Small Cabin

# Posted: 24 Jan 2019 16:08
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I hope somebody can help me with this. I am in Ontario, Canada. I am building a 720ft2 cabin. I would like to have 8 lights (LED) and 2 outlets wired to run off an inverter(solar) to power a radio or charge a phone or laptop. I then NEED according to code, an electrical panel with (3) 15amp breakers(I'm guessing), which I want run off of a generator. How do I do this? Hard wire an extension cord from the 30amp outlet of the genny to a pony panel containing the 3 breakers? I'm so ready for some guidance! Thank you.

Just
Member

# Posted: 24 Jan 2019 20:50
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Most off grid systems are intergrated together . So you need to determine your entire load in Watts .Even though some are different volts . In Ontario if you need a inspection before occupancy you should hire a licenced electrician.

# Posted: 25 Jan 2019 11:09
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Thanks for the info. Lighting will be LED (100 watts max for all bulbs combined), bath fan at 50w, ceiling fan at 75w, range hood at 180w, stove blower at 120w and an hrv at 75w. Including surge wattage and all things on at once, I may be near 850 watts total. My inverter will be 2000w pure sine....1000w per outlet (there are 2). That will handle the house running on batteries. Genny will be at least 3500w (3750 surge). At no time will any cabin outlet power anything more than a cell charger, DVD player or radio, so I'm not concerned about the inverter. If I need a power tool run or a blow dryer (wifeðŸ˜), I will ensure that the genny is fired up. Whenever genny is on, I will be topping up the batteries with a charger. I'm really hoping for precise advice on size of panel, main breaker size, possibly a wiring diagram for inside the box and a wiring diagram going out to the grounding rod. My guess is that I will install a 2 pole 30a main breaker? Then have (3) 15a breakers supplying power to lights and receptacles and possibly (1) 20a split for kitchen receptacle? Again, any advice is much appreciated. As an aside, fridge and stove will be propane.

Just
Member

# Posted: 25 Jan 2019 12:44
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sounds like you have a good handle on every thing
I would think a 1000 watt panel array and a 30 amp mppt charge controler. what is your choice of batteries ???

Nate R
Member

# Posted: 25 Jan 2019 13:03
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You need watt HOURS. You have the loads, now how long is each going to be run in a day?

ICC
Member

# Posted: 25 Jan 2019 14:26 - Edited by: ICC
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Nate is correct. The wattage of the loads is only 50% of the question. The time each load will be used is needed for calculating how much storage is needed.

If there will be an inspection check with the electrical people is you can use that inverter to feed any circuits built into the cabin. In the US an inverter with outlets built into it cannot be hardwired into a home electrical system, legally. That cannot meert the NEC (code) requirements. No idea how different ithat may all be in Canada, but I know thry have rules and an inspection pretty much means you need to follow them.

Also what about insurance? DIY not to code may not be insurable. Best to check with the local governing body and your insurance company.

Ontario lakeside
Member

# Posted: 25 Jan 2019 22:13
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Hey Snoop

This might be overkill for what you describe but I have a cottage the same size and similar power needs. my system. you can see my setup here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfilBtej3t4&t=10s

Where's your place? Im in the Kawarthas. Creeky (another forum member) Designed my system and has others smaller and bigger.

Best of luck

# Posted: 26 Jan 2019 07:53
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Your system looks sweet! My place is on Salerno Lake, or rather, Salerno Lake bush lot with no lake access. Beauty 5 acres of hardwood in Irondale...near Minden, Kinmount, Gooderham, Haliburton, etc. I currently have a tiny house/bunkie on the property...8x12 with loft, woodstove, sink, bistro table. Between outlets and lights, I have 10 of them on 1 'circuit'...I have no breaker panel at all...I have 4 feet of male end out 12-2 outdoor electrical cord hanging out of the bottom of the bunkie...inside, I have direct wired the other end to a GFCI receptacle under the sink and run things in series off of that outlet...the whole tiny place is GFCI protected. When I'm running on solar, the male plugs into an inverter under the bunkie. If I am low on battery power, I unplug the place from solar and plug into 1000w whisper genny! I then grab my charger (not integrated), plug into an outdoor insulated GFCI and start charging the bank (4). No suicide cords. Cute little setup. But I was able to build my, ahem...., shed, with no permit. Cottage is a whole new ball game. I will need to wire by the book. I must have an hrv. So I figure I will need (2) 15a breakers for lights and receptacles, probably (1) 20a split in the kitchen and a dedicated 15a for the hrv...that way I can have it off most times! The township doesn't realize that there's not much worry about CO in the cottage with the woodstove....every place I've ever been that has a stove have windows cracked all the time to cool the place downðŸ˜! As I have in my city home (Cambridge) and the bunkie, I will have smoke and CO detectors. My biggest mental block with powering the place up is at the panel. I can mentally get power from the genny's 30a slot with a genny cord to the outside inlet on the cabin, then I'm lost at the box....wire size to main?? Main breaker size?? Switch from genny to solar?? Manual is fine...automatic switch is not a priority. I can safely, legally and easily run the entire house myself and pass ESA inspection. The panel baffles me. Any advice is much appreciated. Our places are definitely in day trip for a beer territoryðŸ˜

Ontario lakeside
Member

# Posted: 26 Jan 2019 21:37
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We rented a cottage on Salarno in 2008. Very nice area. I will attempt to soot some video of our panel next time I'm up, but we don't charge the batts from the generator.

# Posted: 27 Jan 2019 08:17
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I built an outbuilding at our primary home a couple of years ago. This is the panel I used for it: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-Homeline-125-Amp-12-Space-24-Circuit-Indoor-Main -Lug-Plug-On-Neutral-Load-Center-with-Cover-Ground-Bar-Value-Pack-HOM1224L125PGCVP/20 4836334

I know you are in Canada but hopefully this gives you a visual of what you are looking for. Wire size will likely be 10/2 from genny to main power system. Our newly purchased cabin has 10/2 run ins through conduit outside to a genny "doghouse" with a 30 amp RV plug on the end to plug directly into the genny. Another way to do it is to hardwired the genny in or to use a box with a reassessed twist-lock Male plug wired directly to the cabin electrical system and a cord made up with the matching female end on one end and a Male plugin on the other go insert into your genny.

Solar.... yeah that is a whole different ballgame. You need watt hours as Nate and ICC have explained. Here is a great place to get a handle on those numbers: https://www.solar-electric.com/solar/calc

Good luck! Don

old243
Member

# Posted: 27 Jan 2019 09:03
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Snoop, I think the 125 amp panel mentioned by Nobadays, would be a good fit. Not much point putting in the 125 amp breaker unless down the road you might hook up to grid. I would install a 30 amp double pole breaker, in one of the panel positions, making sure breaker is across both sides of the line or you won't have 240 volt power. Depending on the make of panel. Square D likely ok. This will serve as your main breaker , for the building.
Then use the method described by Nobadays. You probably also should wire your cabin completely , while all the walls are open and allow for solar if a possibility. Wiring later can be a pain. Just thoughts from an old electricion. old243

old243
Member

# Posted: 27 Jan 2019 09:15
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I believe that you can take out an inspection permit, in Ontario . To do your own work, on your own property. Best to check with power authority, do work to code, then down the road you could hook up to grid. Also probably keep insurance companies satisfied. I have been out of the loop for several years, but rules keep changing. old243

# Posted: 27 Jan 2019 09:22
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+1 on wiring the cabin completely. Sounds like you have some experience with electrical circuits and the cost and hassle factor are WAY lower with new construction.

Here is the ressessed plug that is commonly used: https://www.amazon.com/Reliance-Controls-240VAC-L14-30P-Recessed/dp/B07L9LJJ4C/ref=sr _1_2?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1548598648&sr=8-2&keywords=30+amp+240v+recessed+plug

If you will NEVER go 240v there are cheaper options

Cheers!

# Posted: 27 Jan 2019 11:50
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This is a fat thank you to all you guys helping out! Really, really appreciated! Quick question....what do you think of keeping solar and genny power totally separate? I wire the cabin for genny power, with the 4 circuits in a dedicated panel, blah blah blah. Since this is a new build, how about I run completely separate wiring for solar and have a small dedicated panel for that? Have 1extra light per room, 1extra light outside, 2 extra outlets, etc... very basic. Would require (1) 15a breaker. There would be no worries about 'switching'....I could technically have all genny powered circuits AND the solar circuit on at once. Thoughts?

# Posted: 27 Jan 2019 12:15
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My suggestion would be to look at something like this, maybe: https://www.solar-electric.com/pomaxpmautrs.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiA_JTUBRD4ARIsAL7_VeVOJj dRX6F5bZnz05kjcVgo6naJ8nGPcfBdso2wamDE0VKzPc3pTZAaAuk6EALw_wcB if your genny is like mine it doesn't have remote start capability... so not sure this switch would work.

Here is another one that may be a better fit, read the questions and answers.... https://www.solar-electric.com/pomaxpmautrs.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiA_JTUBRD4ARIsAL7_VeVOJj dRX6F5bZnz05kjcVgo6naJ8nGPcfBdso2wamDE0VKzPc3pTZAaAuk6EALw_wcB btw I'm looking for a transfer switch myself but have just started researching options.

By the time you have run wire and lights/outlets for two separate systems you could buy 3-4 transfer switches.

Cheers! Don

# Posted: 27 Jan 2019 16:26
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You are wise, Don. Cheers!

# Posted: 28 Jan 2019 11:01
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I'm in similar situation to you, will add a few comments:

I am planning on using same inlet as Nobadays posted, that way you can run 30a no problem if needed and be code compliant by not wiring directly into a "plug in" inverter. In general I am planning my system to be "30a" even though I'll use some larger wiring in some places.

As far as a panel, one of my goals (along with saving money) is to make my setup look somewhat "normal", so someone else might be able to look at it and make sense of it. To that end planning on using something similar to this panel:
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Siemens-20-Circuit-20-Space-100-Amp-Main-Breaker-Load-Center -Value-Pack/3528516
... so if there's ever a problem, basically anybody would immediately be able to figure out how to trip the main breaker (even though 100a is way overkill).

As someone who is in the process of undoing and consolidating two separate circuits I would suggest against that... too fiddly, too much "which one do I plug into" etc. My cabin has mostly 120v circuits but also has some outlets and lights wired (through regular AC household wiring, no less) for 12v... very clunky and confusing and ripe for disaster. I will be integrating everything into a single circuit.

If you want to be able to easily select between genny power and battery power just install a inverter bypass switch, then you can choose whether your genny power goes to your inverter (and to charge your batteries) or directly to your house... this way you can still get genny power even if your inverter dies for some reason.

If you have the budget for it, some of the nicer inverter/chargers have the capability to use your batteries to "boost" your generator output. So if you have something you want to run (for short period of time) that requires more juice than your generator can provide the inverter/charger will automatically get that extra power from your batteries, then when you shut that appliance down the inverter/charger will go back to charging your batteries... means you can go smaller (think lighter, better fuel economy) on generator if you think you won't need it that often knowing that the occasional item that outdraws your generator (like a bigger miter / crosscut saw or something) can still be run with a little boost from your batteries.

Steve_S
Member

# Posted: 28 Jan 2019 11:48 - Edited by: Steve_S
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Couple of random thoughts to ponder on. Also I am in Ontario and have been doing home renovations & builds for a few decades, so a wee bit of exp.

-) You can DIY your electrical and have it inspected by a licensed electrician. Make arrangements with an electrician prior to doing so, always best. Pick up a copy of "The Electrical Code Simplified" (Ontario Editions) which is I think $25 at any Home Depot, Lowes or whatever... Follow the code and your good to go... Just remember to keep it simple !

-) Turn Key "Approved" solar systems are a rare thing... they do exist but as a "Modular Package" as a "Cart" or even a standing system... These are NOT cheap ! none that I have seen and these are not intended for permanent use as such... do some research and you'll quickly find you can build better for less and more to suit your needs.

Solar Systems can be quite varied and how they work. My own system has an inverter which allows
has a built in ATS (Auto Transfer Switch) signaler built in to enable such. It can be configured to use Utility or Battery Priority.

In Utility mode, it allows for AC Inbound as priority and IF that fails, then auto switch to Battery Mode, so just like a home UPS. In Battery Mode, battery power is priority and IF that drops to the preset low point, auto signal to switch to Incoming AC. This signals an Auto-Start and kicks the genny to charge the batteries & bypass to cabin. The Inverter I used was a Marine Class unit from China.

I have the APC-3000W-24V which I bought here at http://www.energie-abordable.com/onduleurs-APC.htm Which is a Marine / Boating Oriented
group.

I used 2, 120V Panels because I have a separate Power/Pump House from my Cabin. The PH only has a small 4/8 circuit box that is fed from the Inverter and that passes to a larger panel in my cabin via a #8/3 underground run.

Below are a couple of images from my setup which likely may help explain it better.

A note on Gennies. If you want one that can autostart, ensure that it has an automatic choke and if possible the ability to use either Gas or Propane. LPG is better if it will sit unused as LPG won't sour & go bad... although it's harder to start in the cold.

Please note, I don't get on that often these days, so if you ask a question of me, it may be some time before I respond. Good Luck & Have Fun.

PS: You'll note that I am "Way Over AMP Budget" on the breakers if you total them up. Ultimately the MAX I could ever pull is 3700W surge and the 30A breaker in the powerhouse is the limiter to the cabin, I can never exceed that, unless I change my wiring (it's in place already just in case for the future). I wired everything as normal for a full on 100A system (I would never use that much anymore). Additionally the Inverter itself will protect itself from overload beyond it's surge rating.

Main Diagram

PH Panel logical

Main Panel Logical

# Posted: 28 Jan 2019 13:24
Reply

I'm in similar situation to you, will add a few comments:

I am planning on using same inlet as Nobadays posted, that way you can run 30a no problem if needed and be code compliant by not wiring directly into a "plug in" inverter. In general I am planning my system to be "30a" even though I'll use some larger wiring in some places.

As far as a panel, one of my goals (along with saving money) is to make my setup look somewhat "normal", so someone else might be able to look at it and make sense of it. To that end planning on using something similar to this panel:
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Siemens-20-Circuit-20-Space-100-Amp-Main-Breaker-Load-Center -Value-Pack/3528516
... so if there's ever a problem, basically anybody would immediately be able to figure out how to trip the main breaker (even though 100a is way overkill).

As someone who is in the process of undoing and consolidating two separate circuits I would suggest against that... too fiddly, too much "which one do I plug into" etc. My cabin has mostly 120v circuits but also has some outlets and lights wired (through regular AC household wiring, no less) for 12v... very clunky and confusing and ripe for disaster. I will be integrating everything into a single circuit.

If you want to be able to easily select between genny power and battery power just install a inverter bypass switch, then you can choose whether your genny power goes to your inverter (and to charge your batteries) or directly to your house... this way you can still get genny power even if your inverter dies for some reason.

If you have the budget for it, some of the nicer inverter/chargers have the capability to use your batteries to "boost" your generator output. So if you have something you want to run (for short period of time) that requires more juice than your generator can provide the inverter/charger will automatically get that extra power from your batteries, then when you shut that appliance down the inverter/charger will go back to charging your batteries... means you can go smaller (think lighter, better fuel economy) on generator if you think you won't need it that often knowing that the occasional item that outdraws your generator (like a bigger miter / crosscut saw or something) can still be run with a little boost from your batteries.

# Posted: 28 Jan 2019 18:44
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Idaho..... thank you! I had forgotten that many inverter/chargers do the work for you, no transfer switch needed as they recognize the new source of power. I was busy looking for a transfer switch but I do believe the inverter/charger I intend to use has this feature. Not sure about load sharing with the genny/battery bank. No sense making it harder than it needs to be.

Cheers!

# Posted: 28 Jan 2019 19:16
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Still nice to have a bypass circuit in case your inverter/charger goes belly up though.

rockies
Member

# Posted: 28 Jan 2019 19:48
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Hello. What are you doing for exterior lighting? You should have something outside the exterior doors.

Also, you should create a lighting plan for your cabin. Too many people wind up with a single ceiling bulb in the room (especially in the kitchen) and then work with shadows on the countertops (perhaps consider installing LED under cabinet strip lights for task lighting). Light where you need it is always much better than general room lighting.

As to your HRV, I too have to install one (Canadian codes). I am looking at the Canarm Micra 60 commercial single room HRV.

https://www.canarm.com/hvac/hrv-micra-60.html

It uses no ducts, can ventilate a room up to 650 sq' and uses 4.2 watts on its lowest setting (under specifications).

# Posted: 28 Jan 2019 20:38
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Wow! Loads of advice! Here's my bulk answer to all

....with all your help, I have the panel figured out!!!! I'm not installing a switch. Having a dedicated genny panel with 4 circuits. I am wiring totally separate solar....I work in new residential construction....there is massive waste, including loads of 1/2 spools of 14-2, 14-3, etc....cost to me will be nominal. Wiring is easy for me....my best friend is licensed and uses me for free labor all the time

I dont need oversight by a licensed tradesman. All I have to do is pass the inspection by the electrical safety authority at framing stage, then final. In the old days we all had a choice of 40/60/100w for bulbs. Nowadays, we can have a 5 bulb chandelier totaling 35w! I will have low watt/high lumen LED motions outside of 2 doorways, plus parking pad. On genny panel, I will have 'code following' wiring. Outlets every designated spacing, etc. Solar will be legal but basic...2 outlets inside; 1 outside. Basic lighting. The hrv mentioned by Rockies wont fly here...no venting? Our code is worried about CO, so we must bring in fresh outside air and exhaust stable inside air. The unit I have in mind draws around 70w with a surge of near 110. I have never mentioned this....water supply for dishes and handwashing will be gravity assisted, but 12v pump operated, rainwater! We will cart in drinking water or use the town tested public spring water fill up station! It's delicious water! In the house, but separated by 'double doors' will be a composting toilet. Outside will be a beauty class 3 shithouse! I hope I dont disappoint with wanting to be so simple? For the next 10 years until retirement, the cottage will be 'occasional use'....2 of 4 weekends per summer and once a month come winter. I'm just trying to get outta the tiny house so we can have people come up. Any parting advice is still most welcome! You've all been very generous. Thanks! Kevin, Julie, Radar and Lola

rockies
Member

# Posted: 28 Jan 2019 20:46
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There is venting on that HRV unit. It exhausts stale air and brings in fresh air. There is, however, no ducting required. It just mounts on the wall and does the entire space.

# Posted: 28 Jan 2019 21:20
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So sorry....looked at the hrv specs. I am dumb. It will operate the same as a wall mounted propane fired furnace I will be installing. Thanks for the link, Rockies.

# Posted: 28 Jan 2019 21:44
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To paraphrase cruising sailors:

"Go simple, go now!"