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Gone2TheCamp
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# Posted: 1 Mar 2015 11:10 - Edited by: Gone2TheCamp
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I'm looking for suggestions and pointers from people who know this stuff, or have been down this road and know what potholes to avoid.
1st - This will be what we Maritimers call a 'camp'...not a cottage or home-away-from-home. I will be used by just myself 90% of the time. The Mrs and the dog come down some, but both of them are pretty low maintenance ad far as how 'pretty' the camp needs to be..... When we do have 'people' down, it's during nice summer weather and everyone tents, hangs out around the campfire, etc. So, since it's just for me, I'm up for saving a dollar at the sacrifice of something being pretty.
Functional, warm, dry...all important.
Pretty? No, I don't care.
The great thing about the camp is that it's only a 40-minute drive from home, so I can use it any weekend, sometimes we'll just go down on a Friday evening for a BBQ and a campfire, and come back home. Its main purpose is to act as a home-base for the time I spend poking around in the woods, fishing, and ATVing.
So, if you go here:
http://www.small-cabin.com/forum/6_2082_0.html#msg75382
You can have a read, and at the bottom of the page is what I have right now, and what I will be adding onto this spring.
So, I had the camper, and wanted a roof plus wanted to be able to re-use that roof in the build of the actual 'camp'.
The roof is built with trusses, etc, and is the same as a cabin roof that would sit on 4 walls. Right now, it's sitting on 2 doubled 2x8x16 beams on posts...they are taking the place of the 2x4 walls as far as how the roof sits.
The roof is ready to sit on a 12w x 16 L building. The wall with siding is not really a wall, it's just a false wall made of only siding, to keep the rain off the camper.
So. I somehow have to lift and suspend the roof, slide the camper out the side wall (where the siding is) and build a floor, insulate it, sheet it, then walls, and then I can set the roof back down on the tops of the walls.
I have a picture window and a small window, and picked up 3 more good sized windows today, I have my floor sheeting (3/4" T&G OSB) and I have all my vinyl siding and most of the strips and such I'll need for it (all scrounged).
And, obviously, my roof, trusses, shingles, etc are already done.
So....Here are some of my questions so throw me some suggestions...
1 - Best suggestion for lifting the roof, holding it up, and being able to build a frame, floor, and walls underneath it?
I was thinking jack and move my 4 posts in the corners outwards diagonaly and brace them well, build my frame and floor and walls right on the ground, set the roof on then jack the whole thing up and slide the 3 doubled 2x6 beams I plan on sitting it on under it.
There will be no 'foundation' or concrete post footings, etc..the cabin may need to be moved, so it needs to able to be skidded out, leaving as little 'damage' behind as possible.
2 - As said, sitting on top of my posts is a 16' doubled 2x8 beam running the length each side. Since it's there already, would there be any benefit to leaving it where it is, and building shorter 2x4 walls up to the bottom of it? Most of my windows and my door will be on the long end so would it not be okay to just let it act as the strength (ie: header above the windows and door) and that would be less fiddling for framing?)
Or, since I have those 2 rock solid beams already, should I use them as my...long edge? (Rim joist?)
They are not full length 2x8's, but I believe a bunch of 10', with the joints staggered then screwed together.
OR..since a 16' 2x8 is only $15, should I use single 2x8x26's as my rim joints and maybe use those two beams as 2 of my 16' beams my floor frame will be sitting on. (They'll be up off the ground, not sitting on it.)
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Gone2TheCamp
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# Posted: 1 Mar 2015 11:31
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3- Mouse-proofing and insulating.
I'm planning on building my floor frame on the lawn, upside down, so I can easily mouse-wire the top (bottom), then flip it over once it's all framed and put it in place, rather than trying to work with the wire laying on my back.
For insulating...what if....what if....I used 2x8 for my rim joints my end joints and 2x6 floor joists (but with a 2x8 every 4')?
Then I could use Styrofoam sheets (picture the floor still upside down) and lay them in on the bottoms of the 2x6's, then mousewire over the whole thing...and the 2x8 joints would sit on my beams (the 2 on the end, the 2 4' in, and the one in the center)...the 2x6 joints would be unsupported spans. 2x6 span over 12', too much? I'm in the woods, there's no building codes, and would I really care about the springiness?
The other option is to use all 2x8 joints, mousewire them, lay it in place, and then put bat insulation between the joists.
The reason I was thinking foam was because -30 is darn cold and there would be cold transfer up through the joists. (Am I over-thinking it at this point?)
Like all 2x8 joists, mousewire on the bottom, insulate between the joists, vapour barrier on top of that, then sheeting. Right?
Okay, that's all I have for right at the moment.
I hate to say it but building this cheap is very important. I don't want it to fall apart in 5 years, and I don't want snow blowing around inside, but if I can cut a corner and save a few bucks and still have it good enough for my purpose, I'd like to. It's not a house, or a cottage...think hunting camp...
Could I use 2x6 for my entire floor frame? My floor will be sitting on 3 14' beams... I get that there may be more twisting around with 2x6 frame, but the amount of frost around here makes everything shift and heave anyway. (Again, not a cottage, not a house...)
Thanks in advance, sorry for the long posts.....but it's been a LONG winter here, and we have a crazy amount of snow, and I am getting cabin fever in a big way.... 
Cheers!!!
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 1 Mar 2015 18:03
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About the most you can go with 2X8 is 12 feet, that is at 16" OC. Others can corfirm or debunk this.
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nscampgirl
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# Posted: 1 Mar 2015 20:14
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Hey Gone2TheCamp I know what you mean about getting a bit cabin crazy! I'm in NS and all I can think of is how great it will be to have mornings in the woods with sun again! Definitely interested to see what the others have to say about your floor as I'm planning to do a maritime camp too, and while I want to save where I can I also need to be able to get thru a winter weekend at -25+ Without freezing myself and the dog!
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toofewweekends
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# Posted: 1 Mar 2015 21:36
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Find a young, strong friend when you set the picture window. I did a 6x4 double pane with another fellow and on two ladders we were near the limit for middle age strength and agility!
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Don_P
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# Posted: 1 Mar 2015 22:42
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Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech About the most you can go with 2X8 is 12 feet, that is at 16" OC. Others can confirm or debunk this.
Yup
Can you lay the future joists on the ground a couple deep to make 2 tracks, put pipes on those, drop the camper onto the pipes and roll it out without disturbing the roof?
Building walls under the beams leaves a weak hinge in the wall.
From the pics the roof support looks very tender, some temporary diagonal knee braces in both directions from exterior of posts up to beam or truss bottom chords until you get the walls sheathed would be a good idea.
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Gone2TheCamp
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# Posted: 2 Mar 2015 12:07
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For the 12' with 2x8...(Sorry if I'm not getting the point...)
The joists will run the width, so 12'. But the joists will be sitting on 3 beams running the length of the camp..one down the center and two on the outsides, likely 12"-14" in from the outer edge. So, the longest unsupported stretch across a joist would be a shade under 5'.
I said 'picture window' but it's not actually that large..for a 12x16 camp it would 'seem' like a picture window. 
Getting the camper out isn't an issue, I've got access to a couple ATVs with winches, and some big solid trees in the direction I'll need to slide it out. And it'll fit out the end with about a foot to spare on each side.
The current walls on each end are actually braced really well but not visible, as is the rear 'wall'. I kept the bracing to a minimum along the front wall since they would be in the way for moving around on the patio and such. But yes, I'll make sure to have it braced WELL while I build under it.
For the bracing, etc, I guess my main head-scratcher is how to actually support it so I have a clear 12x16 footprint under it to build a floor and walls to lower it back down on.
I was thinking 2 16' beams under the trusses and then 4 14' beams under those and 4x4 posts on the ends of those (with steel post brackets at the top to hold them fast) and lots of diagonal bracing. ?
I DID have it in my head to build the roof so I could drop it on walls when I originally built it but I fully admit to not really thinking about HOW i would actually do that until now.
I've measured it out and if I brace the roof at the height it sits at right now (without having to lift it higher) I will have room to set my bottom frame on the ground, insulate and sheet, put up walls, then drop the roof a couple inches into place. Then it's just a matter of jacking and cribbing the camp to the height off the ground I need it at, then put my beams in. Meaning, I don't actually have to lift the roof higher than it is right now...to get this acomplished. (and I'm only stating that fact to make myself feel better...hehe) But I do somehow need to keep it at least at the height it's at now, and support it outside its own footprint. THAT'S what I foresee as being the biggest wrench in the works.
And point taken on not using the beam as part of the wall due to the hinging effect.
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Don_P
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# Posted: 2 Mar 2015 22:56
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2x6 joists will certainly work at a 5'-6' span. I'd incorporate the 4x4's in their present location and unbroken from foundation to beam if at all possible. A post extending from top of wall through the floor and to the pier is braced by the wall sheathing. Are the roof beams level in length and with one another? What is the current shortest height from top of pier to underside of truss bottom chord?
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Gone2TheCamp
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# Posted: 4 Mar 2015 12:22 - Edited by: Gone2TheCamp
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"Incorporate the 4x4's.."
Not sure if you are meaning the same thing as when I was thinking "Why couldn't I leave the 4x4's right where they are, and build walls to slip right between them?" ..? If so, then yes, I considered leaving the 4 corner posts right were they are and incorporating them into my walls. Only thing is, that 'hinge' effect, since all 4 corner posts are sitting on an end of the double 2x8 beam.... No offence to the person that mentioned it, but I don't think it would be a issue... But I may be wrong.
post extending, top of wall, pier....sorry, honestly you lost me on that sentence.
By 'roof beams', I'm not sure what you're referring to...if you mean the 16' doubled-up 2x8's that the roof trusses are sitting on, then yes. They are level, parrallel, etc.
I don't recall the height, but we did measure it and from the ground to the bottom of a truss (at the shortest place) there is room for an 8' wall, floor sheeting, and a 2x8 base. Just...well, 2" to spare.
Something else I've considered, who says the wall HAS to be 8'? 7'6" walls would allow lots of wiggle room, plus give me 6" of material to overlap my...floor frame? at the bottom, rather than have that seam right where the bottom plate meets the floor.
And as for waste inside, I'm thinking I'll do something inventive with wall covering, so click flooring over strapping, or possibly tongue and groove board, so I wouldn't be wasting a full 4x8 sheet of anything by having to hack it up.
I'm 5'8", and the wife is shorter...and I'm not building it for anyone else but her and I.
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Don_P
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# Posted: 4 Mar 2015 19:06
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Sounds like we're on the same page, yes leave it alone and build inside what is there. As I was thinking about it the end walls between the doubled up roof beams would run up alongside the 4x4's and the roof beams. Nail the end studs of the gable end walls to the 4x4 and the double 2x8's and it is knitted together to restrain that hinge. For the floor frame there are heavy duty double joist hangers with inturned ears that could nail to the 4x4's to hold the floor support beams. It seems I've mislaid my Simpson catalog, I believe it is one of the HUC connectors. If you have a fast connection they are online at strongtie.com. There will need to be short post and piers at the midpoint of the 16' under those floor beams. The floor system should be treated lumber that close to the ground. Mobile home anchors would be a good idea to hold the building down
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Gone2TheCamp
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# Posted: 4 Mar 2015 21:47
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Very true on the end walls looking after that hinge-thing.
I see you're thinking along the lines of 'hanging' the floor on the 4x4's.
I was thinking fit the walls in between the posts, then run a few temporary beams along the 12' under the bottom plates of the walls, and then it would be easy to jack and support them, lifting the whole works up as high as I like to built a frame and floor to set it on. (Cutting the bottoms of the 4x4's flush with the bottom of the walls, so it would sit on the floor like it 'should'.)
I've talked to friends and such, and they don't get that the issue isn't building the walls, floor, etc...it's hanging the roof from space while I do all that. I kind of thought I was nuts to want to leave the corner 4x4's in and build onto them. Glad to see someone with the same idea... 
For close to the ground, I was thinking of having it a few feet off the ground, actually. Things may change with the land, so it needs to remain portable (with a float), so having it up already would be one less thing to do if/when it needs to be moved.
Plus, I'd sooner have it high enough to discourage critters from wanting to live under there and to keep it dry. There's a fair amount of porcupines around and it seems like someone builds something and the buggers set to work eating it right away.
Okay, now, I just need the 3.3m of snow we've had this winter to melt so I can get building!! haha
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Gone2TheCamp
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# Posted: 4 Mar 2015 21:51 - Edited by: Gone2TheCamp
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Just a note, reading that over, it sounded like I was going to try to jack the building on a 2x4 bottom plate....no. It would get some extra temporary support for sure.
I have a friend up the road who does builds, renos, etc..and it's funny to ask him questions because the answers are from the standpoint of how it would be done the best for a customer, done the quickest, the less time wasted. Obviously, those are the RIGHT answers, but his priorities are very different.
It's just interesting to see the differences.
The difference between a customer choosing this floor tile or that one would likely come to the same amount as my budget for my entire build...hehe
And if he spent a full day building junk to lift the equivalent of a garden shed, he'd be out of business in no time...for me, it's just another day at the camp.
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Don_P
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# Posted: 4 Mar 2015 23:06
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By running the corner 4x4's from your pier blocks up into the walls they are well braced. When you cut them off and jack the building up to set it on something you lose that bracing, you're back into a "hinge-thing" going on in a different place. Stand 4 pencils on end on a table and set a block of wood on top. Next drill 4 holes in the corners of the block, insert the pencils through the block and tack them in place. #1 is not a good idea, #2 is essentially a post frame type building. If you replace the pencils in #1 with a full foundation you'll have conventional construction and in that case sitting the 4x's on the floor is how it "should" be. Jacking up a structure like this to move it would take a couple of hours, it is stronger and more stable if you keep it low.
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Gone2TheCamp
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# Posted: 5 Mar 2015 10:47
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Okay, I see what you mean, but in my layman's brain, I keep having this question:
Would it not be better to have a typical sheeted floor frame with the walls and roof sitting on it as per 'usual'.....?
and...Would hanging a floor on posts like that not be a weak point? Or are you saying to leave the posts in for strength, and maybe zing them off level with the BOTTOM of the floor frame, and then beam it, block it or whatever as usual....? (As opposed to keeping the 4 corner posts in place to keep bearing weight as they are now...)
Either way, I'm 100% behind leaving those posts in place....that eliminates my biggest hurdle; hanging the roof from space..
Awesome stuff...thanks! Oh, and I question not because I think I'm right and you're wrong.. I just don't know....I have it in my head that something's a bad idea, because I THINK it is...but I have no practical experience to back up what I THINK.
And I'll be the first to admit that I had lots of GREAT ideas, until I started building them and then I realize..."Ohhhhh...." and then you get good at taking stuff apart.. hehe
That's why impact drivers have a REVERSE setting, right?
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Don_P
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# Posted: 5 Mar 2015 16:43
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If you start down the "usual" path you pretty much need to use the whole usual system. A foundation with full perimeter walls on footings is certainly far better than anything we have talked about, but it is also unmoveable. Posts from those deck blocks up to the underside of the floor are likely to overturn if a strong wind hits the building, yes I know the wind never blows on this acre The moment you zing off those posts and insert some type of short unbraced post, pier, rock, spare tire or stump under the building it creates a hinge, hinges like to move. By maintaining the post unbroken from deep up inside the wall, a good brace, and then extend it a reasonably short distance down to the pier block, that post is not going to rotate. It's failure would be to break. I'm not a fan of 4x4's for anything other than holding up a mailbox but it is what you have to work with. I'm even less of a fan of pier blocks, which are forbidden in many places for good reason. I'm not trying to be harsh or mean, I'm actually having a little fun with you and I hope you're a good sport but I also don't want anyone following this to think it is a good way to build. We're just trying to make a not too bitter glass of lemonade.
One way to think about the whole unbroken vs 2 piece post thing; Imagine building a floor that is supported on 2 parallel beams. Rather than the ends of the floor joists stopping over the beams they overhang the beams a foot. Sounds good so far as long as we keep the overhang within reason for the materials used. But, what if instead I end the joists over the beams and then tack a 1' long joist onto the ends of the joists to form that overhang, personally I wouldn't want to step out there. Instead of gravity and my weight creating the load on that weak joint, in your situation wind or even a tremor can create a horizontal load. Many builders only consider gravity and ignore the other forces that can act on a building. Down is the biggie but natural forces can also cause the building to want to go sideways, to overturn and even to lift up. All of these forces should be considered and resisted. Engineering, and the moment you pick up a board and hammer you are engineering, engineering is basically about quantifying the forces and providing resistance of at least that magnitude to those forces.
We're good right up to that last sentence. In general use nails for structural work. Most screws are brittle and give no warning before they snap. A brittle failure is an engineer's worst nightmare, things just go WHUMP with no warning. What you always want to design is a ductile failure, the building should visibly distort and the connectors should be howling long before the building fails. That bridge in Ottawa that suddenly collapsed several years ago was a classic brittle failure. They had saved money on the steel reinforcing and concrete by itself is brittle, it gave no warning. You can use structural screws for structural work, things like timberlocks, ledgerlocks, oly's, simpson has a line, they are all very good and will give a ductile failure rather than a brittle one.
I believe I just rambled
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Gone2TheCamp
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# Posted: 8 Mar 2015 18:36
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Awesome info...thanks Don.
Oh, and at least I don't have to worry about snow load....cuz it's not like we get any here. I went down to check on the place today...found we'd gotten a light dusting..hehe
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Gone2TheCamp
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# Posted: 8 Mar 2015 20:43
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So, I dug down to the piers and did some measuring.
The posts are sitting in those elephant foot things (that Don doesn't like..hehe).
Going with the shortest post, using a 2x8 rim joist (header?..etc) with the bottom edge of it even with the bottom of the post (ie, sitting in the notch in the pier block)...that would give me.....
7.25" of 2x8, .75" of t&g OSB which will be my actual floor surface...so 6' 10.5" from the floor surface to the bottom of my trusses. Say I put 1/2" foam on the bottom of the trusses and then 1/4" plywood on that as my finished ceiling, I'm looking at a useable height of 6' 9.75" inside.
Now, remember...this is a 12x16 camp, and will be used exclusively by myself, and sometimes the Mrs. I'm 5'8", and she's 5'2". Both of us are pretty much done growing (upwards, at least), so with no ceiling fans or light fixtures, why the heck wouldn't 13.75" of headroom be enough?
Again, we don't entertain IN the camp; if company is there, we're always outside, and they tent.
I understand it's not ideal, but short of getting a crane in there to lift that roof, it's what I have to work with.
Exterior sheeting will be run down the wall and over the 2x8 at the bottom, so waste there won't be too bad. The inside walls will be covered with something that doesn't come in 4x8 sheets anyway...
Oh...just realized I need a door. Well now.....
Okay...bottom of that double 2x8 beam to the finished floor would be 6' 2.5" I'm no carpenter, but I'm thinking that an exterior door isn't going to fit.....They're what...80" if you get a shortie?
Other option is jacking one side (end) and replacing the 7-foot something posts with 10' posts, setting it back down, doing the other end, and then hang the 2x8's for my floor frame where they should go to end up with a conventional 8' wall. (I'm thinking this will be the winner.....)
Final option, carefully pull the nails out of the shingles, strip the roof sheeting off, pull the trusses out, start with bare ground and build it all again.
No......
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Gone2TheCamp
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# Posted: 13 Nov 2018 09:50
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Well..obviously things got put on the back burner for...a while... but that's how life goes, right?
A friend and I tackled it this fall...hooked the Jeep onto the camper, winched it out from under the 'structure', and we got rolling.
What ended up happening was:
Winch out camper.
Build bracing in preparation for moving posts.
Kicked the corner posts out just enough to build a floor flat on the ground.
Build the floor frame, insulated with Reflectix, sheeted with 3/4" T&G OSB.
Build the front wall, beat thrashed, kicked and screamed until it stood up and held up the roof.
Said adios to the 2 posts and the 2x8 beam along the front wall.
Repeat procedure with back wall.
Build and stand up end walls.
Sit back and say "Anyone can build from the bottom UP..it takes a special kind of stupid to start with a roof and build DOWN...."
Get out several hydraulic jacks and begin lifting the whole thing up, since the floor joists are still sitting flat on the ground...
So, it's now sitting on 3 sistered 2x8 beams, and far enough that I can slither around underneath it without having to skip breakfast.
Making king plates that interlock at the corners is interesting when you are working with walls that are already supporting a roof...
My buddy, who was a HUGE help, was only able to be there to help with the framing portion, so I set about installing the exterior sheeting myself. Luckily my neighbour stopped by and told me I was installing the OSB inside out when I was only 2 sheets into the job.
Surprisingly, the odd process of wall-building process (by 2 guys that have never framed a wall in their life) resulted in the floor and walls being fairly square. The issue came about when it became evident that when I had originally built the roof sitting on posts and beams, I neglected to make sure the bottoms of the end trusses were square/parallel to each other.
So...that resulted in a very heavy roof that required a LOT of levering, ratchet straps heading off in several directions to the trees surrounding the camp to get it sitting on the walls correctly. And by correctly I mean, in the right spot forwards and back so that the rafter tails didn't ride up on the king plates and raise the roof up off the walls.... And getting it moved end-to-end so that the bottoms of the end trusses sat on the end walls correctly. And by correctly, I mean, trying to split the difference in the non-square roof so I'd be able to sheet it without there being huge gaps and holes....
So, eventually got it all sheeted and wrapped. Then I found someone on Kijiji (think Canadian Craigslist) that recovers and sells rigid foam insulation from commercial buildings...headed over to his place and bought enough 3.5" 4x4 sheets to do the walls and 1.5" 4x4 sheets to do the ceiling, for $168. Woo!
Insulated and vapour barriered, then my buddy was able to help me with the 1/4" OSB that was going up as the ceiling.
Another score....a friend who is moving and selling his house contacted me and asked if I might want some tongue and groove white cedar he had left over from a project. You bet!!
I got there and found that 'some' actually meant 'A LOT'. I loaded up the trailer and drug it home....this long weekend just gone by I was able to get all 4 interior walls done. I didn't count the amount of cedar I started with, but I'd estimate I only used about half of what he gave me.
So, it's weather-tight, critter-proof, and aside from electrical and possibly laying down flooring, it's now time to stop for the winter.
As for heating, it will only be used here and there on weekends in the winter, so squeezing every cent out of the heating method just isn't necessary, so I went with what was easiest. I did consider taking the small furnace out of the camper and installing it in the new camp, but it needs to be vented to the outside, and I figured that if I built it INTO the camp, I'd be screwed when it failed and would never be able to find parts for it.
A wood stove in a 12x16 space would likely amount to a complete inability to regulate the heat...and you have to cut and lug wood.. I know that's part of the romance, but....
Enter the big buddy propane heater that I scored for a great deal on Amazon a year or so. After a few nights in the new place, I found that even though it was several degrees below freezing outside, anything higher than the lowest setting would be too hot. Even my wife got up in the middle of the night to open a window further because she was too hot..and she's always cold.
The buddy heater has a low-oxygen shutoff, and it shuts off if tipped or even given a bump. Sounds safer than a 30-yearold RV furnace....
As for heating up, I went to the camp and it was 6 degrees C. I started the heater and ran it on high, in 8 minutes the temp had climbed to 16c. So, it heats up quick and seems to be pretty good about holding its heat. Obviously, it's only been -5c or so at night, but it gives me confidence that I'll be able to be comfortable in the cold temps.
I can add some pictures if anyone's interested, and I have some typical questions about power/inverters/batteries, but will ask those in another area.
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creeky
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# Posted: 13 Nov 2018 10:31
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Congrats on your hard work paying off. I miss Don_P.
If you're looking for a place to unload that extra tongue in groove cedar. I want to add insulation between the joists on my winter bedroom (I have 6" exterior polyiso for R40). Now I need some'at to cover it.
Maybe do a swap for power/inverter/batteries? You in On?
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Gone2TheCamp
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# Posted: 13 Nov 2018 11:57 - Edited by: Gone2TheCamp
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I actually have a wall in one of the rooms in the basement (of the house) that I had to rip apart the drywall so the crack-filling guys could repair a foundation crack. Drywall isn't one of my skills, so it's just been a big hole looking at me for a while. Now it's going to be a cedar wall.
I'm in NB
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