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Small Cabin Forum / Cabin Construction / Foam Insulation
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mark11
Member
# Posted: 16 Dec 2022 11:09 - Edited by: mark11
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Im looking to put additional insulation on the inside of the logs before I add tongue & groove.

I was thinking of adding 1" rigid foam then add tongue and groove on top.

Similar to the image attached.

Do I strap it and then add tongue and groove? Or just add foam board then just staple directly into logs ?

Anyone done this before ?
inside wall
inside wall
wall system
wall system


Brettny
Member
# Posted: 16 Dec 2022 12:10
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I wouldnt to either. I would put the 1in foam directly on the logs and screw furring strips through the foam into the logs.

Aklogcabin
Member
# Posted: 17 Dec 2022 10:13
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We are doing something similar to our new home. 2" pinkboard on the inside. The ridgid insulation will make a good thermal break. I will install 1x3 lathe boards for nailers installed over the insulation where the studs fall for nailers.
May I suggest putting the topcoat on the TnG before installing so that back gets sealed also . Will help with wood movement.
That will look real nice

curious
Member
# Posted: 17 Dec 2022 14:13
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No need to use studs in between the foam sheets as you show. Fit the foam sheets against the inside of the wall, butt the edges and tape if you want the best air tightness. There are round plastic washers that can be used with screws to hold the panels in place while you work.

As was suggested you can use 1x4 boards secured vertically over the foam with screws that go thru to the studs. Then fasten the T&G to that in the usual manner with nailing thru the tongues.

Staining and applying at least one coat of clearcoat before installing the T&G is a great idea. Sometimes when T&G is stained or painted after installation and the wood dries out more there can be color gaps in the v-joints of the T&G.

It may be worth your while to go to 2" foam. ???
Two layers with the seams staggered make for better air sealing but may increase the cost.

mark11
Member
# Posted: 19 Dec 2022 12:49
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Quoting: Brettny
I wouldnt to either. I would put the 1in foam directly on the logs and screw furring strips through the foam into the logs.

For the furring strips - do you do every 16 in ? Also is 1in enough you think ?

mark11
Member
# Posted: 19 Dec 2022 12:52
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Quoting: Aklogcabin
We are doing something similar to our new home. 2" pinkboard on the inside. The ridgid insulation will make a good thermal break. I will install 1x3 lathe boards for nailers installed over the insulation where the studs fall for nailers.
May I suggest putting the topcoat on the TnG before installing so that back gets sealed also . Will help with wood movement.
That will look real nice


Forgot to mention I have log 6x8 logs as walls. So when nailing through the boards would go directly into the log ? Also is 2" too much if I already have logs ? I was thinking more of half inch foam then T&G

mark11
Member
# Posted: 19 Dec 2022 12:53
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Quoting: curious
No need to use studs in between the foam sheets as you show. Fit the foam sheets against the inside of the wall, butt the edges and tape if you want the best air tightness. There are round plastic washers that can be used with screws to hold the panels in place while you work.

As was suggested you can use 1x4 boards secured vertically over the foam with screws that go thru to the studs. Then fasten the T&G to that in the usual manner with nailing thru the tongues.

Staining and applying at least one coat of clearcoat before installing the T&G is a great idea. Sometimes when T&G is stained or painted after installation and the wood dries out more there can be color gaps in the v-joints of the T&G.

It may be worth your while to go to 2" foam. ???
Two layers with the seams staggered make for better air sealing but may increase the cost.

The wall are 6x8 logs so there are not studs.

Brettny
Member
# Posted: 19 Dec 2022 15:43
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Quoting: mark11
For the furring strips - do you do every 16 in ? Also is 1in enough you think

16in will work. 1x3 strips would be fine. I would use at least 1in foam. It's not the kind of thing you want to do over and 1in will give you about r6.

MJH
Member
# Posted: 19 Dec 2022 15:44
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Quoting: mark11
The wall are 6x8 logs so there are not studs.



I'm curious... Why do you want to cover them?

Aklogcabin
Member
# Posted: 20 Dec 2022 09:06
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The more insulation the better I guess. Just wondering about a vapor barrier. Don't want moisture trapped in the walls. The insulation will be a moisture retarder. If the seams are taped it should keep most moisture away from the logs and hold out any air leaks better. Also open n closed cell ridgid insulation. My preference would be the closed cell, pink or blue. Open cell such as the white bead stuff can attract mold easier also. You can purchase 1x3 lathe fairy inexpensive. Nail into the logs. Maybe measure out where the log is widest to get best nailing. The plastic cap nails should be fine. Good luck n have fun

mark11
Member
# Posted: 21 Dec 2022 10:29
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Quoting: MJH
I'm curious... Why do you want to cover them?


Just to create extra insulation right behind T&G

mark11
Member
# Posted: 21 Dec 2022 10:32
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Quoting: Aklogcabin
The more insulation the better I guess. Just wondering about a vapor barrier. Don't want moisture trapped in the walls. The insulation will be a moisture retarder. If the seams are taped it should keep most moisture away from the logs and hold out any air leaks better. Also open n closed cell ridgid insulation. My preference would be the closed cell, pink or blue. Open cell such as the white bead stuff can attract mold easier also. You can purchase 1x3 lathe fairy inexpensive. Nail into the logs. Maybe measure out where the log is widest to get best nailing. The plastic cap nails should be fine. Good luck n have fun


I would say the foam would be the vapor barrier but Im not really making this air tight as its mostly just to stop any air drift from log seams(if any). The logs should be tight enough since they lock.
Are you saying that moisture would accumulate behind the rigid foam ?

curious
Member
# Posted: 21 Dec 2022 12:38 - Edited by: curious
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For insulating like this only XPS or polyiso sheet foam should be used. Not the white beadboard. And polyiso is not the best choice for a climate with more cold weather than hot weather. Blue or pink (XPS) is best in cold performance.

Quoting: mark11
Are you saying that moisture would accumulate behind the rigid foam ?


Is this for full-time use or part-time?

If the inside foam sheets are not sealed well enough to act as a very good vapor barrier there is the chance that the wood surface next to the foam sheet might stay cold enough for moisture to condense on the cold wood. This is probably most likely to happen when used part-time, but that could still be a potential problem in full-time heating depending on how cold it gets outside, how moist the interior air gets, how well the panels are sealed (seams and top/bottom edges), etc. That is why two layers with staggered seams are better for air sealing and making a better vapor barrier.

If that wood log wall is a true 6" thick and is typical softwood timber the best expected R-vlaue of the wood would be about R8. Slightly less if an actual thickness of 5-1/2". For today's construction that is not very much. One can get better with a standard 2x4 stud framed wall.

mark11
Member
# Posted: 21 Dec 2022 16:16
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Quoting: curious
Is this for full-time use or part-time?

Yes full time and have radiant heat installed under joists. It does get very cold outside. Im in ZONE 6.

I was hoping not to use vapor barrier as I thought the rigid foam board would be the actual vapor barrier that goes directly into the logs then strap it for T&G.

Brettny
Member
# Posted: 21 Dec 2022 17:47
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Quoting: mark11
I was hoping not to use vapor barrier as I thought the rigid foam board would be the actual vapor barrier that goes directly into the logs then strap it for T&G.

Foam is a vapor barrier when you seal it up. Tape where the pieces meet and I would use caned foam every where else.

This also gives you the ability to re wire the place so I would look into that.

Aklogcabin
Member
# Posted: 22 Dec 2022 09:37 - Edited by: Aklogcabin
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Technically the foam is considered a retarder. I does allow a very small amount of moisture to pass. But minimal. Curious is correct. If air can leak moisture can travel. The tape is inexpensive and easy to install..
Be careful about having adiquate replacement air in your cabin. Yes 1" lathe. I'm using 1x3x8. Bought by the bundle. Pretty cheap. Install vertically at 16oc. Your going to need long enough screws or nails as you have an inch of foam and 3/4" wood. 1-3/4" . The fastener should penitrate at least the thickness of wood so 3-1/2" . I'm using timberlock screws. They are construction grade and will not bend 4" would work. Less holes is better. Try 2' between nails n check how sturdy it is. You may want to play around.
If you have a vaulted ceiling you need to decide where you want to add a piece of insulation. For me I will cut a 5/12 - 22 degree bevel cut on the top of the insulation board to match the lid. And add a inch or so on bottom. The bottom plate will keep it straight. Keep it up off the floor a bit 1/4"-3/8" above finish floor hight. I will install install window n door extensions by just adding a 3/4" x whatever debt of wall build out is. Probably leave a slight reveal on the face n it will blend right in. Then run the insulation to the jams. Should be a pretty easy job a look fan tas tic and last a long time. Stay warm n Merry Christmas

ICC
Member
# Posted: 22 Dec 2022 12:38
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Quoting: Aklogcabin
I'm using timberlock screws. They are construction grade and will not bend 4" would work. Less holes is better. Try 2' between nails n check how sturdy it is.


Fastenmaster has technical papers for their Headlok series which are used commonly for installing foam sheets and furring strips on the exterior. The principle would be the same inside. The charts show the spacing and number of Headlok needed for assorted foam thicknesses and weight of siding materials. I have no idea if the other Fastenmaster screw types have charts fo similar use. The Headlok are used for this as the large head offers much better pull thru strength. My entire house was done with them with 3 inches of exterior foam and Hardie cement fiber lap siding. In 2011. Looks like new still .

Fastenmaster has tech sheets on their website. The Headlok and foam sheet is here.

Aklogcabin
Member
# Posted: 23 Dec 2022 09:31
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Didn't know about those thanks. Just don't know if they are available around here. Pretty limited on supplies.
Hey mark11. I'm sure you will have a nice cabin when you're done. Post us up a picture

mark11
Member
# Posted: 27 Dec 2022 10:08
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Is there a reason for having furring strips? Can I just staple the rigid foam directly into the log and then add T&G ?

gcrank1
Member
# Posted: 27 Dec 2022 12:15
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Staples that long fired from what? Might work to handy-tack em down for initial fit but the f-strips do the hold down and provide a sorta leveled up nailer base for the wall boards.

mark11
Member
# Posted: 27 Dec 2022 12:28
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Quoting: gcrank1
Staples that long fired from what? Might work to handy-tack em down for initial fit but the f-strips do the hold down and provide a sorta leveled up nailer base for the wall boards.

Just a regular dewalt stable gun. Im trying to avoid putting nails into the logs basically. Also since Im putting T&G on top of 1" rigid foam Im thinking T&G itself is a strap.
Other than holding it down and leveled up - any other benefits to f-strips? Thanks

gcrank1
Member
# Posted: 27 Dec 2022 15:59
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Ummm
Trying to "avoid putting nails into the logs"; yer gonna be doing that if you nail the t&g direct anyway.
And the exposed log face is multiples of rounded surfaces, I suspect the t&g wont lay nicely on all those peaks and valleys? If you were going over a flat wall Id be inclined to think it would be ok; for logs, imo, no.

Brettny
Member
# Posted: 28 Dec 2022 11:00
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Putting furring strips on allows you to shim the wall in a way that you can get a plumb wall to put your tongue and grove onto. It's going to look terrible if your fasteners that are holding the tongue and grove on dont hit each log correctly.

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