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Pak713
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# Posted: 4 Sep 2023 20:05
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Hey everyone! New here. I need some opinions on an idea I have. We have a small cabin in northern Michigan. It’s 14x20 and it’s well insulated as far as the walls and attic area. The floor is un insulated. In the summertime mornings it’s pretty chilly in there and I’m guessing it’s due to the floor being un insulated. My kids and grand babies stay in there in the summer and I’m trying to come up with a way to insulate the floor. We inherited the cabin so it was built prior to us owning it. The problem is I can’t access the underside of the floor to physically insulate it. The floor is framed and then the framing of the floor is sitting on 4x4’s and those are sitting on cement blocks. There’s not enough room to crawl under it at all. So I’m thinking of something to put on top of the sub floor inside to help with the issue. Maybe bubble foil or flooring underlayment? I have a whole roll of synthetic roofing underlayment too maybe that would work? Or heavy duty visqueen? Eventually whatever I put on top the sub floor will be floored over top with indoor outdoor carpet. I gutted the cabin last year as it was due for a makeover inside. Currently there is just indoor outdoor carpet laying inside on top of the sub floor. Any advice or ideas are appreciated in advance.
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 4 Sep 2023 20:19
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Use 1" or more of styro over the subfloor and install new floor over it.
Doors/thresholds will need 'adjusting'.
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 4 Sep 2023 21:01 - Edited by: ICC
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Forget the bubble stuff. Not worth the effort. Use XPS sheet foam as gcrank1 suggested. The blue or pink stuff. Doors will need attention for certain. 1" thickness will make a difference that can be felt. I'd use 2" if the ceilings are a true 8 foot, but that is just my desire for more of everything.
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travellerw
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# Posted: 4 Sep 2023 21:52
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Quoting: gcrank1 Use 1" or more of styro over the subfloor and install new floor over it. Doors/thresholds will need 'adjusting'.
This is the solution.. Even better if you can put 1.5", but most doors can't be adjusted that much.
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Brettny
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# Posted: 5 Sep 2023 09:53
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How is the foundation constructed? That low in snow county can be moisture and rot.
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Pak713
Member
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# Posted: 5 Sep 2023 18:18
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The floor joist, 4x4’s and sub floor is all treated wood. There is no foundation. It’s a framed floor that sits on 4x4’s that have been sitting on blocks the whole time the structure has been there. The Amish built it and brought it in probably close to 30 years ago. It was my grand parents place. Never had an issue with any rot.
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travellerw
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# Posted: 6 Sep 2023 00:49
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Just further to my post. We built like gcrank posted, but with 1.5" of foam (all the door jams were built to accommodate the extra 2.25 inches (1.5" of foam, 3/4" of second subfloor.).
At -40 we walk around in our socks. The the cabin is elevated 18-20" with no skirting.
As a second bonus, we screwed and glued the foam/subfloor sandwich and got a SUPER stiff floor. ZERO bounce at all.
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Tim_Ohio
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# Posted: 6 Sep 2023 12:33
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How about using a heavy carpet padding under the areas you install carpet. I think this would make a difference.
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Pak713
Member
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# Posted: 6 Sep 2023 17:12
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Tim funny you say that because that’s what I may do. A friend of mine has 1/4 thick fanfold insulation that I could get from him. I may use that, then padding, then the carpet. The 1†rigid board is also a good idea but I have a small bathroom in the cabin with a toilet and wasn’t really wanting to have to raise the toilet flange and everything. I’m not using carpet in the bathroom either. When I say I gutted it, it had lauan board over the sub floor with stick on tile on top of that. I ripped all that out, gutted the bathroom except the toilet, the main area had hacked up paneling on the walls, ripped that out and re did some of the electrical and insulation as well. Re did the exterior, new roof, soffits and re stained the exterior. The cabin was neglected for some years before I got it so it was definitely in need of some tlc. I wish it was further along than it is but it works for extra guest and/or hunting season. We have our travel trailer on the property as well but I usually bring that home in October and then stay in the cabin for hunting season.
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 6 Sep 2023 18:58
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After all that bullwork I can understand a reluctance to 'make more work', but popping the 't' is not that big a deal and may really need to be done anyway. You will know that when you pop it and see how bad things are under there.
As the ad used to say,"Just Do It" 
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Pak713
Member
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# Posted: 6 Sep 2023 20:23
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Toilet has been removed and set back down already. I’m not saying it’s a lot of work. I’m saying I’m not sure that I wanna go that route.
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ICC
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# Posted: 6 Sep 2023 20:27
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There are waxless toilet seals that allow toilet installation over floors that have been raised without the need to replace the toilet flange. Offhand, I am not sure how much extra floor thickness they can handle, but it may be worth investigating. Perhaps it may be necessary to make the extra floor thickness less than the other room floors.
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 6 Sep 2023 21:00
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Could consider that for the amount of real time spent in a b-room that insulating the floor isnt that important?
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travellerw
Member
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# Posted: 6 Sep 2023 22:47
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I would caution about counting on carpet pad(underlay). I thought about it, but when I looked up the R values I was shocked at how low they are. I never found a pad over R2.0. The best I found was R1.75 at 1/2".. So for 1" of padding that is only R3.5. Not nothing, but still very low compared to closed cell foam (R value of 6.5-7.0 per inch). Of course you could do 1/2" of closed cell, then carpet pad. Lots of quality closed cell can be installed right under carpet (pink Foamular brand is one). Best of both worlds.
A good closed cell also provides a thermal break so you don't get the "cold zones" where a floor joist may run. Carpet pad is not closed cell so doesn't give that advantage.
Another option is one of the preman tile systems you can buy. Like Barricade insulated subfloor. They are about 1" thick and they do work, but only about 3.5 of R value. It provides the thermal break, but has about the same R value as carpet pad. Plus the price.. Tough to swallow.
If it was me and based on your description.. I would look at a 1/2" foam EVERYWHERE with carpet pad/carpet in some areas and hardwood/laminate/vinyl tile in other areas (like bathroom). It won't be super warm and you might need slippers on very cold days, but it will be worlds better.
1/2" ply or OSB on top (of the foam) will add some R value and another thermal break, but you may not have the room for doors/toilets, ect....
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Brettny
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# Posted: 7 Sep 2023 07:30
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Closed cell foam is prob actualy quite a bit cheaper even if you need to put another subfloor down and moderately price flooring. Good thick carpets arnt cheap and they are also a wear item.
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 7 Sep 2023 12:24
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Are up hooked to grid?
If so, maybe you could do a heated floor when you are there?
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Pak713
Member
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# Posted: 7 Sep 2023 14:45
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Yeah we have electricity.
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spencerin
Member
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# Posted: 8 Sep 2023 21:57
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This would be a lot more work up front, but since it's on blocks, can you raise the cabin a few courses of blocks to where you could then crawl under it and better insulate the floor? Or, if not that, can you add skirting? With it being that close to the ground, I bet that would make a noticeable difference.
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Pak713
Member
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# Posted: 9 Sep 2023 07:20 - Edited by: Pak713
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That could one day happen because we actually have a whole bunch of block up there. On the property is the 14x20 cabin, a 24x32 gambrel style barn and there was a 33x77 modular home at one time. The foundation for the modular is still there but when my grandfather passed, the family sold the modular. So we have a 33x77 by 4.5-5 ft hole in the ground. I’d like to one day either build on it but only use half of it or take out as many block from the foundation as I could and then backfill it and build a barn there one day because we could use the storage.
The 24x32 gambrel style barn, my brother built a wall in garage part of it, half way across and put a kitchen and a bathroom down there. So right now we have limited garage space. It’s like a multi family property.
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