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kanesta
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# Posted: 9 Jan 2014 10:30
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Hi,
So I think I have found land that I like. But.. the bank wants a design plan to approve the land + construction mortgage (less expense than getting the land then building through personal loans).
I called a professional construction company and they wanted $15k just to do the PLANS. It's crazy.
Most of the people in the area build themselves, but they have lots of knowledge that I don't. One offered to give me his plans but my idea is a little different and I really want to try to make my idea happen (maybe later if I give up I'll just take his). I've played a bit with Chief Architect (good tip I found here) but there is a bit of a learning curve and it's not something my bank will accept. A neighbour also suggested going to RONA for plans but the local RONA says they don't have any.
There must be a better way to compromise between total DIY and relying on expensive architects.
Any ideas for how to do this affordably? I'm in QC by the way.
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razmichael
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# Posted: 9 Jan 2014 11:15 - Edited by: razmichael
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I suspect that you can play with this a bit with respect to the bank. Pick up plans similar to what you want so you can use these with the bank to stage the construction (for funding) and then make your modifications as needed for the actual build. Key factor - are you building yourself or hiring a contractor? A good contractor should be able to work with you to modify your generic plans. Unless you plan on something really out of the ordinary, a good builder can figure out specific details and does not need super detailed architecture type diagrams. I remember designing my house about 14 years ago - I did up the plans in "smart draw". I worked with the builder to make modifications based on his experience and away they went. They did not need detailed plans to put in a window - it is standard stuff (you need to trust your builder so pick a good one).
I used Visio to draw up my cabin plans but then I was the only one who needed to actually use them.
Some cheaper plans at cabin plans and there are lots more sites - some with free plans.
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Rick004
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# Posted: 9 Jan 2014 12:41
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Check out Drummondhouseplans.com you can get 8 sets of blueprints for under 500$ ! And they have tons of designs and custom plans !
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 9 Jan 2014 13:36 - Edited by: MtnDon
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Be aware that many plans offered on the internet and even plans in books you can buy at home centers and lumber yards do not meet the requirements of the building code. The bank owns the land & building until you pay off the loan. They simply want to be sure that in the event of a default they stand a chance of recouping their money. Because they are on the hook you can't blame them for wanting to be sure the building is done in a code approved manner. They may insist on you using a licensed contractor. They may also do their own inspections at various times during the project. The banks I have been involved with on owner - builder projects here in NM have had their own inspections.
Many of the projects here and on other cabin oriented forums do not meet code. They could never have been built with a bank construction loan.
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kanesta
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# Posted: 9 Jan 2014 13:40
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@michael
I like the cabin plan site. I see it's based in North Carolina, do you think it would work to Quebec code? I wonder if it would be easy to get an engineer here to approve it?
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razmichael
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# Posted: 9 Jan 2014 13:52
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They state on their "about our blueprints" page that they meet or exceed "National Building Codes". I do not think there are any major differences in US and Canadian building codes but I really don't know for sure or the details. If, as MtnDon notes, the bank is looking very closely at them, they may not meet the requirement but very likely could be used as a starting point with an engineer/architect. I think a lot of this depends on what your plans are regarding building - are you hiring a contractor to do it? MtnDon is bang on that things can become far more complicated when going for a construction mortage.
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rockies
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# Posted: 9 Jan 2014 15:19
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You might have got the suggestion about "Chief Architect" from my threads. You can get pretty detailed drawings with that program, and you might be able to get an engineer to stamp them as being structurally sound and do any post/beam sizing requirements, etc. Ask the local building department if that is ok. Also, many city and regional governments have their own quirky building codes (depending on local climates, soil conditions, or just plain nutiness) so being approved for National Codes may not be enough for the place you'll live.
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kanesta
Member
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# Posted: 9 Jan 2014 16:41
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Not to hijack my own thread but.. In my plan I'm not sure about what layers my wall should have in the cold wet forest of Quebec (-goes to -30 on winter, rains a lot). I think if i chose closed cell foam the layers would be different compared with fibreglass..
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morock
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# Posted: 9 Jan 2014 20:18
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Becareful before you spend any money on plans, Each municipality has different requirements. My plans had to be stamped by an architect or building technologist and of course it costs for that. Maybe you can contact one an see they have some stock plans or something close that they could modify to your needs. Be prepared that everything will cost you. Site plan, septic plan, certificate of location, permits for all. Check out exactly what the municipality requires before you buy the land. I'm just fiinishing up a build in Valdesmonts.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 9 Jan 2014 22:01 - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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Kanesta, I bought mine from http://www.townandcountryplans.com I bought the Whitehorse. Look at theirs, see if anything fits your bill. You can use some whiteout too and make adjustments too. I bought 2 sets, one for me, one to submit to the county for review and approval. They are well engineered to work in just about any area, ie heavier snow loads etc. The price is only for the first set of plans, any duplicates are like $5-10 or something like that
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Shadyacres
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# Posted: 10 Jan 2014 05:55
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I got my plans from easycabindesigns.com and I had good luck with them. They were less than 50 bucks. I tweaked them a bit but my code services in PA had no problem with them. Good Luck.
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kanesta
Member
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# Posted: 10 Jan 2014 17:38
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The bank and the municipality both say it has to follow just general QC code. Neither requires it to be done by a certified engineer or architect. Do you think I could go with one of these nice American companies and then the builders will make necessary adaptations if need be? I tried to look at the national and Quebec codes but it's too long and hard to understand, I think you have to be an expert
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rockies
Member
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# Posted: 10 Jan 2014 17:51
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http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-001-the-perfect-wall/?searchter m=wall construction for cold climate
You can find a lot of info on construction and vapor barriers at the buildingscience website
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razmichael
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# Posted: 11 Jan 2014 10:54
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Quoting: kanesta Do you think I could go with one of these nice American companies and then the builders will make necessary adaptations if need be?
Any decent builder will be able to make changes and stick to code. It really is not difficult assuming you are doing standard stick building as this side of things has essentially been pre-approved by the code if done according to the tables. The problems come in when you decide to do something outside this norm. If you want to do a straw bale house this will required further engineering submissions. A truss company will build approved trusses based on your design - if you want to do a gambrel roof this will be more difficult as it would likely need to be approved by an engineer.
All this will vary by location and local rules but it does not sound like you have any specific problems in your area. As I mentioned earlier, in my home build a number of years ago I did up my own plans. These were not detailed - statements like "walls built using standard stick framing 2x6 16"OC" was more than enough. Inspections will then validate that the building is built properly. If anything is done differently the inspector will demand an engineer to approve it as it is not their job to approve things that are not covered by code.
For my cabin I built it to code and better after a lot of research. Based on my Visio plans submitted there was no problem getting a permit as they did not really care that much - I did it because I wanted to know it was safe and would last a long time. In my area the inspection process does not really exist. The one area that was not to code formally was the gambrel roof where I used a bunch of research to validate the design. In many areas this would normally need to be approved over and above the basic "to code" plans.
I'm assuming, based on your earlier posts, you are going to use a builder. What you really need to be looking at now is finding a good one that you trust and can work with. You asked earlier about how to build your walls. Great to do your own research on this and then discuss the cost benefit with the builder. He/She should be able to offer suggestions, give good advice and help you figure out the choice to make. There are a lot of newer approaches available (you mentioned spray foam insultion). Rain screen wall barriers are code in BC but not in Quebec but is somehting to consider. It is generally a trade-off as the cost goes up when you do these things and you need to decide how much it is really worth to you with a cabin and can you afford it. I love spray foam and used it in my rafters as I was doing an unvented system. I am using roxul in the walls however due to the high cost of the foam. I did the outside siding using a rain screen - it added a couple of days to the job and I'm not completely convinced it was worth it but now that it is done I'm still glad I did. On the other hand, buildings have been done without a rain screens for a long time so you need to decide if it is worth it.
Sorry for the long post - it takes me back to when I was designing my home. i had a great builder that would look at my plans and raise an eyebrow to say "really? have you considered this...". This is the experienced part you cannot get from pure research.
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turkeyhunter
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# Posted: 11 Jan 2014 11:12
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I drew mine either on a paper sack or was it a napkin???....and I was a Draftsman in my early years....and still have a drafting table in my home office....
it's not rocket science...
I would copy one of a book or the world wide web....and take it to the bank and tell him...."you are going to build it close to this" with a few changes...
or build as you go...and no bank involved ....or permits
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kanesta
Member
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# Posted: 11 Jan 2014 11:26
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Thank you guys for your advice, I think one of these Web sites may work out.
@Michael, very good points, thanks a lot for the ideas. I have a similar situation – the municipality doesn't seem to care so much but I want to do it right for peace of mind and durability. The bank is the biggie, they require it to QC code. I hope I can find a contractor that I can trust. The culture of the area is DIY and informal, but I want to use a contractor at least for the foundation and the basic structure. It'll be a learning experience.
Can I ask, what do you think of using multiple contractors for different parts? One guy for the septic, another for the foundation, etc. This seems to be what is happening but I'm not sure if it's going to create problems later when there's some discrepancy.
I also feel forced to make fast decisions about what kind of heating, vent placement and stuff, but that's another topic...
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razmichael
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# Posted: 12 Jan 2014 10:31
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You will need to decide how comfortable you are with acting as the prime contractor. I don't know how big and complex a cabin you are planning nor how much you want to do yourself. You look at how Owen (and others) on this site can put up a great simple cabin in days you can see how simple it can be for those with the experience. The more you add the longer it takes and the more complex it becomes. If you are the prime you need to be able to find the appropriate subs when you need them and be available to "manage" everything, all the time. You need to have the knowledge to make the decisions that will be needed. If you find a trustworthy prime that you can work with and come up with a good contract, they will schedule and arrange for the needed subs to come in and may have better contacts in the area to get the needed people in. However this will add some cost but makes your live much easier (unless you keep changing things on the fly during the build - every contractors worse nightmare). It is all a trade-off and you will need to decide, based partially on your building knowledge, time, complexity of the build and budget, what way to go. As many will tell you a simple cabin is not really that hard to build but experience can really help! There are some jobs I know I can figure out how to do but I also know it is better to pay someone who really knows how to do it (prime example in my book is spray foam insulation - looks easy when you see them do it on TV but reality is not really that simple).
For my cabin I found a local crew and brought them in to do the foundation. They had the contact with the backhoe driver and took care of all of it. My father-law and I then built the cabin but, as we had a late start due to permit issues, we started to run out of time before I needed to get back to work so I contacted the crew and they came in to help build and install the rafters basically on an hourly basis (became my crew so we had more than two people to do the work). I then ran out of time and had them quote me to complete the metal roof. I would have been fairly comfortable having them do much more of the cabin if I did not want to do it myself. Financially it did not really make sense to do it myself as I work contracts so the money saved building most of it myself was easily wasted compared to hiring the crew to do it while I continued to work. This is a constant trade-off I need to make but I consider it well worth it when I hope my kids can someday be telling their kids that the cabin was built by their grandfather and great grandfather.
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kanesta
Member
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# Posted: 13 Jan 2014 10:23
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An architect is offering me to do me full plans in less than two weeks at just over $2k, along with (he says) discounts on subcontractors near the land. Is this a good deal or just a gimmick?
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 13 Jan 2014 11:38
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I suspect there may be a kickback for the designer from the contractors, but they may also just offer a discount to get the work too. But construction work is one of the areas I would not go with the lowest bidder. (anyone ever watch Holmes on homes?) Not sure if the price is fair, but unless you want something "special" in the design, you can get them for under $100 easily.
You may have something in your minds eye that you are visualizing, a designer could lay it out. But could you take a generic plan and tweak it while keeping the basic structure the same?
What size footprint or square footage do you want. Single or 2 story, full second or a loft etc.
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kanesta
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# Posted: 13 Jan 2014 12:21
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It would be a one-story with a loft/mezzanine. None of the professional architects here seems to be charging less than 2-3k except for ready made plans. The US company is the only cheaper one but they are too overloaded right now to make the deadline I need for the financing, so so far this is looking like my least bad option. Lot of money though!
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razmichael
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# Posted: 13 Jan 2014 12:28
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what size footprint? Between the two links provided earlier there are lots of sub $100 plans available if you are not going too big. What are you looking for that would not fit one of these or be close enough to do a few hand modifications? Many (most) builds deal with minor changes during the actual construction. I suspect almost all contractors has cursed some architect with "how the heck does he expect me to build this". I really wonder if you are making this harder (and more costly) than it needs to be but, obviously, that is only unsubstantiated speculation.
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