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Vince P
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# Posted: 22 Dec 2014 13:16
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After a lengthy multi-month process, I finally sold my cabin yesterday. Having put so much of myself into that place, I spent a bit of time with the new owner to make sure that he understood every detail about the systems and conveniences I built and in the end, I felt good about his passion and appreciation for all of the detail I've put into it over the years. I'm happy to know that he'll be taking care of it.
Lessons learned
Distance: While I was willing to do the 9 hour round trip when I was a bit younger, the older I get the less willing I am to spend substantial time behind the wheel.
Security: Unless I am living in the cabin full time, I would expect at some point to have a break-in. This was a major consideration when searching for property and I chose to be closer to my full-time neighbors than being more remote. Nevertheless, I had a break-in early on which started this well-worn thread from over six years ago: http://www.small-cabin.com/forum/1_75_0.html
After that, I installed an alarm that ran off my battery bank and signed up for occasional inspections by local law enforcement (I doubt they ever did any). I never had another problem, but I still don't believe that an absentee owner can ever expect that someone won't find their place.
Electric:
I wired the cabin for lights and outlets to be powered by either a battery bank or generator. Using the generator worked great... albeit mine was a bit loud. The battery bank, while a great idea in theory, presented a lot of problems over the years. In the future, I think I would prefer a propane lantern for lighting (love the hiss) and bring a charged car battery with inverter back and forth from home for plug-in conveniences when the generator's not running. Other lessons:
1. Smallish, trickle charge solar panels rarely work well for very long and in some cases they actually discharged the battery (!) With snow covering them least 5 months out of the year, the winter charge that is so crucial to keeping the batteries from freezing in the sub-zero temps just wasn't there.
2. Battery placement. My battery bank was under the cabin, so access was a hassle for sure. If the cabin is big enough, an indoor placement might work as long as they are vented when charging.
3. AC vs. DC. If I did do battery bank again, I would do 12V lighting as a separate circuit and another circuit for the AC inverter power to the outlets.
Insulation:
This seemingly no-brainer option is not something I would do again for two big reasons:
1. Despite the tight construction, my cabin had mice... wood shrinks somewhat with time and seams widen allowing them in. Once a few of them got into the insulation, they built nests and soon after that the odors became noticeable. At one point I had to pull apart walls and ceilings to replace the smelly insulation, but this was only a temporary fix. Trying to trap them by lethal or non-lethal means improved things for just a few days at best. Finding and addressing places where they would enter, was also futile, because they would just gnaw a new hole.
2. While insulation keeps the heat in, on very cold days it could take an entire day to get the temperature up to comfort. This is not a good option for a weekend trip where we are spending a good deal of time inside. The thermal mass of 7-inch thick walls works good for full-time living, but not for my weekend cabin in the woods.
Next time, I'd opt for just leaving as open studs walls over insulated walls. M ice have fewer options to build smelly nests and a woodstove in a small cabin will work great as long as the walls/contents are not substantial enough that they require hours to heat up.
Driveway mud:
My driveway to the cabin was about ΒΌ mile long. Siting of the driveway was key to avoid most of the muddy areas and strategic placement of rocks/gravel/sticks worked OK sometimes, but better to have a dump truck deliver gravel that's several inches deep is the best option for problem areas.
A high clearance 4x4 vehicle, although I had a few over the years, is a must that I would not do without again... winter or summer.
What's next?
My preference at this point is to keep things at least semi-mobile. A RV trailer would be the most obvious option, but I've been toying with the idea of a cabin I can build at home in panel form and then trailer the components to the cabin site where I can assemble on pier blocks in a day or disassemble if I decided I wanted a different location. I've seen commercial kits for sale, but I'm wondering if anyone on this site has already done a DIY version?
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Wilbour
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# Posted: 22 Dec 2014 15:00
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Good advise.
It's through failure we have wisdom.
Luck is an accident waiting to happen.
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RiverCabin
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# Posted: 22 Dec 2014 15:53
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Thank you for this great post. I hope many new cabin builders/planners read this and avoid future regrets.
You raise a great point about distance. Although it's nice to have a remote cabin, it is a great hindrance on spending quality time there. I know I love the fact that I can get from home to cabin in thirty minutes.
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creeky
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# Posted: 22 Dec 2014 17:59
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Vince that was a thoughtful and interesting post.
You and I are doing things differently as I'm out here full time. So. Different circumstance for sure. For full timers, I'd add.
Hence: (see albeit)
Distance: My distance to shopping is 20-40 minutes. An hour to a big town. This is okay.
Security: My neighbor is a thief. Just came with the property. I made loud noises to neighbors and eventually had to call the cops. No charges but things settled down. A local insurer can help a lot. If you're paying someone local to insure your property ...
Electric: I have probably the biggest most complex and well designed (cough cough) solar system on this site. If you're going to live off grid you need electricity. The more the merrier. A good solar system saves money on appliances, services etc. Don't stint. Make this a good part of your budget. I've spent 7k doing it myself with a dad who was an electrician and a solid science background. Plan to spend at least this much if not double (remember, full time off grid). With the new tech you can do wonders (better batteries, high voltage dc). Forget "ye olde solar." Today you can build a system that will last ... all components ... for 10 years with virtually no maintenance. Don't settle for less.
And, for full timers again, forget dc. Go ac. Just to save time and money. And to put it in a bit of perspective. I know folks who have spent $2.5k on a fridge that uses propane at the cost of 1.25/day. that's a lot of $$$ for better batteries/modern inverter/charger.
Insulation ... :
A pound of insulation is 10 bucks worth of heating. I have improved my insulation from building to building (up to 4 now) and each one improves in comfort and decreases in energy spent annually. Seal. Insulate. Poly iso / xps / roxul are your best friends. And I personally have my eye on the new vacuum insulations. The world is changing folks. Make change your ally.
and rodents ... : First off. The local critters are your friends. Watch and learn. Having said that. Be ruthless with mice. They are evil pooping diseased destroyers. But everybody else is your buddy. My moles are just funny. My. hah. I love the skunks. They eat mice. Plus they are so dang vain. Remind me of a few women friends, always fluffing their hair (oh I am so in trouble). Raccoons are hilarious. And very friendly treated as friends. Don't p*** them off. But seriously, a raccoon can be a very good friend. Coyotes are shy. Groundhogs are just wonderful. Birds. What can I say. I have had many folks come by and say, gee, where are all the bugs. I point out the nests ... babies to feed. Need I say more.
I also recommend, unless you have a barn with poultry/critters. No cats. See birds and raccoons.
Driveway: each circumstance is different. but for soft soil, road tarp under a good crushed gravel bed. can't beat it.
What's next?
I live in a cold climate. So I hate RVs. They're flimsy. Stinky. Cra& materials. And you see those "off grid small houses." I laugh. I mean okay, they're built on wheels, but they weigh the moon. Seriously, I saw one that weighed in at over 20,000 lbs recently. It's on all the "small home" sites. Build site specific.
But I'm here full time. I don't travel.
My next property will be a) warmer climate. b) more remote. Solar is so much more robust that when I started out. c) built with local materials as much as possible. My last building was done with amish lumber sourced within 40 miles. A nail gun, a box of nails, and two years of collected recycled insulation was what it took to build a 10x14 bedroom. A building that takes a dollar a day to keep warm for 4 months of the year.
Vince. For a portable cabin, see canvas tents.
I'd go on but I hear mice in the attic. Time to change the bait.
Best of the season to all.
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Vince P
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# Posted: 22 Dec 2014 18:46
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Creeky,
Thanks for the feedback. I can surely understand how a full-timer would have an inverse opinion of a weekend cabin owner.
Not sure I view any of my lessons-learned as failures, but just preferences now that I've been there, done that for eight years, but as RiverCabin said, its definitely a hindrance on spending quality time there when you need to travel so far a distance... and that is what eventually made me decide to sell.
I spent most of my time at the cabin working on the cabin instead of relaxing, even when I didn't need to... so I guess in retrospect it was really more of a hobby than a place to unwind.
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turkeyhunter
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# Posted: 22 Dec 2014 20:39
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Quoting: RiverCabin You raise a great point about distance. Although it's nice to have a remote cabin, it is a great hindrance on spending quality time there. I know I love the fact that I can get from home to cabin in thirty minutes
VERY TRUE~~I have one camp 30 min away/ use all the time WEEKLY or at least every 10 days....and one camp 24+ HOURS away...I used it one last year...
...thinking of selling it now!!! ( I can rent a cabin for a month when I stay in the summer ~~nicer cheaper and BETTER than my northern Maine camp for a LOT LESS than I pay in taxes ( my property taxes just doubled after doing work on it last fall )/electric bill/insurance & upkeep ETC / adds up...with that being said--I love my local cabin...going down tomorrow!!!!
GREAT post Vince P....we learn valuable lesson's by doing for sure!!!
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turkeyhunter
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# Posted: 22 Dec 2014 20:49
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Quoting: Vince P I spent most of my time at the cabin working on the cabin instead of relaxing, even when I didn't need to... so I guess in retrospect it was really more of a hobby than a place to unwind.
this is so true with my unfinished Maine camp...I hate going on a month vacation with air compressor/nail guns and a truck full of tools. Takes the fun out of being on vacation @ "UPTACAMP"....
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Scott G
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# Posted: 22 Dec 2014 21:21
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Great thread.
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creeky
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# Posted: 23 Dec 2014 10:45
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Hey Vince. I don't think we have inverse opinions. I see mine as added detail ... shouldn't have used the word "differently" maybe "also" or ...
I'm with you and Wilbour on lessons learned. How can you grow if you don't try. In my opinion, the real mistake is getting so caught up in thinking something has to be perfect it never gets done. And many decisions are six of one 1/2 dozen of another anyway. So. Great post.
I'll go with the too many chores voices too. I took this summer off from building, tweaking, adding, even fixing. I have a 1/2 finished floor in my wash house as a result. But it was the best summer I've had out here.
Something about stopping and smelling the flowers...
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Smawgunner
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# Posted: 23 Dec 2014 10:46
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I'm rethinking insulation in the attic of my circa 1870 log cabin. It would be tough to seal everything up in my case.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 23 Dec 2014 11:07 - Edited by: MtnDon
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Quoting: Vince P 2. While insulation keeps the heat in, on very cold days it could take an entire day to get the temperature up to comfort. This is not a good option for a weekend trip where we are spending a good deal of time inside. The thermal mass of 7-inch thick walls works good for full-time living, but not for my weekend cabin in the woods.
I have to disagree with that statement. Our cabin has 5 1/2" thick, fiberglass batt filled walls with 5/8 gyproc on the inside. It sits unheated in winter. When we arrive in winter we light the wood stove and the propane wall heater. The air temperature inside rises at about 20 F per hour. Most of the cabins thermal mass is the furniture and contents, plus tile floor and the 5/8 gyproc. The insulation is not really counted as a part of the thermal mass. If the walls are 7 inch thick logs then they would count as thermal mass and would work against your warming up the place.
The very first winter we only had a thin R13 in the ceiling. That took much longer to warm up. I can not imagine using it in winter with zero insulation. Air sealing is a big part of making the insulation work for you. If it is not air sealed well the place will be much colder.
Our insulation also works for us in summer, keeping us cool. If we open windows in late afternoon and evening we cool down nicely. Closing up in the morning keeps the interior comfortable as the exterior temperature rises into the 80's and 90's at times. I suppose everyone must make their own choice but I for one have no interest in living in what would amount to a wood tent (with no insulation). Not even part time.
I totally agree with the distance thing. I have a friend here who has a great place; few neighbors, more elk than neighbors actually, wonderful quiet and great scenery, great fishing. But it's a 4 1/2 hour drive on a good day. He gets there a few times a year if he's lucky.
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Vince P
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# Posted: 23 Dec 2014 12:59
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Quoting: MtnDon I have to disagree with that statement.
Hey Don,
Not sure what part you're in disagreement with and you may be correct in the thermal mass vs. furniture/contents, but my real world data was something like this:
-arrive at cabin late morning and its 10 deg F outside.
-interior of cabin is 5 deg F... due to insulation.
-start wood stove and interior reaches about low 60 deg F by about 9:00 PM.
-next day we need to leave by early afternoon, so we had about 15-16 hours of comfortable temps.
We had high ceilings which played a role and I suspect that placement of the wood stove may not have been ideal... but placement was limited due to the loft and stairs. In the Summer the cabin remained comfortably cool.
At any rate, the winter heating was a minor issue. The real problem with the insulation was the mice and it was bad enough to make me rather be a little colder on winter nights.
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Vince P
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# Posted: 23 Dec 2014 13:09 - Edited by: Vince P
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One other point I'd add to this thread that pushed me to my decision to sell was something turkeyhunter alluded to.
Taxes.
Holy hell, taxes.
When I bought my vacant property 8 years ago, my annual taxes were a whopping $48/year. After I built my "seasonal" camp, they shot up to well over $3500/year.
Yes, over $3500, plus insurance, plus maintenance, repairs, etc. for a place, that in the end we used once a year. Of course had it been closer, we would've been there more and it might have been worth it (there's that distance issue again).
The sad part is that my full time neighbors were paying less than me and these were average sized houses with full utilities, etc. I attribute this travesty to the New York State government, who for years has literally driven people out of state with absurd taxes.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 23 Dec 2014 14:08
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Quoting: Vince P Not sure what part you're in disagreement with
Just disagreeing with the premise that a cabin was better off uninsulated. Yes, tall ceilings and lofts exacerbate the problem of heating from cold. But w/o insulation, especially in the roof/ceiling the heat just pours out.
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Ruggles
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# Posted: 23 Dec 2014 23:13
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I looked at kits as well and gave up based on the cost. I ended up designing my own "kit" and built the walls in sections small enough to fit on my 5X10 flatbed trailer. Hauled them down to the property and built the floor on-site then put the "kit" together. Didn't design it to take apart but you're welcome to the drawings I did in powerpoint if you'd like them.
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creeky
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# Posted: 24 Dec 2014 12:38
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Smawgunner. I've become a huge fan of insulation on the outside of the building. Funny how much our understanding of insulation has changed in the last few years.
I don't know how exterior insulation would work with your log cabin. As I understand it log cabins have a low R value, but a high thermal mass. So once you heat them they are easy to keep warm and slow to cool. Great for full time use but not so good for just showing up for a weekend.
Vince, that is nuts. Re: taxes. Is there a tax authority you can contact? I had a huge battle with my tax lords over my last place (and lost) but at least I tried. I had a neighbor two doors down with more property, a bigger house, paying less tax. Riddle me that. So I complained. Guess what. They raised my neighbors (both sides, all the doors down) taxes and left mine the same. Guess how popular I was.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 24 Dec 2014 12:56
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Quoting: creeky I've become a huge fan of insulation on the outside of the building.
So am I. So much so I when I re-sided the house I added 3 inches of polyiso to the 2x4 framed walls. It does complicate the window and doors a little but nothing that can't be done.
Taxes; NYS is the state with the highest taxes of all kinds.
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Vince P
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# Posted: 24 Dec 2014 13:22
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Quoting: creeky Vince, that is nuts. Re: taxes. Is there a tax authority you can contact?
I contacted a tax attorney or two. Apparently the more fuss you make, the more difficult they (the assessor) will make it for you... as you seem to have found out.
I did win one of these cases once, but that was because it was a property with a pre-existing dwelling and my purchase price was 25% less that the tax assessment.
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beachman
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# Posted: 24 Dec 2014 17:10
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Having read through this thread I have a few comments. Taxes - I got hit with triple my former taxes in 2014. I have no land access and no power. I got in a "friendly" argument with the assessors and in the end got a substantial reduction. Still too high for basically no services but manageable. Our old place was riddled with mice and this thread about the smells came home to me. There is nothing worse. Knock on wood, but after three years, no mice in the new place and it is fully insulated. It does take 7 or 8 hrs to heat up from a frozen start but Don's comments about thermal mass make a lot of sense. Without insulation we would perish in the winter and be mighty uncomfortable in the spring and fall - and burn way too much wood in the process.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 25 Dec 2014 09:52 - Edited by: MtnDon
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Quoting: MtnDon Quoting: creeky I've become a huge fan of insulation on the outside of the building. So am I. So much so I when I re-sided the house I added 3 inches of polyiso to the 2x4 framed walls. It does complicate the window and doors a little but nothing that can't be done.
In fact if I was to build another cabin I would do the walls and insulation quite different from the 2x6 and fiberglass batts we did use. #1, I'd go with 2x4 wall studs. #2, I'd use 16" OC and not the 24" OC we used with the 2x6. Then I'd leave out the infill insulation altogether and use 2 layers of 2" Polyisocyanurate rigid foam on the exterior, staggered and well taped. The 16" spacing would permit 1/2 drywall rather than the 5/8 the 24 needed for non wavy walls. The foam on the exterior covers the studs so you don't need wider spacing to increase the effective r value of infill insulation... no thermal bridge.
Foundation. I would not do piers. I'd do a full perimeter footing and stem wall foundation; either concrete, concrete block or permanent wood foundation. I like concrete slabs a lot but I also like the idea of a crawl space because then I would bury a water cistern right under the cabin before the cabin went up. That would help keep it from freezing and the crawl space would give access to the manhole if / when needed.
I'd install lightning protection from the git go.
Merry Christmas!!!!
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FishSeeker
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# Posted: 6 Mar 2015 17:23
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Good info in this thread. My wife and I bought our off grid cabin last year outside the little town of Marblemount, Washington on the Cascade River. It's a Lindal cedar built in 1979 on a concrete foundation w/ crawlspace.The cabin is well insulated w/ 640sf downstairs and 350sf loft w/ 20 ft ceiling. When I arrive on a cold weekend I fire up the Lopi woodstove and I'll be at 65 degrees within the hour. Once its at temp it doesnt take anything to keep it toasty all weekend. I also have a thermal electric fan that's sits on the stove and draws the heat down from the ceiling to keep the heat even.
My place is 90 miles from my house which takes me 2 hours so I spend at least 2 weekends a month year round and I'll have a couple weeks in the summer. Being in Washington State and where my cabin is I wouldn't get much direct solar charging time so I have a battery shed w/8 - 6volt batteries and a 2000w inverter to run my lights and TV/DVD setup. My appliances are all gas so it doesnt take much battery juice to run everything for a weekend so I charge up my batteries w/ my generator before I go home and everything's ready for the next weekend.
Luckily I have supplied water and the septic system is grandfathered in because I'm too near the water to ever get permitted for a new one and I don't think I'd ever sell my wife on the idea that we'd have to use an outhouse.
Only saw a mouse 1 time and found a small space by the crawlspace door and sealed that better and have never had a problem since. Love reading other stories of what people have in their cabins.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 6 Mar 2015 19:56
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Vince, full footing/stemwall can keep mice away. I have had zero mice inside my cabin, built it in 08. Do not have an outside crawlspace access, use the inside trap door. Besides, it give you loads more secure storage.
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SE Ohio
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# Posted: 7 Mar 2015 16:02
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Quoting: Vince P 1. Smallish, trickle charge solar panels rarely work well for very long and in some cases they actually discharged the battery (!) With snow covering them least 5 months out of the year, the winter charge that is so crucial to keeping the batteries from freezing in the sub-zero temps just wasn't there.
Don't want to hijack the thread, but...
Without a diode in the circuit, a solar panel can discharge a battery/battery bank when the panel is shaded or in the dark. I added a diode in series with each of my (Harbor Freight) solar panels to prevent this, which drops the forward voltage a tad, but saves you overall. Diodes were purchased and delivered for less than $3. Great investment! Some panels come with diode installed, which makes sense 'cause they cost pennies.
My solar panel setup is adjustable and they are set at about 10 degrees from vertical for winter. Steep angle, little snow accumulation. Got enough charge that my batteries keep topped up. I don't really tax my batteries much, weekend use only with low current stereo and lighting. I'm using AC wiring to deliver 12 V DC.
I do appreciate having cabin insulation, especially when I don't have to stoke the fire before morning. When it is uncomfortably cold at 3 AM, it's no fun stoking a fire. If outside temp isn't severely cold, insulation keeps us warm for a good 8-10 hours.
Back from my digression- I'm on the same page on many issues. Taxes and other costs can make a property more expensive than renting the occasional cabin! And long drives = less usage. I'm about 2 hours from my 5 acre plot. Minimal drive, minimal acreage, minimal taxes. I have great use of the nearby state forest, more acreage to explore with statewide-shared tax burden. Thanks, fellow Ohioans!
I do find that owning a cabin tends to dampen my wanderlust. I cannot cost justify exploring other areas and renting a cabin when I have a paid-for cabin. An RV or tent offers much freedom over property. Now trying to find a place where you don't hear other folks early in the morning or late at night (think campground) is another story. I like canoe-camping, 'cause we can often find a nice private spot for only the price of the outfitter that drops us off and spots our car at the takeout point.
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