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snobdds
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# Posted: 14 Aug 2020 14:13 - Edited by: snobdds
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So the below picture has caused quite a stir on another forum I'm part of. This guy hired out an addition to be added. This guy lost his marbles when he saw how this window was framed saying it was overkill and he doesn't want to pay for the extra wood being used.
I think it's fine. A lot of this is carry over from 2x4 framing and no sheeting which needed more wood in a wall to get the rigidity and racking strength. Some framers just kept it going.
Now most build with 2x6 and use sheet goods to get good strong walls with no racking.
When my dad and I built our cabin, I noticed he tended to frame like the picture. I did the single king studs and later on when putting on hardy board, my framing was much harder to get the siding fastened to the meat of the wood without cracking the brittle hardy board at windows and doors. Where he framed, I had plenty of wood to come back 2 inches and hit a solid stud without breaking.
For a house with cement siding, all openings should have double king studs.
Anyways, what are your thoughts?
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jhp
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# Posted: 14 Aug 2020 14:33
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"Lost his marbles" at using two extra 8' 2x4s per window/door? That's like $6 per window or door? Maybe $100 extra bucks on a whole new house build? Guy sounds like a cheapskate to me.
I prefer to overbuild everything where it matters. If I think a 2x6 should be fine I'll probably use 2x8 instead. If I think cheap deck screws will work, I'll probably buy the construction screws with 5x the shear strength just in case. If I use four screws for a joint I'll throw in two more and a bead of glue because $.10 is cheap insurance for it not coming apart.
When I contract someone to build something for me, I tell them that strength and maintenance free are the most important aspects. I hate doing things twice.
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ICC
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# Posted: 14 Aug 2020 15:25 - Edited by: ICC
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Yes.
For that width of an opening it only needs one full height stud and one jack stud to support the header. The tables will indicate when an opening is wide enough to require a second jack stud to support the header. That is dependent on width of opening and the upper loads (as in second or third story loads from above)
My criticism of the wall pictured is fourfold.
1. The extra two full height studs are not needed and therefore a waste of materials. Not the cost to the owner so much as that the materials simply are not needed there. But reason #2 is bigger.
2. The extra stud reduces the thermal efficiency of the wall. It's not so bad if full sheet exterior foam insulation is to be used, but with just infill insulation that is not a thermally efficient wall.
3. The exterior sheathing has been applied horizontally. There should not be any un-nailed panel edges anywhere. As shown the wall has lost some of its lateral force resistance. That could be rectified by nailing in blocking between the studs and nailing the sheathing edge to the blocking. But that too reduces thermal efficiency.
4. That window probably did not need a 2x12 header. Any indication whether or not that is a single or a double 2x12? A single is way more than enough. If that is a single story, if the building was 20 ft wide at that point, a single 2x12 could span up to almost 7 feet. If that is a 4 foot wide opening, no floor above, a single 2x8 could have been used. That leaves space for more insulation to increase energy efficiency. I know many builders who use a 2x12 or doubled 2x12 because then the low paid framering crew don't have to think, everything is the same.
I've never had a problem with splitting Hardi edges as long as I was placing the nails the right distance from edges and corners. Hardi can be directly nailed to minimum 7/16" OSB sheathing so the stud position is immaterial. Hardi does have instruction for applications over non nailable surfaces like foam too.
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snobdds
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# Posted: 14 Aug 2020 15:57 - Edited by: snobdds
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Overbuilt isn’t a bad thing for sway/wind or snow loads. What’s it cost $7 more per opening to have a double king stud and roughly $6 per foot of header if it’s tripled up. When the header is nailed to the top plate like that you can feel it in the wall when you stand it how much stronger it is like that. Go into older spec or economy built houses and look for drywall cracks above the window corners Because of wind movement on the houses.You gotta build for your areas snow or wind load possibilities. Not everything can be taught in a book or caught by an inspector in my opinion.
While talking about overbuilt structures, the builder of my house used LVL for the framing in the kitchen. Expensive detail but when you hang 40K worth of cabinetry it goes so much easier and looks better with super flat walls.
In a super cold or super hot environment I would like to see a thermal camera image of just how much R value loss you get with that King stud And sill being doubled up...proofs in the pudding sort of deal. With all the house wrap and tape we use these days I would think it’s pretty minimal.
I’ve used buffalo board between headers before instead of plywood and would think that would help but 2†thick rigid foam between header material basically kills all the strength I would think you get from them getting layered and nailed wood to wood. I see two stack together/nailed on the exterior side and then packed out with rigid foam and plywood inside for Trim nailers Often but the nails don’t hold as well. When I attach trim I generally use the rule of 125% of nail into framing of the thickness of the trim material. So roughly a 3/4†board needs the nail to pass through sheeting and go an 1 1/4†into framing material.
As far as siding, the extra king stud and sill are needed if the exterior has trim so you have framing to nail the siding to around the window. This isn’t an issue when the new construction siding goes over the window flange. However in 25-40 year range the window will need replacing but not necessarily the siding. You have to cut the siding back to remove the window and then use trim to cover the new windows flange back up and without that second king stud and sill your out of luck getting the siding nailed properly on the ends. That’s another scenario that it’s a convenience for later.
From a liability standpoint after a builder has to pay for drywall cracks time after time a year after the house has been finished they start to say no more and just over frame it and tell the efficiency minded guys to pound sand...I am doing it my way because your way cost me money later...again that’s my $.02 opinion. Not trying to be offensive just a critical Conversation of how everyone tries to tell us how to do our jobs from Architect To engineers that don’t help pay the fix it bills later!
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ICC
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# Posted: 14 Aug 2020 18:16 - Edited by: ICC
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Quoting: snobdds You gotta build for your areas snow or wind load possibilities.
Absolutely true. That is why IRC uses wind loads of 90 mph for most of the country and why snow loads are specifically called out on a map. In the west many locations do not have "book" snow loads as they can and do vary too much in just a few miles distance. If properly built to code and local specifics and properly inspected against sloppy work and shortcuts most homes should be structurally sound.
Quoting: snobdds .I am doing it my way because your way cost me money later...
I do not think in the 30-some years my that my brother has had his construction business we ever had drywall cracks above windows or doors or anywhere else in the homes he built. I worked with him most of those years for a month or two at a time when I could.
I have seen cracks at window and door corners on other work, but that was usually when whoever hung the drywall incorrectly placed a joint right at the corner. That is a drywall no-no. That detail is not covered in the IRC and I would not expect it to be. The IRC is about structural strength and safety. Properly built buildings don't sway enough to cause damage unless the circumstances are outside the realm of normal. Tornadoes, earthquakes, building on improperly compacted soil or poor soil, clay, and the like. Sometimes the location is to blame. Clay is a bugger to deal with; glad we haven't had much of that where we are.
Quoting: snobdds Not everything can be taught in a book or caught by an inspector in my opinion.
Two separate ideas there. The second, about the inspector is true. Not all inspectors are conscientious. Not all inspectors should actually have the job as they do not fully understand code. But most that I have known are conscientious.
The first, about book learning is not quite true. You can learn very much about construction from books. From what I have seen some of the students aren't paying attention or have trouble understanding the "why" about doing certain things a certain way. On the job learning is also a part of construction school. But construction school doesn't teach how to calculate wind loads, roof loads and so on. Engineering school teaches that. From books, or rather from or with computers these days. That is good and bad and sometimes no different in the end.
I learned engineering drawing (drafting) with paper and pencil. My nephew did the same stuff but on a PC. He can turn out the same work in less time.
Quoting: snobdds everyone tries to tell us how to do our jobs from Architect To engineers
Their jobs are different, sometimes overlap. I have known a few over the years. Some were better than others just like some dentists, doctors, butchers, bakers, and candlestick makers are better than others. I obviously could be biased but have a very good engineer in the family.
Quoting: snobdds In a super cold or super hot environment I would like to see a thermal camera image of just how much R value loss you get with that King stud And sill being doubled up
That is done; probably examples on the web you could see. We/my brother has used thermal imaging when quoting on some renovations. The less insulated spots can be seen. Looking after details like that is how one can get a home that costs very little to heat or cool and save those resotces. If saving resources does not resonate with you, then there is nothing more that I can say other than have a good day.
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darz5150
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# Posted: 14 Aug 2020 21:44
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Quoting: ICC 2. The extra stud reduces the thermal efficiency of the wall. It's not so bad if full sheet exterior foam insulation is to be used, but with just infill insulation that is not a thermally efficient wall.
Any time you cut out a section of a wall and put in a window. It is not as thermally efficient. Correct?
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ICC
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# Posted: 14 Aug 2020 22:01 - Edited by: ICC
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Yeah a window is a BIG hole but we stopped living in windowless caves and hovels a while back. Should we not try to mitigate that as much as possible?
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darz5150
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# Posted: 14 Aug 2020 22:06 - Edited by: darz5150
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Certainly. Lol. If he was asking about building something stronger than it needs to be to ensure longevity. The point seems moot to talk about 2 2 x 4s etc. that aren't thermally efficient, while overlooking probably a 12 square foot of thermal inefficiency.
Your hovel comment did make me laff tho. Thanks.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 15 Aug 2020 00:11
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The only downside I can see to over framing is the thermal break deal on insulation ICC spoke of.
I'm an HD guy and tend to error on the side of HD if I am in doubt. I realize the code is set and engineering is all ready done on conventional stick built. But having the extra meat at the end of the sheeting is a nice feature. And if you ever want to build HD proof window covers or bars to anchor in place during away season to prevent or slow down theft, this meat would be great to anchor it to.
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Brettny
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# Posted: 15 Aug 2020 08:27
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I only see two extra studs. It may look worse than it actually is but drywall and sheething being 16oc you need nailers. If the guy wanted to save $4 per window then he should have placed the windows next to a stud that was 16oc or go 24oc. And of he really wanted to save money put a smaller window in or no window at all.
People really like to belly ach online over next to nothing.
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ICC
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# Posted: 15 Aug 2020 09:52 - Edited by: ICC
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The OP asked a question and then sounds pissed about some replies or comments that don't fit his way of thinking. ???
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DaveBell
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# Posted: 15 Aug 2020 20:17
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Look at the top right corner of the window opening. Three 2x12's. Those wall studs are 2x6's.
Quoting: snobdds he doesn't want to pay for the extra wood being used.
Since labor is the major cost driver, he is crying over nothing. If he didn't have good specs and design in writing, pay up.
Quoting: ICC But reason #2 is bigger. 2. The extra stud reduces the thermal efficiency of the wall.
True, is R-value of wood is 1.5 per inch, and since that monster glass opening is worse, not really a big deal.
ICC, see the cantilever on the top left and the two lag bolts on the top right. I wonder if there is a deck that wall needs to support?
Quoting: Brettny People really like to belly ache online over next to nothing.
I agree. Not enough data in the OP to draw any conclusions.
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ICC
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# Posted: 15 Aug 2020 22:10
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Quoting: DaveBell ICC, see the cantilever on the top left and the two lag bolts on the top right. I wonder if there is a deck that wall needs to support?
That detail never clicked. ??? Not a normal thing. Poor way to support anything that might bear much weight.
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snobdds
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# Posted: 20 Aug 2020 12:22
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Quoting: ICC The OP asked a question and then sounds pissed about some replies or comments that don't fit his way of thinking. ???
Wut?
I was at my cabin the past few days putting up cement siding, no ducking because I didn't like the responses. This is a forum with vast opinions, which I welcome. 
I don't think that window opening was over framed. If you look at it just in the window framing context, ok it's robust. However if you think of the trim work and siding work that needs to be done later once the framing is covered, over framing becomes a worthwhile endeavor. One can't be super focused on just one aspect of building and fail to see the bigger picture overall.
Putting up cement siding these past few days have taught me to over frame window and door openings. It's so much easier build quality with more structure behind a wall.
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willywilly2020
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# Posted: 20 Aug 2020 17:42
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I don't think it's over-framed.
- Double sill justification: it's a tall window.
- Double king justification: shear strength since it's close to edge of wall.
- Beefy header justification: extra header provides increased nailing surface for additional shear strength. Though this is probably where it was really overkill, could be it was just extra wood left over from other header? Been there...
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