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optimistic
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# Posted: 2 May 2012 16:12
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I think that a cabin might be too expensive for me at this stage of my life. My current plan has ballooned from a 10-15k budget to now looking at over 40k for land, road, stamped plans, and cabin build - not completely finished... I cannot afford this.
I thought that maybe I should just buy the land and build myself one of those - no need for permit - sheds with a loft bed but in NY you can only build up to 144sqft and if you read the law carefully - you see that it is meant only for storing tools. Yes, I can risk it, but I feel like if I am spending so much money on my dream land - I should have something legitimate on it. But that is simply too expensive and hard to achieve.
I will make one last attempt at this. I intend to ask the inspector to give me guidelines as to what I can build that won't require me to reach too deep into my pocket. A structure that he will allow me to build by myself according to his guidelines without too much headache so later on I can build a real cabin when I have the cash for it. To be honest, I doubt that he will offer any help with this. Why should he?
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Rifraf
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# Posted: 2 May 2012 16:18 - Edited by: Rifraf
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Optimistic,
Have you considered building your cabin on a trailer like the tumbleweed tiny house thing. Then you dont have to worry about ever tearing it down or being fined as a permanent residence.. it can be hooked up to a truck and hauled .
If im not mistaken i think they can be classified as an RV so normal building codes wont apply.. perhaps you could look into that option,
if you did that, you could build it first (if you had a small area to work on it) then get your land
Why should he? well, some people although its more and more rare, still have empathy for their fellow man. It doesnt hurt to find out.
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boltpost
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# Posted: 2 May 2012 16:27
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Optimistic,
Don't give up! I would suggest working in stages. Purchase the land first. You might be able to work the land, clearing it in stages too. Creating a site that your future cabin would fit on. And enjoy the section of land you have bought.
I think Rifraf has an excellent idea. You should look into homes on trailers. These can be built in a driveway and taken to the site. Tinyhomes and tumbleweed are just a few of the examples I have seen. There is a tiny home "for sale" webpage out there too. Please...don't give up!
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VTweekender
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# Posted: 2 May 2012 17:08
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Opti, perhaps it would be easier for you to buy something already in place in NY where you want to be...Christmas & Assoc..do some nice cabins and sell them on/with the land...offer financing as well with like 20% down...check out their "Cozy Cabin" they build and sitting on 5 acres in upstate NY for $19,995...the Cozy is 12 x 16..really cool cabin... listed as listing number 14.
http://www.landandcamps.com/ny-land-for-sale/ny-land-bargains
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naturelover66
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# Posted: 2 May 2012 17:49
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Lifes short......dont give up.
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optimistic
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# Posted: 2 May 2012 18:09
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Thanks for all the kind words ppl. I really appreciate it.
Boltpost..... I am absolutely dumbfounded by this 'tiny house on wheels' concept. It is not only beautiful but also seems to be an incredible idea of how to make your life less "red tapped".
Let me see if I get this straight though: If I build/buy one of those tiny houses on wheels and then I park them on my land then there is nothing they can do about it? (in terms of code, regulations, parking rules, and so on..)
This could really be what I have been looking for.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 2 May 2012 18:38
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Quoting: optimistic Thanks for all the kind words ppl. I really appreciate it. Boltpost..... I am absolutely dumbfounded by this 'tiny house on wheels' concept. It is not only beautiful but also seems to be an incredible idea of how to make your life less "red tapped". Let me see if I get this straight though: If I build/buy one of those tiny houses on wheels and then I park them on my land then there is nothing they can do about it? (in terms of code, regulations, parking rules, and so on..) This could really be what I have been looking for.
That is correct. There is even bigger ones, look up "park models", many places sell them. Its considered and RV, no taxes, no code enforcement officer badgering you etc.
Look on craiglist for used ones, too, co worker bought a nice one for 17K, had to have it hauled.
http://www.athensparkhomes.com/
http://www.northwestparkmodels.com/
http://parkcabins.com/
Just use any search engine, type in "Park Model"
Here is one for sale on craiglist.
http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/rvs/2979671005.html
http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/for/2991791665.html
http://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/rvs/2983421590.html
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optimistic
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# Posted: 2 May 2012 19:03
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Great stuff Toyota!
So really!@?!?!?! I don't even need to ask the building inspector anything?
As long as it is on wheels? But I am allowed to support it so it can stand by itself?
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dk1393
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# Posted: 2 May 2012 19:19
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I'm in oswego county, ny. The building inspector I dealt with was great. I don't think he would have had any problems answering questions.
Just be careful on properties. Some have covenants attached that limit trailers.
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optimistic
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# Posted: 2 May 2012 19:24
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How do I find out if I can have this on my land?
If you think I should ask the building inspector - then how?
If I will use language such as - RV, mobile home, and so on - I basically set my self up for a "NO".
Any help?
BTW - It's in Orange county, NY.
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dk1393
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# Posted: 2 May 2012 20:24
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Covenants are normally attached with the deed. The town may have info on zoning as far as RV's are concerned. Up in Redfield they have been talking about RV's staying on property premenantly. They are looking at zoning changes to discourage it. But they are also talking about grandfathering any old camps. We shall see what they decide if they ever do.
How are your nieghbors? They may not complain at all.
Orange county has some nice areas. I work in Newburgh
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 2 May 2012 21:30 - Edited by: MtnDon
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If you go the 'on wheels' route the bldg inspector has nothing to do with it. He only deals with things fastened to the ground. However, as mentioned the focus then shifts to zoning regulations and any possible covenants that come along with the property. Sanitation rules (septic for example, will still likely be a factor. It is not uncommon to find stay limits on things with wheels. That could be expressed as so many consecutive days or so many days per year, or something different. That sort of thing will be more likely the closer to a town or if a part of a development. Ask at the local government level. There is no "normal" or "usual".
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optimistic
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# Posted: 2 May 2012 21:50
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Thanks Don.
I do think that the on wheels route is the right one for me. I know that outhouses are allowed but I will have a compost toilet. And as for the 'greywater' thing - I will ask him what I kind do in terms of a leeching pit and if it will be some crazy requirement - I will have to figure something out.
When you say "stay limits" you mean for myself or for the cabin itself?
How should I call this when I ask them about it? cabin on wheels? trailer cabin?
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 2 May 2012 22:50
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If it's on wheels I'd forget the word cabin ever existed and call it a trailer. Wheels plus a hitch make it a trailer and as such will need tail lights, clearance lights maybe, perhaps even brakes depending on the MVD rules in your state. Close one onerous box of regulations and you open another. 
"stay limit" ... by that I mean there may be a zoning regulation or covenant that limits the length of time the trailer, RV, whatever may be parked on the property, or how many days it may be occupied. If days parked, that could be an issue. if days occupied, well who's counting? Hopefully the zoning is not so restrictive.
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TomChum
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# Posted: 2 May 2012 22:54
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Quoting: optimistic How should I call this when I ask them about it? cabin on wheels? trailer cabin?
Don't spend another moment on this, and don't call them anymore.
You know that the rules don't apply to an RV. If someone tells you that it's been on your land for too many consecutive days, then move it off for awhile. It's all doable. Its time to start living.
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 2 May 2012 23:16
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Would a trailer like this have to be titled and tagged, like a typical trailer? Maybe if only to move it to the site across the roads?
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 2 May 2012 23:28 - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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Quoting: optimistic Great stuff Toyota! So really!@?!?!?! I don't even need to ask the building inspector anything? As long as it is on wheels? But I am allowed to support it so it can stand by itself?
You can put in an RV site/stall. This can be a nice flat concrete slab, a septic system, plus your RV power hookup and water. You can block it and skirt it, not attached to the ground also. Or leave the wheels on it, block and skirt it. You can also "pit set" it too to give it a lower profile.
When asking about the RV hookup, just say its for a camp trailer. Technically, its classified as a trailer (RV) not a mobile home, as long as its under the "square footage" and that can vary a smidgen from area to area. Usually, 400 max, some areas, 450. No taxes on it etc.
Hope this avenue works out for you. I know from reading in this forum, NY seems to be the most spendy place to have property and a cabin when it comes to fees and taxes. Dont feel guilty, its all legal.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 2 May 2012 23:33
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If it was being towed down the road and it did not have a plate/tag on it a curious/alert cop could pull you over. He'd want to see the registration. You can't get a registration w/o a title. And you can't get those if it doesn't have whatever the MVD rules state it must have. Over a certain weight it will need brakes in many places. Whose to say a cop might notice? You can always get lucky, but if you don't want to take a chance....
Some places may require insurance; my trailers carry insurance in case it comes loose and runs someone down.
My state also offers a lifetime plate/tag. My lifetime. It cost nearly four times as much as a single year but it's forever. Considering I've had the trailer for over 30 some years that's a bargain.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 2 May 2012 23:33
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What is a Park Model?
A Park Model is a structure built to RV ANSI 119.5 building code. The main limitation to a park model is that the dwelling has to be built under 400 square feet. Other than that the possibilities are endless. The structure utilizes building materials that you will find in residential construction (plaster board, tile, 2x4 and 2x6 framing, etc.) The structure is built on a single chassis and made to be semi portable from time to time and not intended for regular towing. It does require a commercial trucking company with the proper equipment to move from location to location. Since they are built to RV ANSI 119.5 codes you can place these dwelling anywhere you can legally place an RV. In many cases park models make an lot that is beyond what most would consider recoverable into a vacation getaway without sacrificing all the amenities of home.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 2 May 2012 23:36
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Quoting: Anonymous Would a trailer like this have to be titled and tagged, like a typical trailer? Maybe if only to move it to the site across the roads?
That will vary from state to state. In my state, you tag it if it moves or get a temp 3 day permit for a move. My dad owns one in California (gated snow bird retreat in Palms Springs), he must tag it every year, even though it doesnt move.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 2 May 2012 23:44 - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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Here is one for $25K in your area. Keep in mind, this includes appliances, ie stove, fridge, hot water tank, fixtures, fully finished. Just move your furniture in.
http://syracuse.craigslist.org/rvs/2931316250.html
Hopefully, "optimistic" will now be more optimistic! 
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optimistic
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# Posted: 3 May 2012 07:56
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hhh... Thanks all.
I emailed a few of those companies that sell them about what are the regulations for these.
I also found a website that states that most utility/fletbed trailers, the ones you use for these houses, are 8'6" wide because that is the maximum width you are allowed to tow without a permit. I will need to rent a strong pickup truck for the move it.
http://tinyrevolution.us/2010/10/15/what-kind-of-trailer-to-buy-for-a-tiny-house/
I couldn't find anywhere that it states the maximum size of it but I will most likely have a 30' long trailer by 8'6". that is around 250sqft.
Ok, then if I take this 'on wheels' route - what else should I check before I buy the land?
(I will call about the zoning/stay limits, the leeching pit, and also I'll try to find out about this tagging issue)
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PA_Bound
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# Posted: 3 May 2012 07:58 - Edited by: PA_Bound
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Opti... I completely understand that cabin building can be a daunting process when starting from scratch. But definitely don't give up on the dream. Okay... so you can't buy the land and build your dream cabin in the short time you hoped. Few of us here probably could (including me, I bought the land 6 years ago and it took the past 5 to adapt to and overcome the many obstacles, with a few left to go). But to ever get there you have to start. I suggested in another post to focus on buying the property first. Why? Because it was my experience that this process is difficult and that it is easy to become discouraged (been there!). But taking smaller, more manageable, steps allows you to see and feel the dream taking shape. And, as others have amply noted, there are a bunch of options on how to use the land before you build an actual cabin. My family used a tent for 5 years- and we had some great times. And some of what we learned about the land in those years can be found in the cabin we're building now. So, enjoy the experience as it unfolds, prepare to be frustrated, but don't give up.
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optimistic
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# Posted: 3 May 2012 08:57
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PA, the problem I have with buying land and then trying to figure things out is my limited budget. The cash I have to spend on this is very limited and the land I found is quite expensive for me. Then if I shed money on this land and then find out that I cannot do anything with it or that it will be much more expensive to do - then I won't want the land. I know I cannot anticipate every single issue that can arise but I sure can try... ;)
I looked up NY DMV and I found this:
http://www.dmv.ny.gov/forms/mv274.pdf
I guess I don't need to register it?
Does anyone know where I can find the code that states the building limits for such a house/trailer?
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optimistic
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# Posted: 3 May 2012 09:26
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Just called the DMV. They said that I can either register it as a trailer or get a permit to move it once as a mobile home. I believe I can only register it as a trailer.
Also, he said that if the trailer is over a 1000lbs it will have a title and everything. A said that a 30ft trailer will be over a 1000lbs for sure.
This is fine by me. He said that it is better for me that I have a title for it because I can then sell it easily if I want to. He also said that if I don't want to bother with anything - I can hire a moving company that will tow it to wherever I want. Not sure if that really saves me anything beside driving it myself.
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PA_Bound
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# Posted: 3 May 2012 09:49
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I get that... you have to be diligent and make sure the land you buy will ultimately support building a cabin. That goes without saying.
I'm not sure I'm communicating my thoughts very well, but the point I'm trying to make is that you are going from nothing to everything in one jump. There's nothing wrong with that... if you have the funds and knowledge to do it right. My concern with that approach however is that the final cost estimates and potential obstacles becomes so oppressive that we tend to suffer "paralysis by analysis" and not do anything, or look for ways to cut corners along the way on things that we'll look back on down the road and wish we would have done differently- but can't then correct.
You have to do what's right for you, and only you know what "right" is. But I'm an impatient person by nature and I have learned over the past 6 years that in my haste for instant gratification I've almost made some bad decisions in regards to my cabin. Yes... it's taken me 6 years to get started building, but I've learned a ton, made some new friends, and simply enjoyed the land while I figured things out and built up the coffers. And I know the cabin I'm building now, which is very different from what I envisioned when I started, is perfect for my family.
But you do what's right for you and, within the boundaries of the law, don't let anyone sway you.
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cabingal3
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# Posted: 3 May 2012 11:00
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i have been trying to get back to a cabin since i left Louisiana...when i was 6-dad bought an old slave plantation cabin.two rooms...and put it out at black lake,la.oh the times we had there.stuck in my memory all my life.been trying to get back for 55 yrs.
imagen my surprise when my brother found a photo of my ole uncle humbug in the kitchen cooking in that old cabin.i just got this photo last summer.i never thought i would see that cabin again.
me and the mister have bought lots of land and built cabins but something was always wrong.one place was almost a mountain u had to climb-to haul the building supplies up to.at that time i was a 5 day a week housekeeper in a asst.living place.to go out on the weekends and build that cabin was hellish...but we did it.we just sold it.got tired of tramping up and down the hillside.and too many rules out there.then we got land wher it was flat and wonderful.water dug by neighbors-400 plus feet and still no water.on and on we tried.then we found some land for 100$ down.went out to see it.bought it and built on it.love it there.its flat,its got a high water table.people all over dig their wells and some go at little as 24 feet down and have a good well.it is away from all the rains of portland,oregon.we are making it our retirement home.if we get these grandsons back to their mother ,we are retiring out there in a couple of years.so nope.still have not made it back to the cabin...but sure hoping i can last long enough to live out there.hang in there and just enjoy.do little steps.nothing u thats too big.we put down timbers for the cabin.just a square of timbers for a foundation and there it sat for ten years.then we got the land paid off and looked at each other and got all thrilled.something paid off.our cabin cost about 1,500$ by now.we are adding on a room at a time.go just hang in there.it will happen...if u keep dreaming.
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Eco~Smart
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# Posted: 3 May 2012 12:01
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To Optimistic, There are SO MANY reasons in favor of buying or building your own Dwelling on wheels. First, it is CHEAPER. No real estate taxes on a mobile. Minimal exposure to building codes, permits and worst of all- delays caused by inspection scheduling. Time is money. In a state with minimal vehicle registration fees, like NM, you can save tons of money immediately on personal property taxes. No realtor commissions involved in any transaction. You do need to be prepared to live outside an incorporated community, as most have tons of restrictive zoning regulations. You don't have to be way out in the boondocks, just 20' outside the jurisdiction, which may mean having your own well and septic system. I have lived in a rural set-up 14 miles out for years. It is just not a big deal.
I am just finishing up a 192 sq. ft. mobile dwelling for my personal use that I built on a used 26' travel trailer frame. In the process, I ended up designing a Production Model on a 30' frame that has a downstairs bedroom w/full size mattress, a 60" w. closet, big kitchen/office, a sleeping loft w/ queen mattress & 60"w. closet, bath, shower & 48"w. vanity. It has wood T-111 stained siding, a corrugated steel roof, under-floor hot water heating system, R-15 insulated walls & roof and R-22 floors, dual-pane windows, radiant barrier and Tyvek inner and outer building envelopes. Propane, electric and solar power redundancy. Will have an off-grid package available with 940W PV array and battery pack. Features a Fold-Out Greenhouse Solar Collector room, bringing the total livable sq.footage to 335 sq/ft. This brings the home into a much more livable range than the typical "Tiny Home", which I find excessively restrictive in function and appeal.
The Eco~Smart II will be in production by August 1, 2012, selling for under $30,000 for the base model, and we will likely be selling DIY Packages of plans, specs and tech support for around $500 shortly thereafter. Search Facebook for Eco~Smart Mobile Dwellings for plans and interior elevations on that page.
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optimistic
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# Posted: 3 May 2012 16:50
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What about getting it up there?
My site is hard to get - a 0.9 mile dirt road, big rocks, and a two rough slopes. This is just to get to my site. Then after I make the driveway - you have to drive another 500ft to the location of the cabin up a hill..
I want to build my tiny cabin on a 30ft trailer.... Will that be too crazy? I think I'll hire someone to tow it and put it up there though. Preferably a company that can do that with insurance.
Thoughts?
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VTweekender
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# Posted: 3 May 2012 17:24 - Edited by: VTweekender
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I think the idea is to set the bare trailer in place, block it and level it. Then build on it where you want the cabin, not really ever intending to move it (but if you had to you could)..get a generator to run your power tools and have a go at it!!!
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