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smythejohn
Member
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# Posted: 25 Nov 2015 19:36
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Hello:
I am new to the forum. There appears to be good discussions on living off the grid. Very interesting.
I own property in a rural area and I am seriously considering going off the grid, this our getaway for the weekend. This is a significant choice considering I am a city slicker.
However aside from the usual pros and cons of living off the grid; what is it like/
would you do it again?
Are concerns that are not addressed initially however discovered later on?
Thanks for your help.
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 25 Nov 2015 21:00 - Edited by: MtnDon
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Thinking literally.... electricity....
Quoting: smythejohn what is it like/ would you do it again?
There are a lot of "depends..." to be reckoned with.
How many watt-hours of power is needed is a big one. How much does it cost to connect to the grid, another.
Case in point; our cabin is off grid because the grid tie connection was estimated at $55,000. That was in 2008. We built a good for the purpose off grid PV system for about $8000 back then. I could do it for less today as PV $$ have fallen or I could opt for LFP batteries and spend about the same, maybe a little more. The POCO cost is now likely even higher.
Would I do it again? Yes/No. If the grid connection cost about the same or more, that's a Big Yes. If I could get grid connected for say... $5000, No.
Rambling notes....
It is difficult and/or expensive to enlarge a PV system once it is implemented. For example. if you determine later that you do need the ability to run an air conditioner that could mean changing some equipment, or running a noisy, smelly, generator. Or it may mean buying a $1200 split mini instead of a $200 window shaker.
If you are your own power company you are also your own power company maintenance and repair guy. Or you pay some other guy. If you are a non technical city slicker that may not be compatible.
My personal opinion is, if the grid is close and affordable it is still a very viable choice for many folks.
Quoting: smythejohn Are concerns that are not addressed initially however discovered later on?
The biggest problems are caused by...
1. Underestimating actual power needed
2. Overestimating the PV production and
3. ...installing too little PV panel capacity.
4. Undersizing the battery bank capacity
Do your homework well before deciding one way or the other.
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 25 Nov 2015 21:37
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Just want to clarify by what you mean by "going off grid".
Weekends and couple of weeks here & there ?
Spending weeks / month at a time ?
Starting slow and moving permanently ?
Seasonal, 3 or 4 seasons ?
How many ? Kids / adults average
Then there's things like water source, compost toilet VS septic, grey water or not, accessibility, materials (building wood, firewood/fuels, etc)
This info may help get some better and hopefully helpful answers to some of your questions. Ohhh your General Location is helpful too.
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beachman
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# Posted: 26 Nov 2015 17:33
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We are off grid by necessity, not choice - although we have gotten used to this over many years and would not have it any other way. Lately, we have installed solar with pretty good results. It is always a challenge to see what can be done to create conveniences while off grid. We have no road access which makes getting older, more difficult. But, in some ways, this keeps us young. We do not live there full time, but we could with some major winter adjustments. Water supply would be the main issue as freezing is a problem. We have propane appliances and lights as well as a wood stove. All works great for 3 seasons. As usual, MtnDon is spot on with the electrical requirements. It can be done with a little resourcefulness. It is a good way to go and I highly endorse it.
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groingo
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# Posted: 26 Nov 2015 20:23
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It's not something you want to typically jump into, as of now you want to learn how to do more with less, set goals for energy reduction which doesn't always mean sacrificing but just doing things differently.
I have a rule, reduce dependence on electricity wherever possible, not just doing without but finding workable alternatives, start now and the transition will be a much smoother one.
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Gary O
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# Posted: 27 Nov 2015 08:51 - Edited by: Gary O
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Welcome, John
These two sentences are conflicting and can easily promote a misguided reply.
Quoting: smythejohn I am seriously considering going off the grid, this our getaway for the weekend.
Quoting: smythejohn However aside from the usual pros and cons of living off the grid; what is it like
A vacation/weekend spot.
Or,
a vacation/weekend spot that you're considering as your home....
I'll assume you are considering the latter, altering your lifestyle and considering a move, fulltime, to your rural spot, as a reply in regard to an off grid weekend spot would be trifling at best since you could bring whatever convenience you'd think you'd need on those weekends...
Let's get to it;
Moving to a rural off grid parcel.
Age is a consideration, but not as huge as one would imagine, since 'living' just gets a bit more challenging as one ages......wherever you are.
Most do what they can to make things as comfy as possible until they have to move to assisted care.....but some, some want a bit more, not in regard to comfort and ease, but in regard to reaching out for a bit of zest.
I have found this zest can be obtained without much expense.
Yeah, living off grid.
Y'see, we are doing what you're considering.
I'm 66.
I've slogged away at an occupation for a handful of decades, not realizing life was whipping by.
We got a bit of a head start ten years ago, securing property and building a cabin.
Then, well what comes next is retirement.
And here we are.
You can read about our adventures in our thread (Our Tiny Cabin Experience).
But, as it turns out, age is not the huge obstacle one might imagine.
When we were first building, there was a young family on the acre next door, doing what they could to carve out their lives.
Strapping young man, very capable.
They are no longer out here.
But here we are.
A bit long in the tooth.
The fire in our eyes could very well just be the reflection of a flashlight on our cataracts.
But it's not.
It's a reflection of what's in our hearts, our minds.
A reflection of dreams, dreams rapidly becoming realities.
A reflection of accomplishment
...with our hands.
A reflection of satisfaction.
Satisfaction most only dream of.
This satisfaction cannot be bought.
Cannot be attained from the work of others.
It is attained from within.
If you have that fire.
If your mate has that fire.
Then you need not even be asking what it's like.
Most let that dream pass by, seeking a happiness from a game of golf, or a favorite TV show, or a favorite food.
When, for some, the mental nourishment of getting one's hands dirty is the only tangible satisfaction, the only dream realized, the only real happiness.
Yes, making that decision requires a huge commitment.
And it takes both of you.
You both need to have that dream, that commitment, in order to experience the romance of rural off grid living.
Read the threads here.
It's where the few have gathered.
So, toddle on with the masses, biding a comfortable time in your existence
....until you require assistance....
Or
make the decision of the few.
What's it like?
Like
nothing else
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Wilbour
Member
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# Posted: 27 Nov 2015 09:40
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We have a "Weekend Getaway" that's off the grid. If I end up spending my retirement there I may go Solar but right now I even struggle with the decision of getting a genny.
I have come to the conclusion that if I encounter a time when my rechargeable batteries give out then I just do without. After all the point is to get way from it all.
We kinda like not having the comforts of home.
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offgridliving
Member
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# Posted: 5 Dec 2015 15:20
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I have had an off-grid place for almost 20 years. Initially, it was out of necessity due to the expense of grid connection. Now, it is by choice.
Yes, I would do it all again. But, I would do it differently.
I bought land with nothing on it at a time in my life when I had no money. I jumped in with both feet because I had the desire and the passion to do it. But, I lived hard for the first few years.
Living off the grid is possible for anyone if you have the right mind set. Think about the reasons you want to go off-grid as this will make the difference in the type of lifestyle you will try to build.
Do you want to be self-reliant or completely self-sufficient? To be completely self-sufficient means that you are living a life without assistant from outside resources. If you are dependent on a certain amount of out-side resources I think you lean more toward being self-reliant.
For example, I depend on a certain amount of propane for my cookstove. So, I have to purchase propane, an outside resource. But, I need a woodstove for heat 6 to 7 months out of the year. During that time, I cook off the woodstove 90% of the time and use very little propane. I am strongly self-reliant but not truly self-sufficient.
Generally speaking, I keep a stock pile of resources at the cabin: numerous cords of seasoned wood, propane to last two years, gas and oil for chainsaw, cellar full of home-canned goods, numerous containers of staple dry goods. This keeps me very self-reliant. I guess now-a-days, this is called being a prepper. But, when I was growing up on a farm where we literally were self-sufficient, this was called being smart.
Being off-grid, you need to make sure your basics are covered, the things you really need to survive: food, water, shelter, a source of heat and/or cooling, a way to cook a meal, and a way to take care of personal hygiene.
You also need to thing about a source of power, lighting etc. Years ago, I started out with propane lights, very inexpensive. Then I graduated to an initial 60 watt, 68 amp/hr system, and LED lights. Again, very inexpensive. These days, with significant drops in the price of solar, you can likely get a 1 kW system for less than $6000????
I hope this have helped.
Cheers
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smythejohn
Member
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# Posted: 12 Dec 2015 15:56
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Thank you all for your helpful comments.
Our property will be a seasonal place Spring, Fall, Winter getaway and it is down the road from the ski hills.
Connecting to the grid is expensive and unfortunately it is the unknown when working with Hydro. The stakeout fee for pole layout is $ 3,000 and based on the current layout the connection price is $ 50-$60,000 as a budget. This excludes tree clearing, etc. If the property owners along the proposed pole route object then it means another $ 3,000 stakeout fee for a new proposed route coming from another direction which is even farther, meaning more poles, more money.
I have been researching and working with a solar products supplier for panels, inverters, etc. Our log cabin is 1000 sq,ft main floor and 480 sq.ft of loft space with a walkout basement. I figured my consumption rate is 7.5kw-10kw/day
(I could probably do better) so we figure a 2500 watt panel system.
We will be using propane furnace, fridge, cooktop
On Demand water system.
Drilled well
Backup Generator
Merry Christmas
John
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 12 Dec 2015 16:59 - Edited by: MtnDon
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Quoting: smythejohn the connection price is $ 50-$60,000 as a budge
That's a big ouch! Our cabin power estimate was $55K, which is why our cabin is PV powered. In 2009 our system came to about $8800 using Outback hardware. Today it would be a fair bit less because of current PV $.
Quoting: smythejohn I figured my consumption rate is 7.5kw-10kw/day
Double Ouch!! Using propane for heating, cooking and the fridge where is that going?
We run a suburban grid tied home with electric range and oven, 23 cu ft electric fridge, laundry, 60" TV, etc, on an average of 11 kWh a day. The fridge is a big chunk of that and we use the electric range and oven a lot. That does not include summer A/C, which can double the kWh used. We do use LED lighting for everything we can.
A friend who designs and installs off grid system tells me that most of his clients manage on 4 to a maximum of 5 kWh a day. That's full time living. Our part time cabin uses less than 1 kWh, daily average, no big electric appliances. For some of my friends clients their use even includes split mini A/C, run mostly as an opportunity load. That includes having the panels on trackers.
We figure if we wanted to do a grid tie system that would give us a net zero power bill we would need about 2500 watts of PV, to comfortably cover everything except the summer A/C load. So I am having trouble reconciling your estimate of power use (larger than ours) with the same size array. We're in NM with great solar insolation.
Your estimate would need a very substantial bank of batteries as well and there is a loss due to battery inefficiencies.
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 12 Dec 2015 17:54
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Quoting: smythejohn Connecting to the grid is expensive and unfortunately it is the unknown when working with Hydro.
You say "Hydro" therefore I assume your Canadian. Fall of 2014 I got a Hydro Estimate @ 37K, this spring that jumped to 44K and as of Nov.01 60K thanks to Wynne's changes for the sale of Hydro One... Needless to say, Hydro stayed down the road where it belongs ! Ohhh and there is a LOT of Extras that pop up, they even charge you for screws & nails if they use them (I got to know a few of the H-1 Crew around this area).
I shopped around like mad and spent far too many hours researching vendors and various products that suited my specifics & needs. I found SolaCity out of Kemptville Ontario. Rob Beckers the owner is also Electrical Engineer and they are big on energy conservation and green building methods (their big store & shop is Straw bale Construction). Their prices are excellent comparatively speaking and they can custom design a setup that works for you.
Things to ponder....
- 240 Volt Stuff is something best avoided
- If drilling a well, go with a 6" casing (most options that way)
- Look at a GOOD QUALITY PUMP... I went with a Grundfos 5-SQ soft start 120V which is 240 feet deep in my well. This is one point where you really must consider the "U get what you pay for" rule and water is life critical.
- Furnace Motors, like any motor, suck a lot of juice, something to be aware of.
As for your usage... 7.5-10 Kw a day is, well, "ouch". Is this based on you urban home ? (the numbers provided on your hydro bill)
Hot Water Tanks (least efficient creature invented) & 240V Dryer, 240V Stove Central AC are ALL Power Hogs... Older fridges & freezers can also make your power meter go spinningly mad...
Hope it helps.
Steve
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silverwaterlady
Member
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# Posted: 12 Dec 2015 18:25 - Edited by: silverwaterlady
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Since your cabin is seasonal does this mean it will be unheated when you are not there?
Is your log cabin insulated?
I can give you some good advise if I know the answers to these questions because we have a seasonal log cabin in Northern Ontario,Canada.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 12 Dec 2015 18:34
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I haven't built my cabin yet, delayed due to a medical thing. But when I was in the "can I do this?" phase, I started doing some research, both online and hands-on. I looked at my current on-grid electric and water usage.
My home is all electric and 2 of us live here. Like you, the bill is for between 10-15 kilowatts per day, on average, when there aren't temperature extremes. For 2 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms used, large kitchen with every appliance imaginable, 2 TVs and cable boxes, 2 full-size computers, my son has a bunch of electronics in his room, non-LED lights for all of this and a dining room and living room, besides. The 40-gallon electric water heater is a big energy user.
I looked at my appliances to see how many watts they use. My fridge is energy star and surprisingly not a hog at all. The range and water heater are. But what surprised me was how many watts the small appliances used. YIKES! Toasters, toaster ovens, coffee makers are watt hogs. I never would have guessed that! And my flat panel TV isn't. Go figure.
So I started thinking about what I truly NEEDED to be powered electrically, what could be accomplished in other ways, what I needed at all, and, for the things that I do need electrically, what the miser products are. LED lights are winners, but I also found a battery operated, lighted medicine cabinet with a mirror for the bathroom so I'll only need one. And I found a solar-powered LED light that will be perfect for the kitchen and comes with its own little panel. So I'll only need one good LED light for the living room. And I bought several oil lamps. 
A woodstove for heat and some cooking; an RV propane range in the kitchen; a compact, portable washer that only uses 300 watts but I'll only use it maybe twice per week. I'll downsize the TV to a smaller, even more energy-efficient model. Same with my computer. A chest freezer that uses about 400 watts per day max and I think I can get that down further. A Shur-Flo pump for my plumbing fixtures.
All told, I'm estimating my average daily electric needs will be about 1.5 Kilowatts, maybe less if I'm careful. I'll have a generator, too, and anticipate running the washer off that, at times.
I'm considering a wind turbine, too. I've been tracking the wind speeds on the mountain and it's quite brisk in the fall and winter, it seems, when I'd need it most for battery charging.
Grid hookup to my cabin would be about $50,000 even though it's not very far away. I'd have to pay for some pricey poles and other equipment because no one else has built on my road yet. But I'd rather generate my own power, anyway.
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creeky
Member
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# Posted: 14 Dec 2015 19:25
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SmytheJohn
A good solar system would cost you about 15k. With anticipated 10kw/day use.
Depending on insolation of course. You would need 3kw panels. Go 48v. One solar controller. One inverter (3kw/w charger built in). An 18kw lithium battery pack (bulk of the expense at $8000). A small genny.
Now you have 93% efficient inverter. 98% efficient solar control. 96% charge/discharge on the battery.
Your good to go for probably in the neighborhood of 20 years.
Lithium batteries also let you easily, efficiently use large amounts of power quickly. A/C, electric cook top, toaster, etc.
I've been using an electric fridge for 3 years now (and saved over 1000 in propane costs, having subtracted the cost of the fridge). I have a small electric clothes washer. I even use a dishwasher running solely on solar, even heating the water with the electric element. Yup, it's gotta be real sunny to do that.
Never run the genny for any of those devices.
And I have a lead acid battery pack. And a 2kw solar panel set up.
Forget the previous generation of solar completely. Get good panels, a solid controller, a new age inverter/charger (preferably designed and built in Europe), and a lithium (lifepo4) battery.
Welcome to 2015.
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smythejohn
Member
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# Posted: 14 Dec 2015 20:17
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Thanks again everyone for the feedback I feel owe a dinner or cold beer at my new place:
Our experience with Hydro this past year was frustrating to understand their lack of interest in expanding their customer base. The property is located in Haliburton Ontario, 2.5 hrs north of Toronto. Hydro admitted that they are no longer interested in the Pole business and prefer to do service and final connections only. Basically, they quote you outrageous budget numbers to discourage the customer from moving forward with the new Hydro service. In fact, they confirmed that a private contractor could install the poles and wire providing it meets Hydro's specification however permission is required from all the adjacent land owners to accept the Pole locations. If any of the adjacent land owners disapprove with the Pole location, you have re-start from another direction to our property. Anyway I am done with Hydro for now.
The off grid information is valuable considering I have construction background of 25 years as a General Contractor and so use to having Hydro show up and deliver the new transformer, so the feedback is an eye opener for me.
In Ontario and as per the building code, the primary source of heat is either, electric, gas or propane and wood stoves for a secondary source of heat.
The new place is a log home which will use 8" logs cut from white cedar located from New Brunswick. The log home will be insulated. I plan
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smythejohn
Member
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# Posted: 14 Dec 2015 20:35
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just to continue from the previous note...I plan on spray insulating to get into the tight corners below the roof and add batt insulation between the roof rafters.
The main floor will be insulated between the floor joists below.
since this is a seasonal place I want to be able to control the heating remotely if possible using an App. Does anybody have this type of system installed?
The log home is located along the 45 deg latitude and solar availability in November is limited. I have been told that I require throughout the year 3 hours of sunlight of average daily to supplement the batteries and in the event of a shortfall the genny will kick in at about the 60% range.
does this seem reasonable?
John
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 14 Dec 2015 20:52
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Quoting: smythejohn since this is a seasonal place I want to be able to control the heating remotely if possible using an App. Does anybody have this type of system installed?
I have a friend with a Nest wi-fi thermostat. It is a nifty device. From what he tells me it works just fine.
I can't bring myself to spend those $$ though for the limited number of times it would be nice to make an adjustment remotely. For our cabin it would be useless as I will also not spend the $$ in order to have an active wi-fi connection up there. My friend has a DSL connection full time at their place. Not so remote as we are.
But there are a few times it would be nice to change the setting at home so the house is warmed up before we return after a few days absence.
There are, or at least were a few years ago, some systems that did not need wi-fi. They just needed a cell signal at the cabin and a phone left there,powered. Again, lots of expense, IMO
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Jebediah
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# Posted: 16 Dec 2015 10:46 - Edited by: Jebediah
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I'm thankful that there will never be hydro in my area keeps the foot traffic down. No one around for miles. I was surprised to find out that there is cell phone service.
Pro's
-The only human noise I hear is the odd plane.
-I have a neighbour, who is seasonal and his place is 2 miles away and he only vacations there 3 weeks in the summer and he doesn't own a boat lol.
-No gas engines allowed on the lake.
- I love the solitude.
Con's
I rely on propane.
My neighbour is too close lol. 2miles away.
There is a lake access road a few miles down , I make sure I drop enough dead trees there now to keep the polluters out. They leave garbage everywhere.
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smythejohn
Member
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# Posted: 16 Dec 2015 19:20
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what about solar?
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neb
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# Posted: 16 Dec 2015 19:44
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It looks good. What part of the country you in?
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Ontario lakeside
Member
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# Posted: 17 Dec 2015 00:50
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I installed a single 100 watt panel, 10amp charge controller and 2 used batteries I salvage from a neighbours electric lawn mower. Im amazed that this is enough power for us most of the time. If you curb your consumption you can get by with a small system. Now the things we don't have are, fridge, well pump and AC. any of those three would cripple our system. What we do have is a 12volt water pump, lighting throughout the building and charging for phones, tablets, etc.
Adding to a system is difficult but adding another system is easy. When time comes for a electric fridge I will likely add a separate system sized just for that.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 17 Dec 2015 06:15
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Quoting: smythejohn what about solar?
Have a look at what I got this spring, it's outlined in this Solar Planning for this spring thread on this forum.
Now, being that I am Canadian and our dollar having been battered since the spring, prices have definitely changed for the worse for us.
Something I discovered during my Solar Research is that in Ontario (and I assume most any other place) that has a Micro-Fit / Feed-in Tariff system to hydro will have this same issue... Companies that do such installs will charge Top Dollar (MSRP) for components and top dollar to install. Their twisted logic is that with rebates & incentives people will pay the higher rates because they are getting back funds in credits, rebates and then over the term, pay back from their feed-in. I approached a few local companies that do Micro-Fit installs and 3 of them were selling components (as I'm self installing) for full retail MSRP... One such quote hit 21,000.00 (for what I bought on my link provided) which, all in, came to just under 9,000.00
NB: My Panels are being installed on a pivoting rack (manual) which will allow me to adjust for Winter / Summer use. There are automatic tracking systems to do that for you and further optimize your power generation but they aren't cheap and were not in my budget.
IF Governments were genuinely interested in tackling Climate Change and Carbon Emission Reductions, they would drop the duties, levies, taxes on Solar equipment & components for at least 5 years... But they'd rather chuck out billions in grants, loans and foreign aid packages to other countries to clean up then to give up such a lucrative revenue stream for 5 years...
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