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reddly
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# Posted: 5 Mar 2012 05:16
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The amount of questions, concerns, and ideas is ridiculous. I have no idea which forum to put this in or how to break it up. My mind is a jumble of ideas, my notebook page after page of scribbles and doodles. So some advice on even where to put this would be great.
Let me first say that I am a young individual, currently low on funds, and despite wanting to go off grid (completely) I am not concerned with the environment. My reasons are for privacy, long term savings, as well as a belief that the life style will be more rewarding. That being said I also have no desire to give up my tv, or internet nor many of the other simple luxuries that make life easier. I'm looking to blend cabin culture with sub-urban life.
The first question is design, I have been reading and am trying to find out more about a foundation, but I've hit a wall. I would like to use containers. To be specific, 5 containers, 2 bellow ground, 2 at ground level, and 1 as a second story. So the questions....
1)I'm curious about drainage issues and flooding of the bellow ground containers? along with that how to level the containers? I assume connecting them will just take some cutting, but then how to reseal the holes made so that there are no leaks?
2) power will be by solar, generator, and hopefully wind. If I'm extremely lucky one of the properties I'm considering will have a creek that I can use for hydro. That being said my understanding of these things is still limited. I'm having a hard time grasping how much power is required. So perhaps someone could help with some simple math and correct me if I'm wrong. an appliance drawing 200watts of power (I assume this is per hour?) if I wanted to run this appliance 24 hrs a day that means I require 4800 watts per day? that seems incredibly high. so from solar panels generating 120 watts per hr I would require 40 panels minimum (if everything worked at 100%) realistically we are talking more like 80 panels because the sun isn't shining all day. And the battery bank for that would be huge wouldn't it? I must be doing something wrong or thinking of this wrong, please help!?!?!
3) the generator I would like to use doesn't really appear to exist. I'm not sure how to explain this but basically I figured I could grow my own potatoes (and lots of them very easily). make some alcohol out of it, not sure how to purify it down to make it useable as a fuel source just yet but I'm sure it can be done and I am learning. With that in mind I figure there must be a generator out there that can use it? I've heard you can buy one, rejet it, re-do the hoses etcetcetc, this seems like a lot of work that I could botch. Or even worse destroy the generator at a really horrible time. So thoughts and ideas on simplifying?
4) heating in the winter. It does get quite cold where I'm looking. I'm not sure how to put in insulation inside the container? double pane windows. How do sky lights affect heating? As for actual heat, a wood stove would be primarily it. Other ideas?
On the flip side the cooling in the summer. I figure thats easier, ventilation just by opening the ends of the containers
I mean thats a start, I don't know if anyone can be of help but I'm at a loss for the moment. I have no doubt that I'll end up with so many more questions but those few are the biggest on my mind as road blocks for the moments.
any help, ideas, random thinkings, whatever you got I could use.
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reddly
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# Posted: 5 Mar 2012 07:24 - Edited by: reddly
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Sorry I see where I went wrong on my math for #2. I realize that with 40 panels it would take 1 hr to make the power for the entire day of 4800 watts. so i'll break this down into a per hour thing 200w used in 1 hr. means 2 solar panels at full go to take care of that power need. I will have to assume lack of efficiency, as well as account for hours without day light. probably more in the region of 6-8 panels to have a full 24hrs of an appliance running at 200w. this seems more realistic. But is it correct?????
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Martian
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# Posted: 5 Mar 2012 07:28
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For a person "low on funds" you sure are planning on spending a lot of it. I looked at container construction, but by the time I bought 40' containers, @ $1500 each, had them hauled to my spot, offloaded, and openings cut, it was cheaper to stick build. Google is your friend if you want to explore this idea.
Tom
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VTweekender
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# Posted: 5 Mar 2012 08:00 - Edited by: VTweekender
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You are fairly close on the solar after you revised your thoughts on it. There are some things to think about other than your math though. You said you are in a cold region so I will assume in the north. You will most likely only have 2 to 5 hours per day of good sun for the panels to draw from in the north, depending on exact location, I know where I am in Vt its only 2.2 hours of good sun. so if I have a 100 watt panel up the max I will get is 220 watts per day, chances are even less than that. If you google your area for "chart usable solar sunlight" you will come up with something. They recommend having a battery bank that is large enough to store at least 3 days wattage according to your daily use, thats in case of no sun for a few days, your battery bank is always 3 days ahead for you. If you want to run 200 watts per hour for 24 hours you are looking at a very large system. For instance if you were in VT like me, to have a system to run 4800 watts a day based on 2 hours daily average usable sun, you would have to have enough of a system to create 4800 watts in 2 hours, and a battery bank to store 3 times that for backup. That would be 2400 watts in panels, a very expensive charge controller, huge battery bank and many other expensive components of the system. I would say you would be in the $15,000 range for that system. That size system would compare to having approx. enough juice for a normal on-grid apartment life.
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spicyacres
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# Posted: 5 Mar 2012 08:31
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Quoting: reddly Let me first say that I am a young individual, currently low on funds, and despite wanting to go off grid (completely) I am not concerned with the environment. My reasons are for privacy, long term savings, as well as a belief that the life style will be more rewarding. That being said I also have no desire to give up my tv, or internet nor many of the other simple luxuries that make life easier. I'm looking to blend cabin culture with sub-urban life.
Where to start. Firstly, you won't be able to build much of anything without money - subprime mortgages for container cabins do not exist. You need building materials, you need equipment, you need tools, none of which are free and in fact all are inflating in price rapidly. Secondly, your lack of concern for the environment is troubling. An attitude like that will certainly lead to trouble with the local building inspector, and you'll also be unwelcome in whatever community you find yourself in. And thirdly, if you're not willing to give up on sub-urban luxuries, you will not survive off the grid, sorry for being so blunt.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 5 Mar 2012 11:07 - Edited by: MtnDon
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Work now, save money, build later.
Study and learn all you can now, save money, build later.
PV solar can make electricity; some places more than others. Mini hydro can be great if you have a stream and if you can legally use it. Windpower works in some places; not as many places as you might think. They all cost money. Generators cost money too. In the long run you'd be money ahead if you concentrated on PV, wind or hydro and think of a generator as something useful in an emergency. That's my opinion. I know it is possible to live off grid, make your power from the sun and wind and not have to use a generator at all. Location is important for that.
Containers are not meant for in ground burial. Their strength in in the 4 corners. They are meant to be stacked, not have sideways forces from being buried. A friend of mine in WA state has a neighbor who bought land with a buried container; the walls are all pushed in.
Plus I'm with Martin on their practicality, affordability and ease of use. They make good secure above ground storage though; ATV, tolls, even cars and trucks.
There are plenty of solar power calculators on the web. There's one here in the useful links and resources section.
Does your statement about you and the environment mean you are not a tree hugger and simply want to reduce your impact on the earth and have privacy or does that mean you don't care about where your waste goes or how what you do may affect other people?
Maybe grow food, enough so you can sell it for some of the money that's needed to buy things you can't make. Only so many hours in a day.
Getting land is the first thing and maybe the hardest. It can be difficult to get a loan on vacant land.
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reddly
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# Posted: 6 Mar 2012 06:30
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Perhaps I was a tad more negative than I should have been when I first posted.
First I wanted to say thankyou to everyone. I'm still reading and still learning. I've found a few links from this site that have been extremely helpful. More over I want to say thankyou to everyone that has responded. The biggest thing I need is help and advice the more of that the better I think I'll be able to do with this idea.
So by "low fund" let me clarify. spending 20k doesn't worry me. I live in a city where a shoe box of an apartment is sold for 400k and I feel like its completely hopeless and I will be in debt forever if I was to afford one of these. My last apartment was 1000sq ft, 2bed 2 bath, rent was 2200 a month and when it was listed it sold for 850k. I have no hope of affording this. I can however afford 80k on property, and 10k for some 20ft containers. I am fortunate enough to have a parent that owns a full machine shop and contract business so tools and even some materials may be donated or free to use. This includes even specialty tools for metal work, welding equipment, a crane, cutting torches etc. So from a financial perspective I do want to save as much as I can, I believe that doing a lot of this my self would be a great benefit to me and help broaden my horizons.
Spiceyacres, I perhaps worded my concern for the environment poorly. What I meant was not that I am not concerned for the environment in a negative, polluting, or dismissive way. I meant only to express that my motivations for making this choice are not at all to do with the environment. I've found that most forums, sites, or information is geared towards being environmentally friendly. I feel that by going on to solar and wind power the environmental benefits are simply a very positive side effect. If you were to tell me that I had to use a propane generator to accomplish what I wanted I would use that instead. That was all that I meant. I have no intention of harming the environment or disregarding local regulations. Simply that I am not trying to go green, only off the grid.
As for suburban luxuries, I meant simply that I've read forums and blogs about people with internet and tv. I know that there are homes that are off grid with low power washer and dryer (though I always felt a line was fine for drying clothing). I meant that I don't want to live in a box without a light to use, without a tv to watch, I have no issue with using satellite for both net/tv. I don't require a dishwasher or large fridge. But a fridge, RV size would be nice, a chest freezer would be wonderful. something as simple as being able to have some kind of hot water for a shower (it can be gravity fed) would be absolutely amazing. I have no doubt a lot of these things will require more initial effort but these are the things that appeal to me and I believe that they are possible.
I had never considered the forces on the side walls of the containers. I'll have to find another solution for a cellar/pantry. Thankyou very much. That alone was mind blowing haha, just something that I have never thought of.
I had only considered farming certain things on the land, potatoes because I do want to brew my own alcohol for a fuel source. There may be other things more along the lines of fruit but I know apple trees and what not attract bears. Grown up with large wild life close by but I'm not a fan of having a bear sitting in my front yard.
The particular land I was thinking of I might use as a weekend retreat for avid paint ballers or some such thing. Just a random thought. All in all I have no idea what to use all of the land for, snowmobiling, atving, camping, boating, fishing. I'm not really sure.
at anyrate I wanted to say a REALLY BIG THANKYOU again. If any more thoughts ideas, anything comes to someones mind I'm all ears.
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reddly
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# Posted: 6 Mar 2012 06:51
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I did manage to find a video of a container being used as an underground shelter. I may have to contact the person to ask exactly how it was accomplished but from the looks of it the underground shelter was just a hole dug, a few feet wider than the container itself. The sunk container was covered by heavy steal sheets, then concrete and then earth. The walls of the hole were about 2 ft back from the container wall and they used stucco to cover them. This might prevent cave in and putting force on the container?
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spicyacres
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# Posted: 6 Mar 2012 09:19
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My advice for what it's worth would be to focus your time and budget on finding a nice property and skip building a cabin. I sense that one of your primary goals is investment, and secondarily to use the land for occasional recreation. Maybe camp there when you visit, or buy a used travel trailer and park it there? Your building plans are ambitious, but if you're not actually going to live there full time off-the-grid, you'll make better use of your resources by not building and putting all your budget into the land itself.
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trollbridge
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# Posted: 6 Mar 2012 09:37
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Welcome reddly!!!
You have picked the right place to come for advice. There will be many different thoughts from members and your own thoughts will morph and become more concrete the more research and time that you put into it especially because you are still in the beginning of the information gathering process!
I wish you the best of luck...keep researching and sorting your thoughts. After time you will know where your head is leading you!
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 6 Mar 2012 19:02
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I'd work on a chunk of land, then everythign else will fall into place over time and at a pace you can afford.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 6 Mar 2012 19:28
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Your additional info makes this seem like a whole new ballgame. 
As has been said, concentrate looking for land and looking at the limitations that may come along with it. And be sure you'd be satisfied with something that fell under the PA RCA rules. I know those rules would limit me.
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reddly
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# Posted: 8 Mar 2012 08:04
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back to one of my first questions. Has anyone made a cabin with a cellar? or even a bunker I would settle for that. just curious about how to deal with water drainage issues
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 9 Mar 2012 00:48
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friends in Alaska used a shipping container buried for storage. The wall failure hasn't been an issue, but they're in good gravel which might make a difference. And they have very little weight on the top -- not a whole house worth like you're considering.
They get some water leakage over time. you're likely to put holes in it -- power, plumbing, some way to move fresh air in and damp air out, etc. All chances for water issues. Also, it seems like living in one leaves you sort of stuck if you change your mind on design. We've tinkered with windows, thought about adding on, etc. All a lot easier with stick built. Plus, you'll end up framing the inside anyway to put up insulation, windows, etc.
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Martian
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# Posted: 9 Mar 2012 08:24
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Quoting: reddly back to one of my first questions. Has anyone made a cabin with a cellar? or even a bunker I would settle for that. just curious about how to deal with water drainage issues
If you are on a hill, its easy to set up a french drain system. That's perforated pipe around the perimeter buried in crushed rock/gravel that drains the water off. If you are on a flat, you'll need to have a sump with pump.
Tom
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