is your enemy (see thermal break & insulation) BUT it is only marginally more complicated than a highly insulated & air tight home / cabin. Vapour Barriers also keep moisture in homes and cause the same problems with potentially worse consequences due to the nature of a regular house construction.

SPECIAL NOTE: You can add a window or door by cutting the holes and framing the opening (with metal or wood) only as long as they are reasonably small. Bigger openings (patio door for example) will require welded framing. Many people opt to build a sub-structure just inside the steel doors and put regular door & window there so once they leave they can then lock up the big doors which is more security & less fuss too (in building). The strength of the "box" is as a whole unit, chop too much out and it can / will collapse. These have no strength on the side & top panels and will not resist much if pressure is applied to the sides or top. Hence why you cannot bury a Sea Container and use it as a shelter as it will collapse inwards. Far too many stories of "geniuses" who learned those lessons the hard way.

Painting: Due to the coating and process some prep is required, a thorough cleaning and washing with salt removal (lot of it on them from the sea) and yes, that means scrubbing too, then a decent sanding with 180 grit... The Iron Oxide Primer on the steel is tough stuff and you want to leave it there, you are just providing a "bite surface" for the new paint. If your dubious about the prep, you can use a good Etching Epoxy Primer which will bond to the undercoat, then you can topcoat with whatever you want. Spraying an good Single Stage Acrylic Enamel can give you really good results without big bucks.

ISO Standards: https://www.iso.org/ics/55.180.10/x/

I know... Info Overload. Ask a question and that's what happens LOL.

Many made in China, if that tells you anything.

IF YOUR ANTI-CHINA then toss all your Chinese Stuff, we'll wait for your messages to be posted by telegraph.

justins7
Member
# Posted: 7 Mar 2017 15:51
Reply 


Wow, Steve, that's an amazing piece of work! So much useful info.

I think at this point I am most concerned about moisture, since i had hoped to store some things long-term in the container (as in years). Although they are not valuable, there would be family belongings, etc., that I care about so I wouldn't want them to get wet and moldy. (I don't have a lot of storage space in my main home, so I was hoping to take advantage of my cabin land for this by using a shipping container.)

That being said, do you think if I install a few more large vents and possibly a solar-powered fan, that would do the trick? (In addition to painting it a light color, and a possible roof solution too.) Or is moisture continually a problem anyway?

Thanks!

Steve_S
Member
# Posted: 7 Mar 2017 16:31
Reply 


Colours reflect differently, see chart below which tells you how much a colour will reflect.

Colour SRI Chart

Moisture is worse when it's cold outside obviously as it all condenses on the sides & top inside... serious UGHNESS ! First Year I got a good batch of rust after winter was done... there are 4 std vents (at ea corner) so you can run 2 computer type fans both expelling air and leave the other two as intakes, you can use a little 3" duct to bring the intake vents to floor level. I would just use a small solar panel to drive the 12V DC fans with a inline fuse, cheap & no ongoing $.

Roofs.... There are many possibilities and options... I have solar panels hanging off the side and over the top a bit... Hindsight BAD PLAN so I am doing something else now to solve that.... You certainly want something on there to shed water & snow (I just took 5' of icy snow off my sea can roof... UGH !).

For Storage I would leave the treated floor ! Bugs, Rodents etc will NOT go near that treated wood and it won't rot either. Definitely get the can off the ground and try to leave air space under it to prevent condensation and worse underneath.

If you are storing anything that could be damaged by humidity, air tight 5 gal buckets with lids, Plastic Totes with the stuff inside in closed bags, just mostly common sense considerations. BTW: a handful of rice in a cloth bag tossed into the "storage bags" will pull moisture in... Rice is a form of desiccant, like those little packets. (Not Instant Rice, regular rice only) I do believe you can buy desiccant packets in bulk but you'd have to find them, likely on ebay etc)

justins7
Member
# Posted: 7 Mar 2017 16:37
Reply 


This is excellent, thanks!

How do you run the power from the solar panel into the fan on the inside? Just a sealed hole somewhere?

Do you have any pics of this seabox you can post?

Steve_S
Member
# Posted: 7 Mar 2017 17:28
Reply 


It's just a standard 20' sea can / sea container / shipping container which cost me 1800 delivered in 2014. (delivery was free because I'm close to the vendor, an international moving company next to a large military base) ** hint**

As for wiring, 1/2" hole and rubber grommet with Quad Silicone.

I'm just about to get ready to empty it out and furtle around with moving it and setting a roof structure on it this spring which will extend down one side as a lean-to. Right now it's sitting with some framing on the side and loaded with bits... lot's a bits.... ughness...

Steve961
Member
# Posted: 7 Mar 2017 20:01
Reply 


On my wish list is to build a carport attached to a shipping container. This will provide shade for the container in the summer, additional water collection and storage underneath, and a covered work area or carport depending on need. The pic below shows my plan.
ContainerCarport.png
ContainerCarport.png


toyota_mdt_tech
Member
# Posted: 7 Mar 2017 21:22
Reply 


I bought a 20 footer and will have it at my cabin in April. I am welding vents with baffles on it and screens to keep bugs out. I am also welding brackets along the top to bolt on a 4X4 to act like a wall top plate, but I will attach a pitched wooden roof. That should help keep it cooler also. I will extend the roof out pat the door end to gave me a porch affect. I will also paint it, white would be ideal, its white now, but I need it to match my theme, ie Forest Service Brown. Will use a green metal roofing over the sheeting. I will try to keep inside and outside temps close, my area air is very dry, lot a lot of humidity, so that should help too. I will watch it over a year and monitor before I put anything in it.

Cowracer
Member
# Posted: 8 Mar 2017 10:31
Reply 


A guy not too far from me used to to make a garage. He placed them about 24 feet apart in parallel, then put a simple 4:12 pitch roof across them. He walled in the back between then, and hung a large garage door between them in the front.

He used one container for his tools, and the other for steel storage. After about 5 years of looking like a couple containers with a roof, he wrapped the whole thing with t1-11 siding. Other than the latches for the container doors, you would be hard pressed to realize what it really was.

Tim

Asher
Member
# Posted: 8 Mar 2017 11:16
Reply 


I use to haul containers in my last trucking job, there are a couple differences in containers.. I didn't figure out any rhyme or reason with them, I just figure it was how they where spec'd at the time of build. Some already had vents in the top corners, some didn't, some where standard height some where called high cube which added a couple inches... the floors are usually treated with some kind of chemical that might be very close to kerosene oil (most seemed to look and smell that way)... I know a lot of people suggest the treatments are toxic and maybe they are correct (I can't say either way), but I can say I hauled a tons of food product (flour, rice, corn, etc.) in those containers, so if they are full of toxins then we are eating them.. Everything shipped in containers where always floor loaded (no pallets) because pallets take up space and add weight=cost...

We are planning on getting 20' container for our local storage. and another one in a couple years for storage down at the cabin as permanent storage.. I am really considering taking the one at the cabin and flipping it upside down removing the wood floor (or roof) and adding a pitched roof this would allow for better venting, added height, and more storage space.. and if you have any reservations about the chemicals, removing the wood would resolve a lot of that also... If I wanted to insulate I would consider a different approach... I think I would add insulation to the outside and then side the unit with something fitting with the rest of the buildings around it.

We are getting 20' for the main reason that they can be transported on a heavy duty car hauler trailer or you can contract a roll off tow truck to move. A 40 footer is a little more involved an would either take a large goose neck or semi flat bed.

The last thing about containers/security, they are about as tough as you can get, but the weak point isn't the lock itself, it's the flop over brackets that are the weak point. A quick angle grinder to those is the key... So try to come up with a creative way to cover that area when locked..

bldginsp
Member
# Posted: 8 Mar 2017 18:00 - Edited by: bldginsp
Reply 


The hot poop on container insecticides/fungicides:

http://www.treehugger.com/modular-design/shipping-container-housing-are-the-floors-to xic.html

Read further down where they talk about high levels of insecticide found in flour that was transported on the floor.

Yuck.

justins7
Member
# Posted: 8 Mar 2017 18:34
Reply 


Thank you everyone for the thorough and interesting responses!

I am starting to get a bit concerned about the moisture issue. Where my cabin is it goes from summer heat to near zero in the winter.

Will installing more louvered vents really help? (And solar-powered fan, as discussed.)

Maybe I should go back to the wooden Amish shack idea...

bldginsp
Member
# Posted: 8 Mar 2017 22:38
Reply 


I think if you install a lot of vents both top and bottom it will alleviate most of the problem. I've seen containers with those ball shaped louvred wind turbines on top. Then you just need a way for air to get in below, so you get regular movement of air.

bldginsp
Member
# Posted: 8 Mar 2017 22:47 - Edited by: bldginsp
Reply 


Quoting: justins7
How do you run the power from the solar panel into the fan on the inside?

If you have any electrical in or near a metal container, drive a ground rod and somehow secure a ground wire to the container steel and rod. If the electrical you use is a grounded system, make sure the container is also bonded to the grounding system back to the source (generator, utility, inverter).

All that metal gives me the willies...

On the long term I bet you will be happier with a wood structure, or metal Quonset, but containers are fast and cheap and the problems are surmountable

Gary O
Member
# Posted: 9 Mar 2017 07:20
Reply 


I started typing
Then
Heh
Started reading…

Steve_S
Spot on
And witty as ever (long reads…worth it)

Great input, everbod

We have a 20 footer
Great
For storage

Yes, ugly
Really really ugly

Dollar for dollar?
Build what you want, how you want

and, if after reading all this and you still get one;
put it where yer gonna want it, first time

toyota_mdt_tech
Member
# Posted: 12 Mar 2017 17:00
Reply 


Quoting: justins7
Will installing more louvered vents really help? (And solar-powered fan, as discussed.)

Maybe I should go back to the wooden Amish shack idea...


Yes, that is actually the key. A pair of whirly birds in the roof plus some inlets on the sides near the bottom. As long as air is moving, you wont get the sweat. A big temp diff from inside to outside, stale air and humidity will spell trouble with a sealed container. I am just doing 3 inlets vents near bottom on one side and 3 outlet vents near top on other side. I will monitor it to see how it does before I store too much in it.

KinAlberta
Member
# Posted: 14 Apr 2017 22:43 - Edited by: KinAlberta
Reply 


I suggested to a friend that one could buy two, lay them beside each other with a 8'+ or 16'+ separation between them, and maybe add a garage door and back wall and then put a gable roof over the it all. Thus: two secure units and a car port or other storage space.


Anyone try to hide the ugliness with lattice and a vine?

toyota_mdt_tech
Member
# Posted: 14 Apr 2017 23:04 - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
Reply 


OK, I just bought a 20 footer right before Christmas last year. I had it hauled to my cousins. He has a Snap On MM250L mig welder of mine. So I spent the last 2 weekends at his place, first thing was to weld up all holes in the side. Items bolted to it, ie shelves etc. All sealed up. Then I added 3 vents near the top of one side and 3 more same sized vents on the bottom of the wall on the opposite side. I made a baffle and a hood, so breathes well, but dust cant blow in or rain water sheds off, nice bug screen on the inside. I also added 3/4" steel lock pins to secure the LH door, pinned at the bottom and the top. Each door has 2 cam locks and each are locked with a padlock. Other door also have 2 cam locks too, and it also have a lock box where the left door locks to the right door. This lock is secure inside the box.

As for the cam locks, I purchased a set of 4 American puck locks, model 2010, these are solid steel, and all keys alike. The bolt is hidden. There is 4, 2 on each door. Then the lock box, I have a American padlock, a massive unit, model A700D, I keyed them all alike and converted the A700D padlock to a 6 pin vs a 5 pin. The hasp on that A700D is 7/16" thick.

I also added brackets to the roof edges to secure a top plate. I plan on adding a full pitched roof, enclosed at all ends. It will hang over the door end to create a porch look, this will also allow me to open the doors when there is snow on the ground.

I am hauling it up this month, its foundation will be just a thick pad of crushed gravel. It will be packed and leveled.

The floor is nice wood. I suspect its treated. No odors. I wouldn't eat off of it though.

The paint is a marine epoxy paint, to weld, I have a 4" Makita grinder to grind the paint off and it would just melt and smear. It was originally green, then painted white. No way will this rust, especially in my dry climate. The roof will keep it cooler inside. The inside will be painted bright platinum white and the outside will be painted forest service brown, will have the green metal roof on it. I suspect the roof will be done in another trip, probably in August.

This will be a very secure storage shed. I can leave items in it vs leaving it in the cabin. No more clearing out cabin to use it. I will post pictures of it as it progresses along in "My Project" thread/section.

justins7
Member
# Posted: 15 Apr 2017 10:21
Reply 


Wow, Toyota, that is pretty thorough! I wish I had your skills, but I am going to try to do the same, somehow. Please post pics when you can. Why crushed stone versus concrete blocks?

BryanBrooks: One of the very reasons for me buying my cabin and land is to avoid storage here in NYC. I have had stuff in storage for a while, and it's just a waste of money over the long-term. I'd rather be able to see and use my things (but I don't want them stolen).

Infamous Dave
Member
# Posted: 15 Apr 2017 16:09
Reply 


I can't see why a shipping container wouldn't work great for storage if you can get one for a reasonable price and can get it to your property.

When I was a kid we lived on a farm and my dad was a truck driver. He brought home an old semi trailer and we used that for storage for many years until they moved off the farm with no issues.

rockies
Member
# Posted: 15 Apr 2017 18:47 - Edited by: rockies
Reply 


I have contacted a few different shipping suppliers looking for a storage container and one thing I would recommend is getting a used refrigerated shipping container. These are already insulated with spray foam and have a wooden interior already built in place. They don't cost much more than a basic container but all the interior work is done.

If you want you can add an additional layer of plywood to the interior and seal it if you're worried about contaminants. Order one with the container's cooling motor removed. Some companies will even cut in extra doors and windows for you.

toyota_mdt_tech
Member
# Posted: 16 Apr 2017 19:24
Reply 


Quoting: justins7
Why crushed stone versus concrete blocks?


Its going to be easier to slide it off a deck over trailer on a leveled packed bed of gravel. The blocks would make it time consuming. And could frost heave. I will have it thick enough for drainage, no varmint nesting under it and will be stable in the winter freeze.

justins7
Member
# Posted: 17 Apr 2017 10:09
Reply 


Toyota, I am trying to decide between crushed stone versus concrete blocks.

I am planning on buying one or two 20' containers. First I am going to have a landscaper come and clear some trees and level the ground to accommodate a delivery truck and make space for the containers. Then I will find/buy the containers. So I can either have the landscaper put in the crushed stone, and then the containers can be dropped onto it, OR I was thinking of having the containers dropped onto level dirt, then the landscaper would return to lift the containers and level them onto concrete blocks.
Which scenario do you recommend?

I am concerned about drainage and moisture (and the area gets hot in summer and freezing in winter. So I thought elevating them on blocks would be best, but now I don't know.

toyota_mdt_tech
Member
# Posted: 17 Apr 2017 21:21
Reply 


My gravel bed will be thick, about 6" or more. That will keep water away from the underside. You could add a breathable barrier under it also, ie the black landscape fabric? Either way will work. One is easier and quicker.

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