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honusbam
Member
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# Posted: 14 Mar 2011 20:57 - Edited by: honusbam
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Hello! This is my first post. I have enjoyed browsing through the site and viewing your projects.
I recently purchased a 2 acre lot in the Rocky Mountains, near Huntsville Utah. My plan was to use this as a camping spot, as it is remote, yet only 30 miles from home. First order of business is to build the facilities. Easier said than done. Come to find out that a privy, with or without a hole (yes, even composting or incinerating toilets) is against the law and a Class B Misdemeanor in our glorious state (unless in a national forest, where you can do whatever the 'crap' you want).
I am guessing that they would even have problems with dishwater/soapy water hitting the ground. The only option is either a trailer with facilities (I don't own one...with facilities) or septic. Septic requires water, and we also don't have that.
So, any thoughts on how to preserve sanity by escaping to the mountains while not getting a record for health code violations? Anyone else experienced similar restrictions and creatively resolved?
My goal is to have a small cabin < 100 sqft, kitchen & facilities. nothing too glamorous.
Your thoughts are kindly appreciated on this matter of grave concern. :-)
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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 14 Mar 2011 21:17
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In our area, Feds supersede state and county regs in regard to composting toilets, of which they wholeheartedly support.
Our county totally ixnay'd any kind of composting design, and of course never mentioned any over rulings....
Please check this out.
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BlaineHill
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# Posted: 14 Mar 2011 21:31
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I read stories like this and I am completely blown-away by how regulations vary by region and country. I don't think I could get a building inspector or health inspector to visit my property even if I tried. I don't have any suggestions but wanted to thank you for helping me build a frame of reference. Wow.
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bugs
Member
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# Posted: 14 Mar 2011 21:52
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Maybe an incinerating toilet would pass the rules. But then again that could be considered air pollution/smog......But then some good refried beans or chili and a pint o' ale may also cause air pollution too.
Sometimes rules/self important god-like rule makers go amuck.
The dishwater thing is a bit absurd especially with the availability of "green" soaps of all sorts. Wonder if showers/baths are included? Better make sure you don't get caught in a rain shower or you will have to turn yourself in.
Hope you can figure out how to bypass this obstacle.
Looking forward to see how you build and furnish you micro cabin.
Best of luck
bugs
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turkeyhunter
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# Posted: 14 Mar 2011 22:18
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solar shower. and a porta potty........hey your camping ,-)
and just happen to have a small building on site for storage of camping supplies...............:-)))))
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rayyy
Member
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# Posted: 15 Mar 2011 16:40
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Yahhhhh,,,what they don't know won't hurt-em!If they do happen to come knocking at your door with a search warrent that states,We know your harboring an illeagle toilet,just drop a fake palm tree or yukka plant or somthin into it and say wahhhh,you don't like my decore!It's a porta-poty that doesn't have to go anywhere,for crying out loud.Mannn,I just can't believe these idiot's that come up with these rules.Composting toilets are very popular in states that have no abundent water supply.
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honusbam
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# Posted: 15 Mar 2011 19:06
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the official reply from county health department:
You don't have to have a trailer. But if you do plan on building any structure on the property you will need water and septic.
You can use the hauling method. If you want to use a 5 gallon bucket you can, or a porta-potty would work as well. They can be emptied at any RV dump station or in your toilet at home if you'd like. They key here is building a structure. If you build a structure, this is not an option. You have to have water and septic.
There is no distinction between grey water and black water in our wastewater regulations. They both have the potential to contain pathogens and contaminants that are dangerous to public health and the environment. Technically, that wastewater should be disposed of in an approved method. Surface discharges and non-permitted drainage trenches are not approved methods.
If your intent is to tent camp on this lot a few times throughout the summer, my recommendation would be to invest in a porta-potty and a privacy tent. Cost would be $150.00 to $200.00 and they can be easily transported in and out with you. A 5 to 10 gallon jug could be used to collect the other wastewater and it can all be disposed of at the closest RV dump.
Funny that the planning commission will allow a small shed without water/septic, but health department won't. Talk about crossed wires!
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turkeyhunter
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# Posted: 15 Mar 2011 20:49
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i would have never asked them............
what some CRAZY RULES!!!!
The whole country DUMPS on this Great Planet, and they don't even want you to take a DUMP in the woods on YOUR own property.
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Rob_O
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# Posted: 15 Mar 2011 21:54
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Quoting: honusbam Funny that the planning commission will allow a small shed without water/septic, but health department won't. Talk about crossed wires!
Don't tell anyone or they might figure it out.
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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 15 Mar 2011 22:19
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If you build it (and don't tell them) they won't come
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honusbam
Member
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# Posted: 15 Mar 2011 22:24
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Quoting: Gary O If you build it (and don't tell them) they won't come
that is the impression I get. The minute you start asking questions you learn you need a permit to fart, and forget about anything else, but if you build it and they find out afterwards...NBD
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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 15 Mar 2011 22:52
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To be serious, in a lot of remote areas, neighbors are the big concern.
If they are good with what you are doing, then the local legal authorities will turn their heads (as a rule).
Common sense is to be applied.
How long should you sit at a stop light if it doesn't turn green, it's 4:30 am, and you are the only one on the road?
Or should you call the police dept?
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Jerry
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# Posted: 16 Mar 2011 09:58
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Hard to find a good answer to this one, but it's a hell of a world when government turns honest men into lawbreakers. Me, I've given up getting permits. If I want to improve my cabin and get a permit to do it I'd have to update my graywater system, my privy and my well location. They all work well, but they're within mere feet of being compliant with existing rules (shoreline setback rules). They were compliant when installed by the original builder, but now they aren't so I'm grandfathered in UNTIL I want to improve the property.
When I've applied for permits in the past, even those issuing the permits are unsure of the hows and whys. For example, I was buiding a privy on another property and the permit instructions called for a self closing toilet cover. I'd never heard of one and when I asked where to get one the permit office said "don't know, don't worry about it, no one does it." Makes you wonder if the permit is more about collecting the fees.
And after the property assessor stopped by my cabin to set the assessment for the coming year, I asked if they look for permits for new construction. Her reply - "no, we want to raise your assessment".
So, from here on out I'll just get it done and if the S hits the fan, then I'll deal with it. Good luck to you in whatever you decide is your best route.
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SmlTxCabin
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# Posted: 16 Mar 2011 18:16
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At many points in my life I had seriously considered moving to Colorado. I visit often and the peace and calm that I experience there is unmatched. As much as I love Texas, there isn't a place here that has such a majestic feel (to me). Unfortunately Colorado has much the same restrictions and laws when building on the land. I understand wanting to preserve the natural landscape, but some of the rules are silly. Anyway. I think it sad that people who would take good care of the land and respect it are handcuffed from being able to do so by local laws and restrictions. It is very sad.
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MikeOnBike
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# Posted: 20 Mar 2011 00:05
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So is this guy breaking the law?
http://enviroletbuzz.com/archives/2008/12/000790.html
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honusbam
Member
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# Posted: 20 Mar 2011 00:45
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Yes, and probably doesn't even know it. Ignorance is bliss.
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Scott_T
Member
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# Posted: 20 Mar 2011 10:37
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I've concluded that it's important to get to know the people in the local government permitting offices - meet them, talk to them, befriend them. If you are an out-of-towner they'll be suspicious. I figure if they like you they're probably more apt to help you.
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Laurence
Member
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# Posted: 4 Jul 2011 06:54
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So i take it any animals on your property use a porta potty :-)
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rayyy
Member
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# Posted: 4 Jul 2011 12:29
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Now theres an idea,Laurence.Maybe I can teach my 2 horses to go in a porta potty.That would be great!
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Borrego
Member
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# Posted: 4 Jul 2011 13:02
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Out where we have our cabin, there are some other properties around. Very rarely does anyone get a permit for anything. So the question would be a) are the governmental inspectors likely to wander by your property? or b) will a neighbor turn you in? If the answer to both of these is no, then screw 'em and do what you want on your own property! Jeeez it's getting ridiculous out there.....
As we in construction say "it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission" ;-)
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grinnil
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# Posted: 6 Jul 2011 14:44
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yep, nothin like livin in a communist democracy
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nicalisa
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# Posted: 6 Jul 2011 21:50
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We were told that we could not have an outhouse any longer and therefore a septic system needed to be installed before we could use the bathroom on our property.... so we have a legal port a potty....our options (legal) waste can be hauled out of our water access only property and empty in the sewage system, boat it back over and replace.... or we can (illegal) dig a hole empty holding tank, clean and replace.
Given the total amount is less than 1.5 good bear "piles" I am thinking that unless the inspector is there at the very same time "if" we decided to dig said hole.....you get the idea:)
Pretty sad as an outhouse would compost better than a bunch of holes!
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mrmiji
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# Posted: 6 Jul 2011 22:25 - Edited by: mrmiji
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The sad part is that rugged individualism has been turned into a hobby for most of North America and people simply accept nanny-states rule rather than making a hobby of getting in their faces and making "authorities" justify the laws with their actual proof of "expertise" and "science". Most of it would just fall down in the face of logic. Animals crap in the woods constantly, cattle are massive converters of vegetation to waste, but my fecal matter is as dangerous as a Japanese nuclear reactor?
We're not talking about the FDA inspecting commercially sold meat that society mindlessly accepts as safe. That's important for a society that's moved away from subsistence living. We're talking about the true impact of your waste disposed of with some common sense and filtered through the soil and broken down with the same organic processes leveraged and accelerated in public sewage "treatment" plants. There's no justification for this intrusiveness. In fact, a youtube video of a health department employee putting a diaper on a bear is the image everyone should have of these unelected officious twits...being mauled.
The health department should be forced to prove whatever system you're using is affecting property immediately below you on the watershed before they deny you your property rights.
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millstream
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# Posted: 21 Jul 2011 23:06
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What about a composting pot that is rated already for marine use? We use a Sun-mar model, and the "excess liquid" is piped to sand pit. Maybe if it is already rated and not a home built model you'd have an easier time of getting it through?..?
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Scott_T
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# Posted: 23 Jul 2011 21:51
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Quoting: mrmiji There's no justification for this intrusiveness
I agree. We as property owners pretty much accept the rules as they are without question most of the time perhaps because it takes a lot of time, effort and patience to change the rules. When I discussed my humanure composting toilet with the county health department my contact indicated that he was not familiar with the concept nor did current regulations allow for such methods to be employed. So he defaulted to "you need a septic system". So while my guy was generally understanding and empathetic to my situation he was stuck with toeing the line on enforcement.
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PlicketyCat
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# Posted: 28 Jul 2011 15:17
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We can only hope that the green movement turns around some of these misguided regs. Maybe once more folks are safely using alternative toilet and greywater systems there will be more definitive evidence to convince the planning and health departments to get the hell out of our bathrooms!
Septic -- really?! -- nearly half the country is in drought and you want us to keep crapping in our good water, then mix that blackwater (that they made us create!) with barely dirty greywater that could have been used for irrigation?!?! Fidjits! Even if you had a well and weren't hauling it in, you're still using twice the water than you need to (and fuel for hauling or pumping).
A friend of mine has a remote place in the SC hills and they demanded install septic and a well... BUT... wouldn't approve her site for either! ::smack smack smack:: They finally allowed her to use a 5 gallon porta-potty and a 42 gallon portable waste tank for her greywater (with chemicals!). She has to take both in to dump at a sanitary transfer station and pay per gallon.
And you know what they do with the waste from there? Separate out the effluent water, minimally treat and sell it to farmers as irrigation water; and then compost the solids and sell it as garden compost/mulch. ::smack smack smack:
Seems like the UltraLav or Royal Restroom toilet/shower trailers are the way to go if you have to deal with at least some of that nonsense. Cuz we're all made of money, right? Don't know if you can buy them, or only rent them though... still, I'm pretty sure you could make something similar with RV/marine parts and an enclosed cargo trailer.
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ogob
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# Posted: 29 Jul 2011 03:11
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Here are two thoughts. First, get a copy of the law and see what the legal definition of 'structure' is by that law. There is a book, "Twelve by Twelve" that talks about the builder's reason for those deminsions was to come in under the radar for legal 'structure' in SC if I recall. Her's was for tax reasons but maybe you can use that. If the size is too small for you, build more than one (e.g. A sleep house, cook house, etc.) The second half of this would be to set up a composting system like the Humanure Handbook. It uses 5 gal buckets and if checked on they could be presented as 'to be hauled away' ;) For good measure you could put other stuff into the pile, a few banana and onion peels would help mask it's purpose.
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 13 Aug 2011 20:03
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In Wisconsin, they have adopted a uniform building code that says any structure built for human habitation has to be at least 730 sq. ft. That's 27 x 27' building ! But the code also says that you don't need a building permit for any out building or garage....I can't tell you the number of parcels around there that have nothing but a garage sitting on it . Curious that they all have wood burners stoves and you never see the car parked inside.
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trollbridge
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# Posted: 14 Aug 2011 20:47
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Would you be able to get away with a holding tank? This is what we did to get around some of the problems we had and it may work for you too. We have a picture of ours under members project. You would have to get it pumped by a certified plumber but we have had ours 3 years now and haven't had to pump yet. The toilet is built right in and the whole thing is made of fiberglass.
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 11 Mar 2012 18:20
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Get a mining permit or start fracking the lands and you can dump anything anywhere you want, toxic or not. But want to build a privy or need bale of hay if disturbing the land with a road and the reg's will put you in jail
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