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countryred
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# Posted: 27 Apr 2012 21:43
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Anyone using an underground water cistern ? We have been kicking around the idea of having one ,300 plus gallon, and saving rain water by running a pipe from the guttering.
Anyone doing this and how does it work in cold temps?
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 27 Apr 2012 21:53
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We have a 325 spherical underground cistern. We do not collect rain water into that one; we truck that water at present. As for cold temps, the same sort of thought applies to a cistern as to how deep do foundation footings have to be. If frost depth is 3 feet then the top of the water level better be at least three feet down and buried. Ours is not quite deep enough so I had to come up with workarounds to deal with the freezing. Just a bother I could have prevented with an extra foot of depth.
We do collect rain water for irrigation in a surface tank.
Note buried spherical tanks can be emptied completely, unless your ground water water table is high, whereas the loaf style tanks need to have 25% minimum left in them at all times.
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cabinbiscuits
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# Posted: 28 Apr 2012 00:07
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My plan is to bury a 325 gallon IBC tank below the frost line and use the downspout with a first flow diverter to feed it year round. So I hope it will work. No way to do a well on our property.
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countryred
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# Posted: 28 Apr 2012 11:40
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The freezing issue is my biggest concern, not only of the tank but the lines running from the guttering. Frost in south Mo. normally isnt too deep..,thinking 1-2', so putting them at 3' should be ok.
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cabinbiscuits
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# Posted: 28 Apr 2012 13:49
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Yeah that is one of my concerns as well. It may take some experimenting to get things to where they are reliable in freezing temps.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 28 Apr 2012 15:12
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If you are using good size down pipe I don't think you should have any freeze problem there. What sort of pump and piping are you thinking of using to draw the water from the cistern though?
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Icebear
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# Posted: 28 Apr 2012 15:24
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In the Alpine Club hut I use over winter on the mountain the water tank is below the floor, and partially buried. The tank is insulated, but still has freezing issues. It is protected from the worst of the winds, and from snow/ice because it is essentially inside the building envelope, although there is no insulation in the sub-floor.
It works very well for climbers and it isn't possible to excavate in the national park. For a full time house I'd want to bury it completely!
You will need some retaining around an INC tank won't you? The loading from the backfil will probably crush the tank when the water level goes down.
Also think about the overflow, you don't want that freezing over either.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 28 Apr 2012 15:46
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Quoting: Icebear You will need some retaining around an IBC tank won't you?
I googled IBC tank as it didn't ring any bells right off. Yes, those tanks will crush if not buried in a well cribbed hole. You'd need a close fitted crib with a top that could withstand the 2 or more feet of dirt necessary to insulate it.
Good point on how to handle the overflow, icebear.
The spherical tank we used has a 24" diameter manhole extension that is 24" tall. More than one sleeve can be used and they are sealed to the tank and each other with a gasket and silicone. So the dirt can be piled on, yet the tank still can be accessed for whatever maintenance down the road.
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millerke
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# Posted: 28 Apr 2012 16:49
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I will be putting in two 1,000 gallon tanks under my cabin in a insulated room for winter use. I have a natural spring up the road from me that has plenty of water for drinking. So I will fill a 300 gallon tank of spring water for drinking purposes. For Warmer weather, an outside 3,000 gallon tank for rainwater harvesting which will be used for showers, washing clothes and washing dishes (Filtered of course).
Also a Berkey Water Filter to filter out sediment of the Natural Spring Water. For the Tanks in the insulated room, you just need to make sure the temperature remains above freezing. It's not Rocket Science.
Insulate pipes and walls and pumps. Use a 100 Watt Light Bulb on days that are really cold.
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countryred
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# Posted: 28 Apr 2012 17:29 - Edited by: countryred
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Thinking of a 2" PVC pipe straight down from each gutter to 3' below the top of ground, over to the cistern,,maybe 20-50' from the cabin. Only need 1 access port to the top of the cistern in case we need to haul water in during dry times and work on pump. Install a pump inside the cistern with a 1" PVC running from the cistern/ pump to the cabin. Pressure switch and water filter inside the cabin. The area where pipe comes up under or along the house is where I am most concerned about freezing.
Only having 1 toilet, 1 shower/ tub, 2 sinks and a washer. It will be our main house in a few years.
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cabinbiscuits
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# Posted: 28 Apr 2012 20:05
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In my case I agree entirely with you guys, the hole and fill over the tank will have be cribbed well to prevent collapse. I had thought of that too but thank you guys for pointing it out in case I missed it.
I haven't figured out what kind of pipe I'm going to use to get the water out of the tank and into the building without freezing
I thought about sleeving a piece of galvanized (since we won't drink from it anyway ) pipe through a piece of 8" PVC that I have and then filling the 8" with expanding foam for insulation.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 28 Apr 2012 20:29
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Is the cabin raised off the ground or is there a crawl space that could have a section heated and insulated where the pipe goes from ground to cabin? The pipe within an insulated pipe may work depending on how cold it gets and the time between drawing water from the cistern. Insulation slows down heat flow, it doesn't eliminate it. And being collected water you're not going to want to use the leave a tap drip idea to prevent freezing. Or do you have a power grid connection so you could use a heat tape with a built in thermostat to tuen on as is needed?
If you use a submersible pump in the bottom of the tank you could try the same trick that is used for deep well hand pumps. Those have the lift part of the pump down in the deep water with a small hole, maybe 1/16" in the "up" pipe someplace around the 5 or 6 foot mark (from the top). That is small enough to not cause a lot of water loss when pumping, and let's the water level fall back to the little hole. If the upper section of pipe going from the cistern to the cabin has no low spots where water can collect there's nothing to freeze. Something like that should work if there is a small tank in the cabin where it's warm to act as the ready to use supply. A friend has a 165 foot deep hand pumped well that uses that idea to prevent freezing in the drop pipe.
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countryred
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# Posted: 29 Apr 2012 15:29
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Thinking railroad ties on top of gravel, so a small air space below the cabin. We will be on the electric grid so I could use the heat tape where the pipe comes out of the ground along with a 3" PVC pipe with insulation in it around the 1" PVC pipe.
We will be living there full time so 20 or so gallons through it every day.
That 1/16th hole sounds like a good idea, just wondering how that affect the pressure switch location.
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Sustainusfarm
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# Posted: 29 Apr 2012 15:42
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How do you know if the tank is rated to be buried? I see many "water tanks" at home stores...how do I know if it can be buried..it doesn't say anywhere on the product?
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 29 Apr 2012 15:53
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I think we misunderstand each other. The drain back hole will cause havoc in a typical well pressure pump system. If the pump in the cistern is supplying pressurized water to the fixtures the hole will cause the pump to cycle continuously. It would be like leaving a tap cracked open except the water would be kept in the cistern instead of going down the drain. A pump used with a drainback hole in the downpipe would push water up to an second, smaller tank with a float switch in it. The float would turn the pump in the cistern on and off. Then from the second small tank, another pump (like an RV pressure pump) supply pressurized water to the fixtures on demand.
Hope that is clear.
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countryred
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# Posted: 29 Apr 2012 18:57
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ohh,.ok..yeah I am with you now. That makes more sense. Not up on plumbing skills just yet,. seemed like the pump would just run a lot..lol
I think tanks will be beefed up for underground use, and should be classed as such ( I think),...The sphere ones are think are used that way.
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