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matt90
Member
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# Posted: 18 Jun 2013 14:55
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As we all know in Ontario, you don't need a permit to build an 'accessory' structure that is 108 sq. ft. That being said, the minimum square footage for a dwelling is be 800 sq. ft. (I'm not 100% sure on that number.)
Seeing as this is larger than what most tiny homes are, it would seem that we are out of options in Ontario except for building a something that is 108 sq. ft. I'm not even sure that technically allowed because it's supposed to be used for tool sheds and things like that. If they saw a bed, sink, toilet etc built into a tool shed, it would be pretty obvious that we're just trying to bend the law.
Anyway, here is my question. I know that an attached deck is considered part of the houses' footprint. Therefore, if we designed the tiny houses to have a deck that would add to and meet the required footprint for a single family dwelling, we could essentially build a house to our own specs and add a deck to comply with the OBC.
Any thoughts?
We'd still need to pay for development fees and permits but it will at least let us save on the costs of a full sized house build and it would make it legal. However, there is still the problem of the septic permit that is and must be issues along with the building permit for the house. I'm not too sure we could convince the inspectors of compostable toilets and no plumbing...
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Rossman
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# Posted: 18 Jun 2013 15:24
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You can't build the 108 sq.ft. structure unless there is already a residence on the land. Thats why it is called an accessory structure, it would be an accessory to an existing structure.
Obviously living in it comes with the problems you have outlined (ie, these are not permitted for human occupation.
Furthermore, it depends on your municipality with regards to the minimum size for residences. It's not 800 sq.ft. across the board. For my lot which is zoned RU (rural) there is no minimum. However 5 minutes away in what is considered the town, there is a minimum. So you might have some leeway here, check your local zoning and building regulations.
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Rossman
Member
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# Posted: 18 Jun 2013 15:25
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Oh also, to get a building permit in my municipality you need to already have a septic permit from the Health Dept. You can't get a building permit without one.
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Just
Member
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# Posted: 18 Jun 2013 15:28
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the sq. footage depends on the municipality some parts of some municipality's are still at 640 sq. feet .and no you can't include the deck in the total only enclosed space over 4 ft. high . best thing is to talk to your local building inspector . it does'nt say it all has to be finished inside. I have built both , a 24x24 with permit and a 108 without, no one will bother you about the 108 unless there is a complaint from a neighbour . what area are you in ??
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matt90
Member
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# Posted: 18 Jun 2013 17:01 - Edited by: matt90
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I understand you need a permit for an accessory building, but i assume it is only for structures over 108 sq. ft. All the building guides provided by the municipality that I have researched tell me that i don't need a permit for anything under 108. So I was i can simply say this is a structure that is 108 sq. ft. and it is not an accessory building.
I know it sounds a little stupid but it doesn't specifically state anywhere that I've read that you cannot build a structure that is 108sq. ft. unless there is already a primary dwelling. I have called my inspector and he was very vague and would not give me a straight answer but he said word for word "We do not issue permits for accessory buildings under 108 sq. ft." That basically means he won't waste his time making up a permit for something smaller than 108, but he never said I must have a primary building on the lot if i wanted to simply build something less and 108 sq. ft.
I even told him it would be used as a hunting cabin without power, or plumbing etc (which is exactly what I intended on using it for in the first place but then decided to make it a weekend get-away as well), but he still refused to say what I CAN and CANNOT do. I guess its a grey area from both sides of the bureaucracy. He just doesn't want to be on record for telling me to do something illegal.
Thanks for answering the question though. I didn't realize the "enclosed" area had to the be min size.
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Rossman
Member
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# Posted: 18 Jun 2013 17:21
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I've understood (possibly incorrectly) that buildings which are not the primary residence are accessory buildings. You can't just decide that it is or isn't an accessory building, it's either the primary residence or it is an accessory to that.
Otherwise no-one would call them accessory buildings and not get permits and go around the system, which doesn't make sense.
Do you have your municipalities zoning documents? They will say what use each zoned area can be used for and what the requirements are. I know there are lesser requirements for a "hunt camp" in my municipality but I was never able to determine what exactly comprised a hunt camp and that wouldn't really work for me anyway.
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Rossman
Member
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# Posted: 18 Jun 2013 17:25
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This is the legal definition of an accessory building:
BUILDING, ACCESSORY: Means a subordinate detached building or structure designed or intended for the better or more convenient enjoyment of the main building, to which it is accessory and which is located on the same lot therewith. An accessory building shall be uninhabitable unless otherwise specifically
permitted.
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matt90
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# Posted: 18 Jun 2013 17:31
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Thanks for your replies, I really do appreciate it. I'm not too sure how to go about getting the zoning documents. Can you lead me in the right direction?
I still think that the legal definition specifically mentions it is for the enjoyment of the primary building. I don't have and will never have a primary building, so what could my structure be classified as? And what's the point of making a law that restricts building anything below 108 if you cannot do it without a primary building anyway? I feel like there would need to be a blanket statement saying "no construction of any building shall occur unless a primary dwelling is first constructed."
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leonk
Member
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# Posted: 18 Jun 2013 19:17
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You don't say where you are...
In ON some people are in unorganized townships - one can pretty much do anything there...
Call your municipality (if you have one) and talk to the building inspector/dept. You can do it anonymously if you prefer to fly low 
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Just
Member
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# Posted: 18 Jun 2013 19:17
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built on the shore of lake Huron in 2000 8 x 13, 4 , 2 bedrooms up with standing room to change ,pull out couch down 48 in. IKEA kitchen with double sink ,bar fridge ,microwave , 48 in uppers . 40 x 22 in washroom full stair no ladder . sleeps 6. built on two skids in case someone made me move it' they never did ..I no longer own it wish I did .good luck
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Rossman
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# Posted: 18 Jun 2013 20:55
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matt90, I just found the website for my town and they have all the documents posted in PDF format including zoning maps etc.
If your town does not do this you would prob have to go to the town office and ask for a copy, I'm not really sure actually.
Good luck!
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Ontario lakeside
Member
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# Posted: 18 Jun 2013 22:15
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Hey
We are in the process of getting our permit in Ont. we are zoned Limited Service Residential because we are water access only. That means 528 Square foot Minimum. Accessory buildings are not technically allowed without a permitted main building. But in reality they are almost always ignored unless you offend your neighbours.
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matt90
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# Posted: 18 Jun 2013 23:58 - Edited by: matt90
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What you just said has made my day. I'm 95% sure my lot is zoned as water access only so that might increase the min footage.
Here is the website for my township http://www.townshipofsevern.com/
I found the zoning... its zoned as "SR3" AND i found this in the by-law.
3.2.13 Sleeping Cabin: A sleeping cabin may be erected on a lot within the SR2 and
SR3 Zones, subject to the following provisions:
a) such sleeping cabin complies with the minimum yard requirements for the principal use within the Zone;
b) such sleeping cabin does not exceed a maximum gross floor area of 28.0 square metres;
c) such sleeping cabin does not include kitchen or cooking facilities; and,
d) a maximum of one sleeping cabin is permitted per lot.
Beautiful. I guess it will take a quick call to confirm and off i go. 28 sq meters....nice.
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Rossman
Member
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# Posted: 19 Jun 2013 09:18
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Nice matt90 - good luck!!
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creeky
Member
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# Posted: 19 Jun 2013 11:10
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wow. 300 sq ft (for us old timers). that's pretty big.
In my area of Ontario I have been in to the zoning office 3 times and they keep telling me: build what you need and we'll permit it when you build your house.
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ObviouslyCake
Member
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# Posted: 9 Feb 2014 10:46
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matt90
I know I am quite late to arrive here, but I also live in Severn Township and I am looking into building something along the same lines as you. Were you able to build, and if so what kinds of problems did you face / how did you get around them (legally!).
Also, where did you find your zoning info? I'm trying to research online before I give them a call at all.
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 10 Feb 2014 09:55
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http://www.townshipofsevern.com/municipal-services/planning-and-development/building- department/
http://www.townshipofsevern.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Building-Permit-Guide.pdf
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matt90
Member
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# Posted: 10 Feb 2014 11:20 - Edited by: matt90
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Thanks MtnDon for the reply. I was about to post this.
As you can read from the first link, it states that you need a permit for building anything over 107sq ft. I ended up building an 8x12 sleeping cabin which ends up being just under.
I've also got the zoning by-law here:
http://www.townshipofsevern.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/scheduleB1.pdf
MAKE SURE you check what zoning your lot falls under. I was lucky and my lot is considered SR3 which means it is water access and I am actually allowed to build a sleeping cabin larger than 8x12 (excluding cooking facilities), but just to be safe I opted to keep it under regulation.
Some people have also told me I need a primary structure in order to build any 'accessory' building, however I was unable to find that stipulation anywhere in the by-law document or permit overview document. I assume they were talking about a legitimate accessory building such as a detached garage over 107sq ft. If someone can find where it does state that you require a primary structure, please inform us!
I have also called the township and they told me that they do not issue permits for structures under 107sq ft. I asked if was allowed to build something under that size without a primary structure and they repeated the line. I think they just didn't want to be on record for telling people they are allowed to build 'sheds' without permits because if everyone exploited that loophole, we'd end up with a mess of shanty buildings and people avoiding taxes. On the other hand, they don't want to regulate tiny builds such as a shed because it's too much work for one a couple building inspectors and so they just leave it open to interpretation.
Hope this helps,
Cheers
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 10 Feb 2014 18:33
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Here in NM, USA if a regulation states you may have so many accessory buildings the inclusion of the term "accessory" is taken to mean accessory to a primary building. Some places do spell it out and others do not. Before going ahead and building with how you interpret the laws it would be advisable to check on how the local officials who call the shots interpret "accessory". I know of a couple projects here in NM and a couple in other states that fell afoul of permits and interpretations and were stopped. Two I know have been torn down because they did not meet the applicable laws and could not be made to do so.
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bushbunkie
Member
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# Posted: 15 Feb 2014 21:46
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Hi Matt,
Just be careful. I had property around Balsam Lake, Lindsay and now I'm on the Bruce Peninsula. Both Inspectors in the areas said the same thing..."you cannot build a 100 sq. Ft shed / Bunkie unless there is already a structure on the property for living that meets code (home , cottage). A shed is an accessory building.
In fact the Bruce pennisula is going through sweeping changes which will resonate through the rest of the province...seeming to have the most affect on those near wetlands and with Lake front lots.
Here is a direct quote off one reale estate salepersons site:
"Many people looking to purchase vacant land ask if they can park their trailer or RV and camp on their property once they purchase it. I have the dubious responsibility to inform everyone purchasing vacant property that you cannot occupy a trailer, bunky or even camp on your vacant property.
This is a Municipal and Peninsula wide by-law...including both Northern Bruce Peninsula and South Bruce Peninsula (Wiarton area). I do not make the rules, I am only the messenger!"
If you put up a shed that you can sleep in, then the Health Unit wants to know how you will dispose of your human waste, since Outhouses are not permitted. So it's not only Bi-law you have to watch, it's the Health Unit as well. They even started doing fly overs in the summer to check for non-permitted developments.
Things have gotten a little crazy and over-regulated.
If you want to fly under the radar... if you have any neighbours, meet them and make good friends...Don't ever give them a reason to complain. Good Luck on your adventure!
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old243
Member
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# Posted: 15 Feb 2014 22:48
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In our township, I see a vacant farm . There are about 6 , small sheds, I would expect just under the maximum allowable. They are spaced out 40 -50 feet apart. It is obviously a weekend get away ,for a family or group , I would guess at least one has cooking facilities. They are quite neat, the grass is cut, a couple of picnic tables. Not sure what the rules are, but they must comply, or treat the neighbors right. They are right on the side of a busy highway. Have been there a while, so maybe grandfathered. More power to them. Old243
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silverwaterlady
Member
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# Posted: 16 Feb 2014 00:16 - Edited by: silverwaterlady
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Never mind I'm tired of repeating myself about the rules in unorginized townships. Do whatever you want.
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Wilbour
Member
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# Posted: 20 May 2014 11:07
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Sorry to beat a dead horse but why would my municipality go into great detail with regards to accessory buildings then have this listed:
3.1.10 Utility Sheds
Notwithstandign any other provision of this By-law to the contrary, a utility shed may be erected within a required interior side or rear yard provide that such accessory building is not closer than 1.2 meters to the interior side or rear lot line. For the purposees of this By-law such a utility shed shall be maintained and used for the purposes of storing lawn and garden equipment or similar household related appurtenances and shall not have a total floor area in excess of 11.3 square meters.
Honestly this is all I need.
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matt90
Member
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# Posted: 20 May 2014 11:09
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An accessory building requires a primary building, ie: a house.
Otherwise, you aren't technically allowed to have an accessory building.
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Wilbour
Member
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# Posted: 20 May 2014 11:45
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3.1.1 Permitted Uses
Accessory buildings, structures and uses shall only be permitted once the principal use has been established.
One can read this as having a dwelling already established while another reads this as "principal use" being what ever the intended use of the land. So if you wish to use Agricultural Zone land as a small garden then that is the principal use and you build a utility shed to house your garden supplies
Or am I simplifying this too much?
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matt90
Member
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# Posted: 20 May 2014 17:02
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I guess it depends on the zoning. If you're zoned as residential, i bet the principal use would need to be a place or residence. If you're zoned as a farm, you're probably allowed to say the silo is the principal building.
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Wilbour
Member
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# Posted: 20 May 2014 21:22
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Quoting: matt90 If you're zoned as a farm, you're probably allowed to say the silo is the principal building
Here's the thing, nothing in the bylaw states primary building, only principal use
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zelig
Member
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# Posted: 7 Jun 2014 14:24
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If you read the definitions in the OBC act, you'll find that anything under 108 sq ft is not a 'building' and therefore can't be considered an 'accessory building'. I think people are being allowed or encouraged to not understand this, but I haven't seen any case law where this has been contested in court.
So if a 'building permit' is required for any 'building', then perhaps something that isn't a 'building' is none of their bloody business? Also, if you pick apart the definitions further you'll find that it is possible to construct an earth-bermed/underground home of any size you want that stays under the 108sq ft size. Mind you, they won't allow any plumbing inside there, but I'm looking for ways around that little snag.
If you want to really get into the legalities, then consider that the OBC, municipal bylaws, etc only apply to 'persons'. There is a huge difference between men and women vs 'persons'.
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westotters
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# Posted: 1 Dec 2014 18:33
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Quoting: zelig If you read the definitions in the OBC act, you'll find that anything under 108 sq ft is not a 'building' and therefore can't be considered an 'accessory building'. I think people are being allowed or encouraged to not understand this, but I haven't seen any case law where this has been contested in court.
Zelig its been some months since your post but- the OBC states this:
"building" means,
(a) a structure occupying an area greater than ten square metres consisting of a wall, roof and floor or any of them or a structural system serving the function thereof including all plumbing, works, fixtures and service systems appurtenant thereto,
(b) a structure occupying an area of ten square metres or less that contains plumbing, including the plumbing appurtenant thereto,
(c) plumbing not located in a structure,
(c.1) a sewage system, or
(d) structures designated in the building code
by this definition then- you cannot have anything in the Bunkie. which means no matter what, you need permits. thus if they DONT give you a permit- they are themselves breaking the law. so also by this definition, anything that is a structure under or over 10 m2 is classified as a building. by this you would need to then get building permits for anything that has a sink, pipes etc, hence your Volkswagen camper would need a building permit, and so would your washer, your sprinkler, your fridge, etc. I'm not sure why people can say that a building under 108 sq. ft. is not required to get a permit- the oppressors have seen to it that we have no freedoms with our properties!!!
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zelig
Member
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# Posted: 2 Dec 2014 06:47 - Edited by: zelig
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Quoting: westotters the oppressors have seen to it that we have no freedoms with our properties!!!
I agree with you there and would add that more and more freedoms are being taken away daily. But there is an alternative that few would consider. As weird as it may sound, all of these rules and regulations are voluntary in that they only apply to 'persons'. You are a man or woman, your 'NAME' is a registered corporation and you were tricked into thinking that you were the 'NAME'. Whenever you use your birth certificate, social insurance number, credit card, driver's license, etc, etc you are pretending to be the 'NAME'/corporation and this makes you a person/persona. Wrap your head around that concept and everything begins to make sense and probably make you angry. The only laws that apply to men and women are common laws and can be simplified to 'do no harm'. Men and women can craft their own homes as they see fit, assuming they harm no others in the process. The challenge comes when the building inspector shows up and has no clue what you're talking about when you mention 'personhood'. The school system helped all of us brainwash each other very effectively.
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