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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 6 Dec 2015 20:11
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I'm still mulling my plumbing. A well won't be an option for a while so I'll be using a cistern. Maybe always, not sure. There is rock not far below the soil on the mountain so wells can be expensive to drill unless I find a spring on my property -- and this IS an area that has abundant springs. But I digress.
I won't be using much water and the cistern will be fine for cold water. It's the hot water that's the devil in the details. I've decided that I'm not going to do a conventional/on-demand water heater. There are other good options for the uses I require, namely a daily shower and washing dishes, and I can use my woodstove and regular stove to heat water. And the sun in the summer.
Now, to my question -- Is there a way to have some sort of insulated metal or fiberglass vessel either inside the house or in my crawl space that I can easily fill with hot water and that I can plumb to my shower and bathroom and kitchen hot water fixtures?
I usually take my showers at night before bedtime and do my dishes in the evening, too. So, this vessel would only require one nightly fill-up and only need to be about 10 gallons.
I'm planning to use a Shur-Flo pump to bring the water from my cistern to my sinks. If I could find the type of vessel like that for hot water, would it require a second or different pump (maybe a submersible)?
Basically, could I make this work or would just using a portable hot shower, like the type I've been looking at, for showers and dishes, be simpler and my best bet?
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 6 Dec 2015 20:33
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You can get a holding tank, which is just like a tank water heater without the heater. They are used in buildings with central boilers to store hot water sometimes. So I think you could make this work with just a sureflow pump, you would need to figure out how you will fill the holding tank from wherever you heat the water. Perhaps the same pump, with a system of valves.
I think a propane on demand water heater will be a lot simpler, though.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 6 Dec 2015 21:04
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bldginsp
Yeah, the on demand water heater would be simpler, per se, but I have concerns about their durability, energy usage, and ability to raise the water temp enough in my situation. I haven't found one yet that meets all of those requirements well at present. But I do remain hopeful. 
Yep, filling the tank with the hot water is the problem. I could perhaps use something like a fire coil that connects to both a cold water source and an empty container for the hot water? Perhaps have a small cold water vessel simply for that purpose and fill THAT?
It would be pretty magic if I could make hot water using things I already have and store it for use. One fewer appliance to break down, use fuel, and require maintenance, you know?
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 6 Dec 2015 21:41
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Yes, I suppose if you have a reliable heat source already. In winter with the woodstove going you could heat water with that. There are some wood stoves that incorporate water heating chambers into the design, but not sure how you would transfer the water into the holding tank, and also, how long would it take that setup to fill the tank? Lot of issues to work out. In summer you could use solar water heating using the same water pipe arrangements they use for swimming pools. But I wonder how reliable it would be.
But you are an ingenious person who explores all the alternatives, so if anyone can make it work you can. Show us what you come up with!
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Don_P
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# Posted: 6 Dec 2015 21:41 - Edited by: Don_P
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If the storage tank is higher and close to the woodstove then a coil in the stove or its' stack can heat the water in the tank without a pump. Hot water rises, cold water sinks, it will form a self pumping loop keeping the water in the tank warm.
With any of these systems beware of steam, it is a bomb. Make sure you have adequate pressure relief valves in the system. Old wood cook stoves often had a water jacket and tank setup. Before my time just up the road a man was killed when he lit the stove one morning and the water jacket had frozen. The water could not circulate and created steam between plugs of ice, and then the water jacket exploded. Not to scare you, just go carefully.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 6 Dec 2015 21:45 - Edited by: bldginsp
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You know, they make little wood fired boilers for use with small steam engine powered boats. I wonder if one of those would make a good small cabin woodstove/water heater. Hmmmm......
http://www.reliablesteam.com/RSE/RSEboilers.html
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 6 Dec 2015 22:19
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bldginsp
Solar water heaters, with all of their pipes and such, are quite cumbersome and, yeah, I also wonder how well they work. My needs, gallon-wise, are so simple that I think it would likely be more efficient to set out a couple of covered 5-gallon buckets (painted black) of water and let the sun do its thing all day in the summer. And then pour that hot water into my insulated holding tank at night for use.
You're too kind, referring to me as ingenious. Actually, I'm mechanically stupid and am too aware of my limits, in this regard, lol. And I'm well aware of where I'll be living, with the likely periods of not being able to go into town for propane or having a delivery truck get to me in the winters. I'm planning and building with this in mind. I'll only need maybe 8 gallons of hot water daily, which isn't much, and doesn't require a separate appliance and fuel supply to obtain fairly easily, I hope. Especially in a small cabin and for one person. Totally different scenario for a larger home and a family!
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 6 Dec 2015 22:31
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Don_P
The fire coil I'm looking at has one end of the tube connected to the coil attached to the cold water tank and the other end to a second container where the heated water goes so it only completes one, slow circuit to heat the water and not a continuous loop.
I'm guessing that's a safety feature to prevent the type of disaster you described. If you want the water to be hotter after the one pass then you have to disconnect the tubing carefully and send that water through again.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 6 Dec 2015 22:41
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I looked into buying one of those old-fashioned wood-burning stove/oven/water heater units. They still sell them! They're a couple thousand dollars but I thought that if they take the place of a range, water heater, and wood stove then that would be worth it.
And then I though, wait. That would mean I'd have to heat up the whole cabin when it's 90 degrees in the summertime just to cook something and heat water. Um, no.
I saw fire coils for wood stoves on YouTube. You can make one yourself. HOWEVER, same deal -- those require a fire. The commercial fire coils can be used with a gas stove so they're usable in the summertime when there are burn bans on the mountain.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 6 Dec 2015 23:01
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If you are going to put commercial coils into a gas stove, you are effectively doing exactly what an on demand water heater does. Only difference is the on demand heater is easier to use and more efficient. Just saying.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 6 Dec 2015 23:30
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Solar water heating works well. I have a friend who gets all the hot water they need for "free" in summer. Spring and fall the solar pre heats the water enough so the propane only has to burn a small amount. In winter they use more propane but still get a good amount of preheat from the sun. Varies with climate, sun, etc.
Butler makes an interesting couple of products. The Solar Wand uses a heat exchange fluid with a rod/tube affair that fits into a standard storage tank. They also have a PV Wand that fits into a standard storage tank in a similar manner as the solar wand. It uses electrical power direct from 1500 watts worth of PV panels. None are cheap initially but operational costs are zero to low.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2015 00:37
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Quoting: bldginsp If you are going to put commercial coils into a gas stove, you are effectively doing exactly what an on demand water heater does. Only difference is the on demand heater is easier to use and more efficient. Just saying.
Yes, but I'm putting the coils into a stove that I'm already using to cook dinner so I'm fueling one appliance once to accomplish a few things. Food, dishes, shower. Similarly, in the winter when the wood stove is already fired up, the coil can go in there.
Basically, I cringe at the thought of yet another propane-using device that needs to be plumbed, installed, and vented with a big ole stack on the outside of the wall of the cabin, simply for one shower a day and dishwashing for one person.  It would be a no-brainer for a bigger place and more people.
Maybe I don't even need a holding tank at all for my use and portable is the way to go. I'm just trying to nail down the possibilities before the cabin is built and when it's cheapest/best to do these things -- in the construction.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2015 00:44
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Quoting: MtnDon Butler makes an interesting couple of products. The Solar Wand uses a heat exchange fluid with a rod/tube affair that fits into a standard storage tank. They also have a PV Wand that fits into a standard storage tank in a similar manner as the solar wand. It uses electrical power direct from 1500 watts worth of PV panels. None are cheap initially but operational costs are zero to low.
That is really cool. I'm planning on 960 watts of panels initially, 4 240 monocrystalline. I wonder if that would be enough to work with the short solar wand in a 20-gallon tank. I'll bet it would, for my use.
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NorthRick
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# Posted: 8 Dec 2015 18:03
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Using electricity generated from solar panels to heat water is likely the most expensive way to heat water. You would be much better off with a thermal solar panel to heat the water.
We only spend weekends at our cabin so heating water for showers is done at our house. Take a shower before we leave and after we get back.
For dishes, we simply heat water in a pot on the stove and use that. If you had a wood stove going you can keep a pot of water on it and have hot water all the time. For a shower you could rig a container and mix cold water with the hot water until you have the right temperature for a shower. Manual but simple.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 8 Dec 2015 18:19
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NorthRick
I like simple and prefer it. I ponder whether that's something I can do day after day, year after year, as I'll be living there full-time until the end of my days. Or if there's another simple, easier way that I can build into my cabin right off the bat? Hence, the plumbed-in holding tank idea I'm mulling.
I tend to agree; needing 1,000+ watts of solar panels just for hot water is excessive. The benefit of that, though, is it's a one-time expense and no ongoing need for fuel, moving parts that could fail, freeze up, etc. That system would outlive me AND my kid, most likely, lol.
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Smawgunner
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# Posted: 8 Dec 2015 19:08
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Maybe I missed it, but if you have electric for the Surflo, why not get a small 10 gallon electric hot water tank? I'm actually in the same boat,...not sure what I'm doing for water. A cistern for sure, but I'm lost from there.
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rockmtn
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# Posted: 8 Dec 2015 20:15
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Julie,
If you are already planning to install solar, than an electric element installed in a 20 Gal tank is a simple, easy, and long term economical way to go.
(1) The extra solar panels will extend the life of your batteries by providing more of your overall "standard" draws. This can have major cost savings over time
(2) The efficiency of heating with solar electric is at best ~15%. Thermal (with water pipes, etc) is far better. BUT the complexity of pipes, pumps, valves, etc is not inexpensive, and will require maintenance.
(3) Solar PV hot water heating works in cold weather-- in many cold locations you still get really clear power production days.
(4) you can configure so the solar panels always charge your batteries fully, then any extra power gets made into hot water.
(5) maintenance free for many (20-30) years;
(6) if you go with this approach you can tie into your cold water pump line and have simple (standard) plumbing; with each facet having a hot and cold line from one surflo pump.
We have done this approach (and also a heater loop with the wood stove, thermosiphon, for winter).
good luck!
E
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Just
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# Posted: 8 Dec 2015 21:21
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Yuno, a kettle full of hot water ,a wash pan , a bar of soap and a sponge, can get most any one clean enough to go to town ..
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2015 03:19
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Quoting: Smawgunner Maybe I missed it, but if you have electric for the Surflo, why not get a small 10 gallon electric hot water tank? I'm actually in the same boat,...not sure what I'm doing for water. A cistern for sure, but I'm lost from there
Electric water heaters are energy hogs. Yeah, I'll have solar power and I did look at even small elec. water heaters but, yikes, do they use the watts! Just not worth it.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2015 03:25
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rockmtn
You bring up some good points. Thanks for the info! I would really have to crunch numbers. I guess it gets back to whether I want to do an expensive, elaborate setup for a daily shower and dishes for one person. I'd like a simple way of storing heated hot water that I could plumb to my faucets but, barring that, if it's too expensive to achieve, it just might not be worth it, you know?
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2015 03:28
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Quoting: Just Yuno, a kettle full of hot water ,a wash pan , a bar of soap and a sponge, can get most any one clean enough to go to town ..
Most any dude. 
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2015 06:13
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Sorry but I have to say, when numbers are crunched down, the most efficient "fueled" Hot Water is with an On-Demand system... Pumping water aside, the On-Demand system only uses a trickle of power while monitoring water pressure, when you open the tap, the ignitor and gas valve open electrically... Propane to heat the water so there isn't a huge draw on electric power.
The unit sizing can do enough for a little cabin to a 4 Bedroom House with kids, laundry & the usual excesses of Urbanium.
The advantage of the On-Demand units too, is they are small, easier to locate centrally to your taps (keep the plumbing runs as short as you can for most efficiency).
I bought this one for our Cabin eccotemp fvi12 LP tankless water heater Even now that unit can be had for $365 direct from Eccotemp.
There are many brands out there some good, some great, some junk. Takagi from Japan is Extremely Good (Cadi vs Chevy) but a similar size to my Eccotemp is $1000.
Key thing on Water Heating... pre-filter the water for sediments and deposits which can wreak havoc on any water heating system and if the water is hard, then you have to consider that as well.
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Ontario lakeside
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2015 08:35
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We keep a large pot of water on the stove at all times when at the cabin in the winter. It humidifies the air and provides wash and shower water. If you are worried you could plumb in a pot filler over your wood stove and a removable intake line as well. Basically a open air hot water tank.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2015 17:10
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Ontario lakeside
I plan to do that much of the time, too! I wouldn't plumb it near the stove because I wouldn't be firing up the wood stove in the summer. I'd just heat up water on the gas range. Or outside in black containers using the sun!
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2015 17:39
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Steve_S
When I first started doing my research, I was most interested in the Tagaki JR. It had the best features, good reviews, and a good temperature rise -- about 45 degrees. I found it on Amazon for about $600. And then someone on the forum -- I think it was MtnDon or bldginsp pointed out the energy usage for it. Holy crap. It eats propane like nobody's business to get that temperature rise.
I looked into propane delivery. Holy crap again! My only option is AmeriGas and, in addition to the cost of the propane, they tack on all sorts of monthly charges. You can either install your own tank or rent from them. Another expense. I could have used a 100 lb. tank with the Tagaki and fill my own since there's an AmeriGas filling place in a town near the mountain but it would eat through that in days. So, bag that.
Then I looked at the EccoTemps. Much better propane efficiency, not as good a temperature rise. Not as good quality. Would it last a decade or so? Dunno.
But let's get back to that temperature rise. It wouldn't be a problem at all in the summer or fall. Spring and winter, it would be unless I preheated my water somehow. If I'm going to go through the process, expense, maintenance, and propane supply of having an on-demand water heater, then I want HOT showers year-round. Let's say, generously, that my cistern water in the winter would be 50 degrees even though it likely wouldn't be. A 45-degree temp rise would be 95 degrees; a 35 degree temp rise would be 85 degrees. That's not hot.
So that it would be hot, I thought I could have 20-gallon water tanks in my loft that could feed into the water heater line. Yeah, that would work, but it's adding complexity and expense ...
For one person. One nightly shower and one evening dish-washing. Does it make sense to do all of that for this small use? My conclusion was no, it doesn't. It would if I was building for a family and more usage. But I'm 51 and trying to simplify everything. I want a minimum of appliances that need "fed," and that can break down.
Now, in that vein, I also have Lupus and Crohn's Disease and can't go TOO rustic or make things too difficult. Hence, my quest to find an amenable solution I can live with contentedly for years to come. On a fixed income, in a place where, in the winters and spring, a propane truck may not be able to get to me at times. I can handle 20 lb. tanks for my LP range and hybrid generator and lay in a supply for the winter, no problem. But I want to limit the number of LP-using appliances so I don't get stuck and so that everything I DO have can serve more than one purpose, if needed, you know?
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