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ICC
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# Posted: 6 Dec 2018 23:55 - Edited by: ICC
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I'm not saying or believing that the temperature of this planet has never been hotter or colder before people were here. It has. It has been colder. It has been hotter. All before people.
But the Butterfly Effect, Chaos theory, has more truth to it than not. Things we people do, do have an effect on our surroundings. The more people the greater the cumulative effects.
We will never stave off climate changes as have happened over the millennia before there were people, but I do believe that our activities can exacerbate or ameliorate the rate and/or degree of change.
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darz5150
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2018 00:58 - Edited by: darz5150
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Quoting: ICC but it is a mindset.
So is paranoid schizoprehnia, and being a serial killer. But that doesn't mean that applies to anyone here.
I will not be able to be carbon neutral, perfect in every way, or be right in everything I do. Nor will you..I do what I can, and that's all I can do.
Its time for the pot to stop calling the kettle black. When you stop driving a car, buying groceries that are trucked in, turn the heat off in your house etc. let me know! @ kel v. How long does it take you to walk to your cabin with your store bought supplies while being carbon neutral?
Today I paid my electric bill. I have a modest solar set up, & grid power. I used $1.11 per day worth of grid tied power. My levelized propane bill is $16.47 per month.
Right now, I have lights on, TVs, security cams, ceiling fans and heating. I just looked at the spinning disc on my " smart meter" on the power pole. Its barely spinning. Part power from solar, part grid. Does that make me better than any one else?....... Not at all. Its just how I live. It is what it is. For over a decade. I bust my ass to be as environmentally friendly as possible. I live at my cabin full time 24/7/365.
Now here's the ironic part. I have 3 pipelines 150 yards away from my cabin. Pumping millions of gallons of fossil fuels per day. Marathon,Keystone, and Trans Canada pipelines. Not providing fuel for just me......... Its for you too.😨
So I do what I can. Do what you can do. Because we ALL are the pot and the kettle!😩
We all live and learn. Think about it this way. Even a dog doesn't sh!t in his food bowl.
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darz5150
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2018 01:15
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Forgot to mention I have to pay the property taxes on my land that the pipelines slice thru!
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Cowracer
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2018 09:25 - Edited by: Cowracer
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Quoting: rockies Just think, your grandchildren may live long enough to see the last of the oil being pumped out of the ground and sold off to the highest bidder (which won't be them)......and then what? Back to the 1880's?
Well, the world has been "running out of oil" since Ed Drake sank the first well. If you look at the known reserves, you'll see we are ok for the forseeable future. The suspected unknown reserves are many times larger. I'm not worried about running out of oil. The only thing we are 'running out of' is easy to get to oil. Most of the low-hanging-fruit has been taken. But with new technology like fracking and deep offshore drilling, we are now able to get oil once thought impossible.
But lets play with your scenario for a minute. Let's say that all the scientists and engineers agree that the last drop of oil will be pumped out in 10 years. Then what? Little House on the Prairie times again?
First off, you have to look at why oil became the dominant player in the world. IT'S CHEAP! Compared to most other bulk fuels, oil is pretty affordable. It's convenient. Our whole fuel infrastructure is designed around fuels that are liquid at room temp and normal atmospheric pressures. It's far easier and cheaper to pump a liquid than move a solid. It's versatile. You can get just about any type of fuel, from gasses to rocks that burn out of fossil fuels. And you can make things out of it. Why... The plastic in the keyboard I am typing this on was probably the ass of a triceratops at one point millions of years ago...
To move away from bulk liquid fuels would require a MASSIVE undertaking. You have to convince people to buy cars that ran on the alternative fuel, and to do that, you have to convince them that they will be able to get whatever that fuel is at 2am in Pig Snout, Arkansas. To do THAT, you need to convince the fuel companies to build an entire new distribution network, and to do that, you have to show them where enough people will be buying cars that will use that fuel. It's a circular argument, and it will take a big paradigm shift to break it. Why would anyone spend big money to move away from petroleum when right now you can get a vehicle that goes 40 or so miles on $3 worth of the stuff, that only takes 5 minutes and doesn't require a masters degree to refuel?
And the only impetus that is going to be strong enough to break that cycle is oil getting so scarce that it becomes economically viable to invest in redoing the infrastructure. Now... You do see electric cars making inroads (pun intended) today, but very few electric car owners actively consider talking long extended trips (requiring recharging) with those cars. They are mainly commuters. Right now, we have cars that run very well on hydrogen. But without the infrastructure for refueling then anywhere, they are merely a curiosity.
When oil get scarce (read:expensive) enough, making the transition to another fuel will become more viable. I fully expect to see in my lifetime that we start transitioning to the Hydrogen economy and leaving the Petroleum one behind. You wanna make a bajillion dollars? Come up with a way to make hydrogen a room-temp liquid, so that our existing infrastructure could transport and dispense it. But it would require oil becoming very costly to make all that investment worth it. But Oh... It would be SOOOOO worth it.
The best thing that could ever happen to us is the last drop of oil being sucked out of the ground. That wouldn't force us to go back to live in the past. That would allow us to move forward into the future.
tim
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2018 09:31 - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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This should give us more time. 
US Geological Survey Discovers Largest Continuous Oil and Gas Resources EVER in Texas-New Mexico Delaware Basin
Hey, I know we have difference of opinions here.
I also know everyone in here are good stewards of the land and environment, just goes with cabineers.
I also know we use only what we need as far as energy goes, foolish to think otherwise, the cost alone is a conserving factor.
Anyway, everyone knows where i stand here, I am going to leave it at that.
We had spirited debate, and it never denigrated to name calling, was pretty civil overall.
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Borrego
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2018 10:33
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Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech We had spirited debate, and it never denigrated to name calling
Well, I (and I think you by association) were informed we were 'ignorant'.
Funny, I don't feel ignorant.....
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KelVarnsen
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2018 11:48
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Quoting: Borrego Well, I (and I think you by association) were informed we were 'ignorant'.
That is not name calling. Ignorant is defined as: "not having enough knowledge, understanding, or information about something". It should not be taken personally. I'm ignorant in a great many subjects.
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KelVarnsen
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2018 13:07
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I'd like to add to my previous statement. I can totally understand how being called ignorant can be viewed derogatory. Since you've assured me that you are fully educated on climate change I guess that I should have been more direct and called you wrong. Yes, opinions can be wrong. You've chosen to refute, disregard or ignore the science. Just head over to the Flat Earth Society and you can have very similar discussions to what we've had here. "In general, we at the Flat Earth Society do not lend much credibility to photographic evidence. It is too easily manipulated and altered." Substitute science and climate change into their arguments and you'll see the similarities.
The science is in and it is overwhelming. I hate to use Al Gore's name because some of you find it inflammatory, but he was correct in calling climate change "An Inconvenient Truth". It is very inconvenient, but it is undeniablely a truth. I'm sure that many of you homesteaders understand how a greenhouse works. Sometimes you need to vent the greenhouse to prevent overheating. The earth's atmosphere is a closed system. We don't have the option of venting our excess heat. Yes our atmosphere is large, but it is not infinite.
The true mark of an enlightenment is the ability to change one's views in the face of evidence contrary to our preconceived notions and past experience/knowledge. It is a very difficult thing to do. At first I was angered by the conversations that we've had here, but I do think that we did an admirable job of remaining civil. I hope that the seeds have been planted for some to reflect and think about some of the information presented with an open mind. My sincere hope is that 40 years from now I can visit this forum and express how wrong that I was in this discussion. I hope that the most dire effects of climate change don't materialize.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2018 13:45
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I actually have always considered the warm mongers the flat earthers.
Theory, guesses, estimates, hypothesis and computer models are not evidence nor is it science.
But I already covered that.
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KelVarnsen
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2018 14:00 - Edited by: KelVarnsen
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Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech I actually have always considered the warm mongers the flat earthers.
Percentage of scientists that believe in climate change: 97
Percentage of scientists that deny climate change: 3
Percentage of scientists that believe the earth is round: 100
Percentage of scientists that believe the earth is flat: 0
I'll let people draw their own conclusions on who is right and who is wrong.
While we are at it a scientific theory is more or less proven. A hypothesis is yet to be proven. A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world.
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ICC
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2018 14:27 - Edited by: ICC
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Quoting: KelVarnsen While we are at it a scientific theory is more or less proven. A hypothesis is yet to be proven. A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world.
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ICC
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2018 14:31
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Every scientific theory starts as a hypothesis. A scientific hypothesis is a suggested solution for an unexplained occurrence that doesn't fit into a currently accepted scientific theory. In other words, according to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, a hypothesis is an idea that hasn't been proven yet. If enough evidence accumulates to support a hypothesis, it moves to the next step — known as a theory — in the scientific method and becomes accepted as a valid explanation of a phenomenon.
from https://www.livescience.com/21491-what-is-a-scientific-theory-definition-of-theory.ht ml
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2018 15:29 - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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Quoting: KelVarnsen Percentage of scientists that believe the earth is round: 100 Percentage of scientists that believe the earth is flat: 0
I'm not questioning the earths shape, its not a theory its round, its fact.
Can those scientist tell me what the ideal temp should be and how they came to that conclusion?
I have never gotten answer to this question, ever. Its been dodged here too.
Another one they never answer is: Its been warmer and colder than it is now, before mankind or the industrial revolution. Why?
Maybe enlightened ones in here can?
People who think scientist falsified the research 69%
CU Researcher Raises Questions Surrounding Conflicts of Interest in Climate Research
Costly too:
Macron Waves The White Flag On Carbon Taxes
GLOBAL TEMPERATURE DROPS BY 3/4 DEGREE F (0.4°C) IN THREE YEARS
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Cowracer
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2018 16:01 - Edited by: Cowracer
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Quoting: KelVarnsen Percentage of scientists that believe in climate change: 97 Percentage of scientists that deny climate change: 3 Percentage of scientists that believe the earth is round: 100 Percentage of scientists that believe the earth is flat: 0
These scientists you speak of, are they all atmospheric and climate scientists, or is there a few quantum physicists and pharmacologic research scientists or other non-related types sprinkled in as well?
I notice that I didn't see a percentage of scientists listed that think Climate Change is real, but think man has little to do with it. Hmmmmm.
As I said before, skillful manipulation of how data is presented can prove just about anything you want.
Tim
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KelVarnsen
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2018 16:40
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I’m exhausted. Do you guys want to talk about something less controversial? Evolution? The age of the earth?
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95XL883
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2018 18:26
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Okay, I've been trying to stay out of this but the 97% thing and the demonstrated willingness of some climate doomsayers to falsify data and methods to ge the desired result so bothers me that I'm back.
First, during the renaissance period the consensus was the earth was the center of the universe and unbelievers could be put to death.
Second, when Columbus sailed to the New World the consensus was the earth was flat and the poor fool was going to fall to his death when he sailed over the edge.
Third, moving to modern times, there has been a litany of claims by environmentalists over the past 50 years that have been proven wrong. I mentioned some of them in a previous post.
Fourth, Howard Mann, the University of Pennsylvania "climatoligist" who created the "hockey stick" graph showing catastrophic global warming was coming wouldn't release his methodology or his data until absolutely forced to do so. Once released an amateur mathematician from Canada quickly discovered that his methodology was so flawed that you could stick in practically any set of numbers in his model and it would produce a hockey stick graph. Disgraced, Mann's response has been to sue anybody who questions him.
As far as the peer reviewing the big group out of England (I forget which university it was) was revealed to be "cooking" the results by deliberately letting papers be reviewed by scientists who already were predisposed to believe in global warming and were willing to basically punish anybody who said otherwise. Their reach even extended into peer reviews done in America.
Bjorn Lomborg (I think I have his name spelled right), a noted MIT scientist and debunker of the man-made global warming myth that only highly recognized and tenured professors like him would be able to question the global warming alarmists. Lomborg has routinely shown gaps and mistakes in globabl warming calculations.
The UN's Intra-Governmental Climate Change Panel, published a doom and gloom report several years ago that was widely disparaged and quickly shown to be false. You might remember that as the one that said glaciers would be gone in just a few years.
When it became obvious that the global warming models were dubious, suddenly the environmentalists switched from global warming to global change.
Just a year or so ago, the UN's Intra-Governmental Climate Change Panel released a new report now showing that global warming would be no where near as bad as they had earlier projected.
And while the environmentalists and large parts of the rest of the world are clamoring for the US to hamstring our economy AND pay for the damage being done by other countries, it became known that US CO2 emissions were much better than the rest of the world. It was also revealed that China's and India's CO2 emissions are much higher than ours. And if you want to see a country that really trashes the environment just look at Russia. Their destruction of the environment is epic. But still the US is the one that is expected to suffer and to pay for other countries' malfeasance.
You may not like it but the elites are out of touch. And when they try to force their beliefs on the pocket books and backs of the masses, well the masses don't take it well. Just look at what is happening in France. The report today is that Macron is practically in hiding.
So yeah Kel, go ahead and make snide remarks about me enjoying Cat 5 hurricanes (never mind that the record shows the number of Cat 5 hurricanes hasn't increased in recent years) and otherwise impugning me. The global warming arguments haven't been shown to be credible. They just get people upset and worried and think that something has to be done. Meanwhile most people, at least in the US, will try to keep their property clean and properly dispose of waste and use resources within the means of their ability to pay for them.
And if you really want to get me going on another topic, try justifying parents not acting as parents. Everytime I see some guy or some gal abandoning their role as a parent I just really want to point out to them what fools they are being for not spending time with their children and their spouse. That said, it's time for me to go be with my wife. (My kids are now grown but I've got to call my brother and there is Christmas gatherings to plan.)
Sorry for being so cranky. I've just spent 1.5 hours listening to the same five measures of music while on hold with a government bureaucracy.
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KelVarnsen
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2018 19:43
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Quoting: Cowracer These scientists you speak of, are they all atmospheric and climate scientists, or is there a few quantum physicists and pharmacologic research scientists or other non-related types sprinkled in as well?
I want to build a rocket, I'd better consult a botanist. Of course, climate scientists are the best experts to speak on man-made climate change. But who can trust them, they've all been seduced by that lucrative grant money.
Scientific consensus: Earth's climate is warming
"Multiple studies published in peer-reviewed scientific journals show that 97 percent or more of actively publishing climate scientists agree: Climate-warming trends over the past century are extremely likely due to human activities. In addition, most of the leading scientific organizations worldwide have issued public statements endorsing this position."
Quoting: 95XL883 Just a year or so ago, the UN's Intra-Governmental Climate Change Panel released a new report now showing that global warming would be no where near as bad as they had earlier projected.
That's interesting, the 2018 IPCC report released in October had a much different story to tell. Climate change impacts worse than expected, global report warns. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change says the world is headed for painful problems sooner than expected, as emissions keep rising.
Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech Can those scientist tell me what the ideal temp should be and how they came to that conclusion?
Toyota while there is no set "ideal" temperature. There are a litany of negative effects that will happen if temperatures continue to rise. But those come from "theories" and "models" that can't be trusted of of course.
Carbon Brief created an excellent interactive page detailing the differences in climate impacts between 1.5°C and 2°C, based on 70 peer-reviewed studies. Generally speaking, the IPCC report finds that “Climate-related risks to health, livelihoods, food security, water supply, human security, and economic growth are projected to increase with global warming of 1.5°C and increase further with 2°C.â€
The IPCC report concludes that a world with 2°C of global warming will lead to more heat-related deaths, smaller crop yields, worse extreme weather events, slower economic growth, more people in poverty, and increase the population facing water stress by up to 50% compared to a 1.5°C world. And the impacts will get progressively worse if temperatures warm beyond the 2°C limit.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2018 20:04
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Quoting: KelVarnsen The IPCC report conclude
Not exhausted?
Not true, cooler weather kills 20X more people than warmer weather, look it up.
I can debunk anything you can find on the net too.
Anyway, my position is firm, I have access to all the same information you have, I will absorb it and come to my own conclusion.
Climate Depot
Ice Age Now
Signed, global cooling survivor
1975 Newsweek Article (funny read)
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2018 22:34
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So it seems the other day someone resurrected an old thread about metal roofs. I had subscribed to that years ago and received an email from the forum software. So I had a little look around since I was here anyhow. I find this new topic running overfull with barely suppressed emotions. I am not surprised in that I see this dichotomy played out nearly everyday as I go about my daily business. I am just surprised to see the topic here at all. I guess the “players†have managed to remain civil enough.
A decade or so ago I was just a little bit of a global climate change skeptic. However I have seen lakes in the western mountain states go from being is bad shape from acid rain to being in much better shape with fish and other water life thriving. I have seen the air in southern California become cleaner since the 80’s, even though there are now more people and more cars than back in the days when the sky was more often brown than blue. We people took it upon ourselves to clean up the streams and lakes, to clean up the air, and we did.
That goes to show we people do have an effect on our environment. That little bit of history shows human activities can cause problems and that we can solve problems when we recognize there is a problem.
I believe it is ridiculous to say to think that what we do has no long term effect, or to think that there is no use of trying to be a better steward because the earth system is going to change one direction or another no matter what we do.
I do believe the world climate is warming and that will cause changes we do not want. This is a very inconvenient truth, IMO. All my life I have been a motorhead. I have had a lifelong love affair with the internal combustion engine. I bought my first motorcycle before I could legally drive. I spent a year taking it apart and rebuilding and refinishing the Triumph that was a year older than I was. So I am greatly conflicted. Releasing gasses that promote the formation of the greenhouse effect is bad. The science, real science, points in that direction.
We in the US have used more than our fair share of natural resources for decades. We as a country are gluttons when it comes to energy use. It is easier for many to keep doing the same old things, believing the same old things because change is going to inconvenience us. I can’t make anyone change. But I, my family, has been trying to do the best things to make our part in the world do more good than harm.
What have we done? We have a new net zero energy home, smaller than the old one, but still larger than the average EU size home and much larger than those in third world countries. Change takes effort and time, but I hope I am part of a rethink on what we, as a country need, rather than just wanting everything. I hope that makes some sense.
We sold the cabin site, sold the in the suburbs home and moved to a smallish town in the same general mountain area. We drive to town a few miles in either a Volt we bought used or a new Tesla Model 3. I have not put gasoline in the Volt since July. I would like to be able to buy a Tesla truck. The cars charge via our solar system; grid tied with backup storage capacity via a salvaged battery pack from a Tesla type S wreck. The house uses heat pump technology for all cooling and pretty much all heating. There is a propane fueled furnace for the coldest periods and to keep the insurance company happy. We haven’t used it yet this year.
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orangetom1999
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# Posted: 8 Dec 2018 10:10
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Nuclear power...LOL LOL LOL LOL
Orangetom
Not an Ishmaelite
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Borrego
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# Posted: 8 Dec 2018 10:39
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Quoting: MtnDon I am just surprised to see the topic here at all
Welcome back, Don....
Yeah, this used to be a good 'cabin people helping cabin people' kinda place. Regardless of politics, which is how it should be.....IMO
Some people like to post potentially inflammatory stuff to promote their views...I find myself checking out the site less and less, it's just getting irritating....was thinking yesterday about canning it entirely.....
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orangetom1999
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# Posted: 8 Dec 2018 10:41 - Edited by: orangetom1999
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This is such a crock....
Climate Change....Wow.
One of the biggest polluters in this world is Communist China...
Yet hardly spoken about in this topic.
Also not spoken about in our phony/fake Media is the riots in France.....supposedly for fuel taxes and costs of living.
What our phony media is not telling us is the much of the fuel tax increase is because of Climate Change Carbon Taxes. This is avoided so that we remain dumb and ignorant and do not catch on ..but are made overly emotional....without real Truth. Easily manipulated ..right to the voting booth.
What is also not told to us about the Carbon Taxes is that increases in the tax are built into the Paris Climate accords.
Donald Trump apparently saw through this and backed out of the Paris Accord Treaty...and this shakedown called a Carbon Tax.
The Climate Change Carbon Tax is a way of holding certain nations Hostage and in economic and social bondage to pay for other nations....and or people profiting off this system/shakedown.
This is the dirty little secret our phony media and or public education systems do not want us to know or even think. Our phony leadership as well.
Do not think for one minute that if the left gets back into office that they will not vote away our sovereignty to Climate Change and this Carbon Tax shakedown scheme.
The proof is that you hear little about the huge amounts of pollution going on in China...and even India....up and coming economic nations.
Be Warned...of the nature of the Shakedown artists here....
Also Be Warned about these Shakedown artists as many of them are in positions of leadership and also in our public school system teaching and preaching this devout and zealous religion of Climate Change and reaching into your wallet...by law.
Make no mistake....Climate Change is reaching the proportions of a devout and zealous religion....a social religion.
The evidence of this is the textbook and predictable name calling and labeling/guilt and shame promoting as is so viral in politics and social change today.
This kind of emotion is evidence of zealousness and zealousness can be an indicator of a devout religious belief system operating in the background.
They many not use that word to describe it...religion..but it certainly is..by it's devoutness and zeal in its promotion.
Be Warned of this devoutness and zeal in promoting anything...emotions....runaway emotions...anything.
Be Warned in the future when Climate Change turns the corner from Environment to population control.....Genocide and Democide...
For the ultimate control goal is the UN Doctrines on Climate Change as epitomized in the Georgia Guidestones.
Read Line 1 of the Georgia Guidestones...it is quite alarming when you understand what they are saying.
Then read and connect the rest of the Georgia Guidestones....to line 1.
1.Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature.
This is the Global Scheme ...the outline of the future...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones
Be Warned of the Climate Change Shakedown....coming soon to you and me.
For future purposes and control it will be necessary to "Herd" people like cattle in how they think, do, and vote.
Climate Change is "Herding People."
My non Ishmaelite .02,
Orangetom
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orangetom1999
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# Posted: 8 Dec 2018 10:54 - Edited by: orangetom1999
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What these people plan to do is vote away our rights and liberties under the Constitution of the United States to an outside agency under the guise of the man made Emergency of Climate Change.
This too is not told to Americans while we are bombarded with distractions like sports and or the Kardashians...or any other pabulum for keeping us from thinking...
Amuse....Amusement..
A - Without
Muse - Thinking.
Without thinking...amuse / amusement..
Something fed to us to prevent thinking.
You do not need to be a scientist to figure this out...simple etymology and it's attendant thinking will suffice.
Being overly emotional is also a way to prevent thinking...
Particularly among a people who have mostly a television and movie education...in said emotions...not in thinking for yourself.
Be Warned of anyone or any group who try to "Herd and or Corral" you by your emotions.
And Climate Change has become an emotional issue....generating fear and insecurity among people...and with more government as the solution. That is your tell tale evidence that you are being manipulated...herded....preyed upon.
Just my non Ishmaelite .02,
Orangetom
Not an Ishmaelite
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orangetom1999
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# Posted: 8 Dec 2018 11:10
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by Toyota-mdt-tech,
Next step, driverless cars, cars with no steering wheel. Soon, only allowed to travel certain times or face huge fees.
This is the kind of thing I mean when I say..."Herding" of people..like cattle.
Orangetom
Not an Ishmaelite
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KelVarnsen
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# Posted: 8 Dec 2018 15:32
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Quoting: MtnDon We have a new net zero energy home, smaller than the old one, but still larger than the average EU size home and much larger than those in third world countries. Change takes effort and time, but I hope I am part of a rethink on what we, as a country need, rather than just wanting everything. I hope that makes some sense.
Good for you MtnDon. I'm hoping for a net zero home and a Tesla soon too.
Quoting: Borrego ....was thinking yesterday about canning it entirely.....
Borrego, it would be unfortunate if you abandoned this site. You have some great insights on projects and I'm sure many here, myself included, have enjoyed your pictures, advice and participation.
I absolutely think this site should be focused on the small cabin ideal and stay out of politics. I figure people are free to ignore a thread or two about topics that they don't want to discuss, as I do with the multitude of spam threads. I try not to comment on contentious issues. However, as I've said, I view man made climate change as a moral imperative to address. I think that this is by far the most pressing issue of the 21st century and the only topic that I can't ignore.
Do I regret jumping into this topic started by rockies? Yes and no. Yes, for any hurt feelings that were caused. No, because I stand by what I posted. It obviously didn't sway and vocal deniers, but hopefully someone lurker will read some of the info along the way and pause to consider the issue more deeply.
Hopefully the forum will continue to focus on small cabin living and everyone will continue to engage positively. My cabin is my passion and I welcome all the info that I can get.
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Cowracer
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# Posted: 8 Dec 2018 16:35
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Quoting: KelVarnsen It obviously didn't sway and vocal deniers
A) Why do you feel compelled to have to 'sway' Anyone? I made up my mind based on my understanding of the data and issues. That I feel differently than you does not mean I am wrong and need to be corrected. It just means we disagree. That is the #1 issue with people these days. They cannot tolerate anyone who does not agree with them. As if it's a blood insult.
B) you use "denier" as a derogatory term. I could easily call you a Climate-Change Nutjob. The only thing I deny is the hysteria swirling around this issue. Don't believe me, refer to statement "A" above. You are so worked up about this that you feel compelled to argue about it in a very condescending way with strangers on the interwebs. As with religion, abortion and Gun Rights, if YOU have a problem with something, YOU are free to alter your life in whatever manner you feel necessary. You do NOT get to alter the actions or thinking of people who disagree. No matter how precious the cause is to you... You cannot make or legislate anyone else to care about it as you do.
You might wanna keep that in mind.
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95XL883
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# Posted: 8 Dec 2018 16:43
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Borrego,
Please accept my apologies for my part in this. Your knowledge and informative posts on construction always get my attention. It would be a shame to lose you over a topic that I keep hoping will die on this forum. Again, my apologies.
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rockies
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# Posted: 8 Dec 2018 18:42
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I did not start this thread to generate a political discussion of whether climate change is real or not real. I posted it to show what has ALREADY happened within various climate zones. If your local forest is giving way to grasslands then your climate is changing. Not agreeing on WHY it is changing does not eliminate the fact that it has changed.
As such, there are certain things that may affect your property now that were not a concern before, such as an increased risk for wildfires. I think this discussion ties in perfectly with the primary reason for this site, which is to allow people to gather information on creating a safe and secure property and build a cabin that can withstand whatever mother nature may throw at it, now or in the future.
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orangetom1999
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# Posted: 8 Dec 2018 19:15 - Edited by: orangetom1999
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There is nothing wrong with a person and or individual downsizing or making their home more efficient with the consumables they use. To me this is simply being an efficient and good steward...of the resources we do utilize.
Figuring out how to get better gasoline mileage is just good sense to me..perhapsed not so much for the environment but for my wallet.
It was so too with the more efficient windows I had put in my home....not so much for the environment but for the wallet.
However...since putting them in..the new windows I noted that my gas heater does not cycle as often and neither does it remain on for long durations as was the case before installing these new design windows. To me ..I should have done this task years before.
I ride a scooter ..both winter and summer....not so much for the environment but again for my wallet. I do not work far from my place of employment as do some...about 8 miles and therefore a 16 mile round trip. I save my car and truck gas for weekends or hauling larger loads.
The Scooters are also set up to handle groceries as long as I do not have a huge quantity.
These scooters are remarkably efficient for what they are.
When gasoline was going up rapidly some years ago many people would stop and ask me about them.
I've been riding scooters and mopeds for many many years though I have a car , truck, and van.
Going on a trip up into Pennsylvania some years ago I discovered that the Amish have some wonderfully tended fields with animal power. Not huge corporate fields but very nice fields.
On a corporate level this will not be possible with Animal power.
People will starve from lack of fuel for the farms or for the ability to transport goods to and fro.
Most people in most countries have no clue how the goods and products get to the stores in highly and economically developed nations. Not a clue. The shelves are full and they have not a clue how it got there.
We take bananas for granted...they just show up at the grocery store..but not a clue how they got here.
Get rid of fossil fuels and people are going to begin dying off en mass...all across this world.
Remember which nations are food exporting nations and which are importing.
Climate change is going to be population control..by the time the get done with it.
I remember being shocked in watching a documentary of divers off the harbor in Alexandria, Egypt and their discovering plenty of Ancient Egyptian Artifacts underwater in the harbor.
As the divers swam with their cameras..I was stunned at the condition of the water...
I realized that I was looking at raw sewage floating by...in the harbor at Alexandria.
I was told later by fellow workers who had been in the US Navy..that the harbor stinks to high heaven..because of all the junk dumped into it. So too does great parts of the city.
And Alexandria is not the only harbor in the world like this.
Stuff like this ..and I stopped feeling guilty or ashamed by these climate people trying to foist off shame, blame, and guilt in the manner they so do.
You have to know and start thinking for yourself....observe the world around you in certain documentaries for things no one wants you to see and remember.
Remember all this stuff about ozone depletion and the destruction of our atmosphere leading to harsh radiation levels down here.???
So why do nations shoot astronauts above the protective ozone to be radiated in outer space?????
Duhhhhhhhh!!!!!???
You are not suppose to be able to think that far...dummy...emote instead of think!!!
Some of us thought that one through years before the Challenger disaster.
Thinking can be difficult at times....and then there is
Climate Change.
Emoting is much easier than thinking and tends to make many people feel better about themselves even if someone is deceiving them. Then comes the blame game...so popular today.
My non Ishmaelite .02,
Orangetom
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orangetom1999
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# Posted: 8 Dec 2018 20:09 - Edited by: orangetom1999
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by Cowracer from page 2 of this thread...
Just so we are clear... I am 100% in favor of things that help clean our world and improve our environment. While we can debate how much such actions will actually affect it, I think it absolutely crucial that we start thinking in those term sooner rather than later.
No problem by me with working for a cleaner world and or environment. I've been to nations where they have crapped out their environment.
I just don't go along with coercion for which governments are often want to do to their people in the name of this or that.
Want people to go along with this ..make in economically feasible for people to do it...not force them by law. You very often have to use law to "herd" people to do things into which they would not on their own buy...or go along.
My only issue is the whole industry that has sprung up around it, that propose increasing taxes or otherwise impacting my life in a (usually futile) effort to stop something we may not fully understand yet.
I remember talking with a fellow who made frames for water beds...and he was trying to figure out along with others in the business how to get his state legislature to go along with the idea of forcing people to buy water beds to assist with their health...it was supposed to be good for them.
You really want to cut CO2 emissions? Then we should have Nuclear Power Plants from one coast of this nation to the other. Boom. Done.
But none of the "experts" in climate change wants that. A) the word Nuclear scares the bejeebus out of them, and B) there is really no way for them to continue to make millions of dollars if they actually fix the problem
Agree...but......
You should be careful...about this solution ..it is fraught with difficulties in itself.
You need people involved in it ..particularly at the engineering levels who have a good attention span.
Also people doing the work who have the same....a good attention span..and able to follow procedures.
You also need to be reprocessing the spent fuel...not have it laying around in pools of water....wherein it can be vulnerable to a terrorist attack now days.
Loose the water in those pools and you have a huge problem...huge...just like Fukashima, Japan.
Keeping spent fuel around in pools of water for years and years is a wholesale stupid idea...and not often talked about to the American People for what it is. Stupid stupid stupid.
You gotta be educated to be this stupid.
Talk about an environmental disaster in the making....there it is.
My non Ishmaelite .02,
Orangetom
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