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IcutMetl
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# Posted: 4 Feb 2024 16:21
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Hello, everyone. I’m in the process of purchasing an off grid cabin on 10 acres and have been working with the listing realtor. The offer was accepted, I sent a down payment, all is/was good. We had to push back the closing date twice while the owners got their deed/legal situation sorted out (5 owners, two had passed), and while details of an easement was confirmed (the “driveway†crosses paper company land and has for 30+ years). It sounds like all of that is squared away, but the title company underwriter won’t sign off on the proof of easement. Now, the realtor is suggesting we utilize a Quit Claim Deed.
I have a basic understanding of what a Quit Claim is all about, but don’t have a handle of what it could mean for me in the future considering the unknowns (property one state away, dealing with unknown parties, etc).
I’m fairly confident there are no liens involved and the easement is legitimate. There will not be a mortgage involved. However, am I wrong to be still cautious in this situation? What is the potential for future BS? How could/will this affect me in the future if I decide to sell? I have asked my realtor to consult a different title agency. While I appreciate the time she’s spent so far, and while we’re not talking about a million dollar property here, I can’t help but think these are situations that should have been addressed when the property was first listed.
Thoughts?
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 4 Feb 2024 16:41
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Here, a realtor has to check for and disclose and liens, etc. and the title company also insures all is well or they are liable.
A QCD is a simple document, and if they say you need it, you do. Once done it becomes part of YOUR documentation.
Just do it.
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IcutMetl
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# Posted: 4 Feb 2024 18:05
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Quoting: gcrank1 Here, a realtor has to check for and disclose and liens, etc. and the title company also insures all is well or they are liable. A QCD is a simple document, and if they say you need it, you do. Once done it becomes part of YOUR documentation. Just do it.
Thanks for your input; I appreciate it. Say I go thru with the Quit Claim, and “x†number of years I decide to sell. Will any potential future buyer be able to get a warranty deed at that point, then?
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ICC
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# Posted: 4 Feb 2024 18:50 - Edited by: ICC
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First of all asking for legal advice on a forum is not a best approach. Property title laws can and do vary a bit state to state. For example, I believe it is correct to say that in TX it is virtually impossible to obtain a warranty deed after a quit claim deed is used on a real estate transaction. Not a 100% sure but I sure would check on the actual legal facts. The TX title companies just won't write the paper. Sirta don't blame them.
I would tell the seller and the agent that they should ask at least one other title company about obtaining a warranty deed. A quit claim is only good for the person who signs it, nobody else. You get no guarantee of ever being able to obtain a warranty deed.
The fact that the driveway crosses property owned by some corporation gives me great concern. Just knowing the easement is not guaranteed would make me walk away unless the seller can provide a warranty deed.
It sounds to me, that the real estate agent is suggesting a quit claim to salvage the sale because proper investigation into the title situation was not done pre-sale.
If there is no warranty deed you could have a big surprise someday in the future.
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 4 Feb 2024 19:33
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Yes, the laws vary!
Pretty sure the QCD here means the owner is 'quiting' their claim and assigning it to you. It becomes part of your property.
An 'easement' here is not permanent, the owner of record is granting permission for use but maintaining ownership.
At least that is how I understand it 'here'.
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IcutMetl
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# Posted: 4 Feb 2024 19:37
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Quoting: ICC First of all asking for legal advice on a forum is not a best approach. Property title laws can and do vary a bit state to state. For example, I believe it is correct to say that in TX it is virtually impossible to obtain a warranty deed after a quit claim deed is used on a real estate transaction. Not a 100% sure but I sure would check on the actual legal facts. The TX title companies just won't write the paper. Sirta don't blame them. I would tell the seller and the agent that they should ask at least one other title company about obtaining a warranty deed. A quit claim is only good for the person who signs it, nobody else. You get no guarantee of ever being able to obtain a warranty deed. The fact that the driveway crosses property owned by some corporation gives me great concern. Just knowing the easement is not guaranteed would make me walk away unless the seller can provide a warranty deed. It sounds to me, that the real estate agent is suggesting a quit claim to salvage the sale because proper investigation into the title situation was not done pre-sale. If there is no warranty deed you could have a big surprise someday in the future.
I agree with everything you said and the concerns you mentioned are the same ones I’ve got.
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 4 Feb 2024 20:22 - Edited by: ICC
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Quoting: gcrank1 An 'easement' here is not permanent, the owner of record is granting permission for use but maintaining ownership.
Well, again laws vary.
In the NM where we have properties an easement is recorded with the county assessor office. It is a permanent conditional use until it might be legally revoked. Now, that said, it can still be a source of distress,
For example, I have seen some road easements that state the road maintenance costs will be shared by both parties. That can become an issue if one party becomes unwilling to cover their responsibility. On the other hand, we have given an easement to Verizon for a cell tower road and they have been a very good corporate partner.
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spencerin
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# Posted: 4 Feb 2024 21:09
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*Why* won't the title company underwriter sign off on the proof of the easement? There must be a legit concern on his/her behalf to hold it all up now.
Don't do a QCD. It's a liability to you. And, I don't see how a title insurance company would go along with that as it would be more of a liability to them, too. In fact, they might decline to insure the title at all if the sale is done with a QCD.
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909
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# Posted: 4 Feb 2024 21:12 - Edited by: 909
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I also bought my plot of raw land this year , and my main criteria was year round access. I noticed most of the really good deals had access issues.
I'd talk to a real estate lawyer . You can't always trust agents, and sometimes they just don't know.
I'd also keep looking as a backup. Completely avoid headaches if you can.
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DaveBell
Moderator
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# Posted: 4 Feb 2024 21:57 - Edited by: DaveBell
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Quoting: 909 You can't always trust agents
I would NEVER trust a Real Estate agent. I group them in with used car salesmen.
Quoting: 909 I'd talk to a real estate lawyer
Yes, they are the only one who will look out for your best interest.
I used a quit claim deed to transfer 50% ownership of a property to a person. I just copied an example off the internet. But, that was a very simple transaction, not as in your case.
Get a lawyer.
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IcutMetl
Member
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2024 06:10
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Quoting: spencerin *Why* won't the title company underwriter sign off on the proof of the easement? There must be a legit concern on his/her behalf to hold it all up now. Don't do a QCD. It's a liability to you. And, I don't see how a title insurance company would go along with that as it would be more of a liability to them, too. In fact, they might decline to insure the title at all if the sale is done with a QCD.
Thanks for everyone's replies...you're all more or less putting me at ease as I have the same thought process as most of you seem to.
The easement was never mentioned in the listing and I didn't find out about it until I had to sign the first addendum to push the closing date back...I think due to the realtor not having enough info for the title agency or the prior owner(s) not having their stuff stacked straight. The first time I spoke with the realtor on the phone when I put in my offer, she asked me if I preferred to do a Quit Claim or Warranty Deed, but she didn't explain why. At the time, I didn't know what it was (I've bought three houses and it never came up....) and elected at the time to proceed with a standard Warranty Deed.
Someone mentioned above that 4-season access was important to them...and I agree, it is to me too but I'm working with a lower budget and that is one feature that can adversely affect the price range I can play in. I'd rather not have an easement, but if it's a must, then my thought is that I want to minimize risk of BS in the future.
Referring to the quoted post, I'm not so sure the title company is the one suggesting the QCD so much as the realtor. I'm not sure why the title company won't accept the realtor's proof of easement. My thought is that she was not able to get the proper documentation from the paper company and tried submitting a plot map or something showing where the easement was along with history of the easement...and that's when they put the brakes on.
The property I'm looking at is in the UP of Michigan and in a great overall location and I'll be bummed if I have to pull the plug...because the market is thinning out and only getting more expensive, but I can't help but think that the future risk may be too great.
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jsahara24
Member
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2024 08:59
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Sounds to me like if you are willing to take the risk of the quit claim deed, the price should reflect that risk.
IF you are willing to risk it, then perhaps a new offer is appropriate.
Good luck!
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2024 09:27
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I think now with tossing this around here you will get appropriate specific answers from the realtor, title company, etc with these questions/concerns.
Sounds like maybe some phone time 
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Brettny
Member
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2024 09:43
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You need a real estate lawyer from that area. I wouldnt buy any piece of property with out one.
Also if the issue is the acess to the property isnt in a legal easement than this just wasn't the correct property to begin with..you just invested to much time and emotion into it before you found out.
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pabear89
Member
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2024 10:30
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NEVER buy property without a easement or right of way recorded to access it!
There is 24 parcel owners here that failed to get that information before buying.
Now if they piss off the property owner that they cross to get to their plot there is NO way to get to it.
Its only one path in and out to the right of way off the highway.
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IcutMetl
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2024 12:09 - Edited by: IcutMetl
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Quoting: pabear89 NEVER buy property without a easement or right of way recorded to access it! There is 24 parcel owners here that failed to get that information before buying. Now if they piss off the property owner that they cross to get to their plot there is NO way to get to it. Its only one path in and out to the right of way off the highway.
This is kind of where my head is at too. From what I can gather, the access easement has been in use for 30+ years, which I’m being told is enough to satisfy some sort of “squatters right†sort of requirement, but the only “proof†the realtor has been able to present is a plot map showing where the established easements are…not any actual documents from the company granting it, which I’m guessing is why the underwriter is pushing back. I’m thinking it’s in my best interests to get as much legitimate documentation as possible to prevent a scenario like the one you described. I currently have her consulting a different title company.
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pabear89
Member
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2024 16:57
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Plot map is lines on paper which shows property lines.
Without the proper documents to provide the right of way it means nothing, doesn't mean a darn thing how long it's been used.
I know for a fact cause I'm the owner of the pathway others use and the judge has already explained it to the group who said they have rights to use it.
That is why title company will not cover it.
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IcutMetl
Member
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2024 17:13
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Quoting: pabear89 Plot map is lines on paper which shows property lines. Without the proper documents to provide the right of way it means nothing, doesn't mean a darn thing how long it's been used. I know for a fact cause I'm the owner of the pathway others use and the judge has already explained it to the group who said they have rights to use it. That is why title company will not cover it.
Thank you for your input- I really do appreciate it.
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Popeye
Member
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# Posted: 6 Feb 2024 10:05
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You would have a prescriptive easement. I agree with others, talk to a lawyer.
https://www.northernmichiganpropertylaw.com/blog/2018/1/8/prescriptive-easements
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spencerin
Member
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# Posted: 18 Feb 2024 15:05
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IcutMetl, did you get it all worked out?
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IcutMetl
Member
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# Posted: 18 Feb 2024 16:13
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Quoting: spencerin IcutMetl, did you get it all worked out?
Thanks for checking. Not 100% yet but making progress. I pushed back on the realtor a bit and it sounds like she’s working with a different title agency as well as having to get additional crap sorted out with the widows of two of the five owners (which happen to be deceased). I’m sure there’s a lot that I’m unaware of behind the scenes, but I keep having the feeling that a lot of the roadblocks I’m dealing with should have been dealt with before the property was listed for sale.
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 18 Feb 2024 17:27
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Hang in there if you really like the property!
Both our house (of now 35+ years) and cabin 9+ac were 'estate' deals that had 'complications' and hoops to jump thru. It all pulled together both times in the end.
And we learned more every time about how it should work and what to watch out for.
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IcutMetl
Member
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# Posted: 27 Mar 2024 07:07 - Edited by: IcutMetl
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Ok, everyone- I’ve got an update. I closed on the cabin 3/25 and was able to get a warranty deed with documentation of the easement involved! I’m glad I stuck with my gut and was patient. I was able to get back to the cabin afterwards but didn’t really stick around long before getting back to where I was staying. I’ve got a trip planned a couple weeks out to head back up to take stuff up, burn some trash, and build a new outhouse. I’ve attached a couple pictures- the one with my truck in the foreground is from my visit after the closing and the one with my snowmobile was back in February when I was on a riding trip.
Thanks for everyone’s input- I appreciate the feedback.
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FishHog
Member
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# Posted: 27 Mar 2024 07:43
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congratulations, glad it worked out for you and place looks nice. Keep us posted on your progress.
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jsahara24
Member
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# Posted: 27 Mar 2024 08:14
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Congrats!! Looks like a nice setup
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spencerin
Member
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# Posted: 31 Mar 2024 22:34
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Congrats!
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