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Aragorn
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# Posted: 21 Jul 2012 16:39 - Edited by: Aragorn
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I wish there were real estate firms specializing in selling land suitable for building small cabins with no building permit. They'd be on high demand! Hey, greedy brokers where are you? I need you now!  . Seriously... they could make lots of money.... with current economy who wants to pay $$$ for building and afford paying these property taxes? Small cabins is what we want!
May manufacturers of small cabins know where these are OK without permit? That way they'd increase their sales too...
Problem: I'm in NYC, looking for a county where I can build without a permit within 2.5-3 hours drive from the city. Someone mentioned that in Ulster county, Town of Denning, permits are not required for under 144 sq. ft. Does that apply to all of the county or Denning area only? I can't find land near Denning. This is about as far as I can travel, so farther north is not good. Adirondacks is too far.
Can anyone share where in NY permits are not required/not enforced?
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VTweekender
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# Posted: 21 Jul 2012 18:43
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The "no permit" size limit is almost always (if not always) for a storage shed......the second you mention cabin the rule does not apply and you will be looking at a permit, you will need real friendly neighbors to get away with a no permit shed as a cabin. In part time recreation use, its probably not a problem if someone sees you there now and then.
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 21 Jul 2012 19:47
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The reason you won't find real estate companies like that is because what you want to do is illegal. You don't want to pay for building permits and you don't want to pay property taxes. For some of us here it has taken decades of hard work and saving to be able to afford our cabins. Since you can't even afford transportation maybe you should start saving for that as a first step towards your goal for a cabin?
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 21 Jul 2012 22:00
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Maybe just buying the land and camping on it until you can afford to build? We camped for 25 years before we had enough saved to build. Being able to set up our tent on different locations on our property helped us find the best spot for our cabin.
Also if we didn't have a truck there is no way we could even get there since it is a 300 mile drive. Not having a car is really limiting the area you can search for your land. If you can get further away from the city you will get much more for your money.
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jgiffi
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# Posted: 21 Jul 2012 22:54
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Guys/gals, he/she never mentioned they couldn't afford transportation or the fact that they didn't have a vehicle that they could use rather just that they wanted to stay within 2.5-3hrs, which I can't say that I blame them because if they have to work all week and only have a weekend to go up to their place they don't want to spend the majority of the weekend traveling. As far as what they are trying to accomplish being illegal or what not, I'm not going to judge because I can honestly say in my opinion that government is too big, wasteful spending, etc, bla bla bla and where ever you can save in property taxes, etc then by all means go ahead and try. For a recreational use/part-time/off-grid camp I don't believe they should have to pay the same taxes as someone that has utlities, lives year round, utilizes the towns/county resources more, etc. I honestly believe that you are going to have an extremely difficult time finding a county in NY state where they are going to let you get away with a part-time use camp even if its under 144 sqft. I don't mind paying the permit fees and having a building inspector verify the work its the fact that you get your property assessment jacked and you end up paying a considerable amount more in taxes! Check around but in Florence, Camden, and surrounding towns you are going to need a building permit. Have you thought about putting something on skids? It wouldn't be attached to the ground so you wouldn't need a permit and your assessment shouldn't get changed either.
Keep us up to date on how you make out.
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Aragorn
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# Posted: 22 Jul 2012 00:27 - Edited by: Aragorn
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Well, yes I did say about having no car in another thread:
"Mission Impossible: Land in upstate NY near public transportation (no car)" :
http://www.small-cabin.com/forum/5_1008_0.html
But now we decided that we can probably make some change in our income and be able to make extra $400-500 a month for car insurance, gas etc. So we're looking for small piece of land in decent location where we can get away with no permits. Ok, I understand now that I can't mention cabin... only a storage shed. But still, some counties and towns won't allow even that, and some will... So I just want to find those that will...
Therefore a feedback from New Yorkers would be appreciated on where you guys have your "sheds". Someone mentioned Ulster county, Town of Denning as being OK with that so far but I was unable to find any land there...
Camping on land is a good idea...we have to think it over.... But still, of we ever want to build on it, it'd be nice if the land would be in an area where officials were more or less OK with that.
Something mobile (on wheels) is a different matter... I don't mind.... I suppose it's easier not to get in trouble with it? There's not much info about it here... I think the biggest issue is that it can be towed (stolen)?
We DID find a 950 sqf cabin in bad condition in a very wooden area, for an acceptable price, 2.5 hrs driving. But I checked documents and guess what... I'll have to pay $2,500 property taxes on it every year... Unbelievable. Rejected that of course....
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rayyy
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# Posted: 22 Jul 2012 07:36
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To be honest with you most countys in new york state have gone to a genaric,cookie cutter,one size fit's all,zoneing regulations.It is grossely contredictive from one page to the next,but Iv'e sat and read through it for hours.They got everything covered.Bottem line is,if it's got 2 walls and a roof,it is a considered a building.They want you to build a primary house or a barn.It's either agracultural or its residential.No other option anymore.There use to be a recreational catagory but that doesn't exist any more(at least in my county).If you call it a house,it's got a whole bunch of expensive hoops to jump through.If you call it a barn,shed,garage,than they say it's agracultural,therefor it's a business and you must show proof that you carry new york state workmens comp.Only way around this is to sign a swarn statement that you are building it by your self with no other outside contractors or helpers involved.So file for a permit for a storage shed,Fill out all the paperwork.Pay the building permit fee and buy or build your shed,get it inspected.You'll pay taxes on it but it won't be that much more added on to land tax.
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VTweekender
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# Posted: 22 Jul 2012 08:12 - Edited by: VTweekender
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good advice from rayyy, just get a shed permit and go from there.
Here is a parcel in Orange County, might be something http://www.cheapusland.com/props/for-sale-5-1-acres-in-orange-county-ny-price-slashed -19900/
For getting a trailer stolen, jack it under the frame, take the wheels off and lower jacks onto blocks, skirt around it if desired, take the wheels home. Hard to steal it with no wheels.
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jgiffi
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# Posted: 22 Jul 2012 11:01
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I would consider setting it on 6x6 PT posts used as skids because you won't need a permit, as long as it isn't attached/anchored to the ground.
Another thing to consider is that in the town where my camp is we aren't allowed outhouses, you have to have a septic system or a chemical toilet. You also need permits for a well, septic system, etc
I've also learned that if someone wants something bad enough you can only do things that will deter them from stealing it. Make sure you insure whatever you have in case you have issues, you won't have to worry constantly if someone is doing something to your place while your 2-3 hrs away and only go up ocassionaly.
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Aragorn
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# Posted: 29 Jul 2012 20:40
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My understanding is that many towns don't allow even a storage shed with permit. Is it so?
While searching for land I've seen some sellers in NY specifically stating things like "campers are allowed!" or "No minimum size allowed", etc. But those that say "allowed" are usually far...
Another question is: are there other benefits of small cabin comparing to trailer or camper, besides esthetics and look? I like the look and comfort of a small cabin but if legal aspect is easier to go by with a mobile thing, then what are biggest disadvantages of a camper/trailer over a tiny cabin?
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PA_Bound
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# Posted: 30 Jul 2012 08:54
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Aragorn... before deciding to build a cabin I looked very closely at buying a 33' nearly-new camping trailer for my property instead. Camping trailers are quick way to begin enjoying your property and there is no doubt they can be very nice- even luxurious. I've not seen any cabin as effecient with the use of space as camping trailers and, for me, a trailer would have been cheaper than an equally appointed cabin. For a small fee, the dealer would have even delivered it to my site saving me the hassle of towing it around.
So why didn't I go that route? Two points:
1. I was concerned about the trailer over the long-term... and decided that a cabin may be easier to maintain.
2. A well kept cabin will increase in value, a well kept trailer will still lose value.
Of the two points number 1, the long-term maintenance concerns, is what drove the final decision. In the process of purchasing my land I looked at several properties that had old trailers. No offense to anyone on this forum, but it seemed to me that once a trailer gets old there doesn't seem to be much you can do to make it look good again. And the specialized building techniques and products used in construction sometimes make them difficult to repair and renovate. Although a trailer would likely be fine for the rest of my lifetime, my plan is to deed the property to my daughter at some point. I really don't want to deed her the problem of maintaining, or disposing of, an old trailer.
But if your looking for a quick and easy solution and are not concerned about 20, 30 or 40 years from now, I don't think you can beat the convenience and efficiency of a decent camping trailer.
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Seto
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# Posted: 30 Jul 2012 09:43
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your problem is NYC, being 3 hours from the city you are competing for land/camps with the upper class who want second home mcmansions as camps, if they might see your place as an eye sore they will complain and competition for lots will drive up the prices. they want thing uniform in size and construction so it looks like a housing development for economic reasons. if your within 3 hours of NYC the standards are high since the towns want to attract rich city folk to set up vacation homes, camps and a place to retire. once you go further away from any large population things get more lax, look arround farming areas, in NY state you can build a 10' by 10' shed without a permit, this is well used by lower income rural populations, who slap together such sheds for everything from maple sugar shacks to shelters for the livestock and hunting camps, in these communities no one thinks twice about a small building like that (I'm in the Adirondack region), if everyone had to get a permit and meet code it would greatly harm the local economy. you could also get a used camper, and put a second roof on top, or an amish style shed, or portable storage barn. these are considered portable and are not taxed as improvements (no foundation and can be moved to another lot).
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GomerPile
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# Posted: 30 Jul 2012 09:51 - Edited by: GomerPile
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Have you thought about Vermont? They seem to take a more liberal view about building permits. There *are* a couple places in NH that have no zoning and only require permits for a septic system.
You might also look into the tiny houses on a trailer from tumbleweed. If its under 120 square feet and on wheels there is not much a code enforcement official can do to you.
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Aragorn
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# Posted: 30 Jul 2012 22:05 - Edited by: Aragorn
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Well, an inquiry on one nice property returned: "Deed restrictions include no mobile homes, junk, or shacks. Seasonal camping is allowed". What do they call shacks? Do the mean storage shed actually? Does anybody know?
Yeah, I don't mind having a trailer or tiny house on a trailer from tumbleweed, instead of a small cabin. But I got to make sure it's permitted before buying that land...
Seto, Yeah, I know Adirondacks is great and I think storage sheds are unofficially or officially allowed there. But it's too damn far from the city . I agree with you on uniform structures close to NYC etc.. that's the problem. Still hoping to find something..
GomerPile, Vermont is too far.... but thanks.
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VTweekender
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# Posted: 31 Jul 2012 02:04 - Edited by: VTweekender
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Quoting: Aragorn Well, an inquiry on one nice property returned: "Deed restrictions include no mobile homes, junk, or shacks. Seasonal camping is allowed". What do they call shacks? Do the mean storage shed actually? Does anybody know?
The Mobile Home would be a fixed year around living space on wheels with septic and electric, not an RV (self contained trailer-camper).
The Shack could have a wide range of interpretation, probably why they have that in there just that way, so anything being built would have to be to the towns liking and declaration of use. A storage shed most likely allowed, but camping out in it could leave you open to "interpretation" ..but this doesn't mean that cabins aren't allowed, you have to call the town..
Seasonal Camping would mean on a part time basis , RV camping trailer or pitching a tent etc...is allowed.
Sounds like a deed restriction that would be in an "Association" subdivision, you don't want anything to do with a association parcel of land. Monthly road maintanance fees, they tell you what you can and can't do etc....nightmare.
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dvgchef
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# Posted: 1 Aug 2012 09:31
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I'm up in Albany County - 3 hours from NYC. Part of the reason I chose the property was transparency - the zoning rules are online!
http://www.rensselaerville.com/TownForms/Zoning%20Law.1991.pdf
Good luck!
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njoy
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# Posted: 16 Aug 2012 06:18
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Much as I love NYC, this thread makes me glad I live deep in the boonies in western Canada. We are about 30 miles from the nearest small town and NO permits are available let alone required. Gotta love those conservative cutbacks, eh?
We are currently rebuilding an old farmhouse from the foundation up. Luckily my husband has a fair bit of building experience so I'm not expecting it to fall down around my ears despite the lack of government interference in the process.
Btw, about half our neighbors are refugee Americans, fleeing the constraints of the lower 48. Must admit it's a tad cold here in the winter but they don't seem to be bothered.
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njoy
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# Posted: 16 Aug 2012 06:19
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P.S. My husband's family is from Schennectady and has been here since 1919.
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